Someone can lose their salvation?

[SHW]

Originally posted by ncgolf: That mark grafts us unto Christ … makes us “in Christ” … sin seperates us from Christ and if one dies in that seperation … one is seperated eternally by finally being “cut off”. The grafted vine remains grafted until such a time when it must be “cut off” … for us that time is death."

**We are cut off the vine immediately when we commit a mortal sin. **We have defiled our temples; and God who was abiding in us; no longer abides in us, because He cannot live in a defiled temple.

Our souls are dead spiritually and will remain dead until/unless we repent, confess, etc. We cannot be saved if God is not abiding in us (and us in him) when we die. We cannot live spiritually apart from the Vine (Christ) and we cannot inherit eternal life unless we (branches) are still attached to the Vine at death.

We must be attached to the Vine in order to be spiritually alive.

SHW

 

[ncgolf]

We are cut off the vine immediately when we commit a mortal sin. We have defiled our temples; and God who was abiding in us; no longer abides in us, because He cannot live in a defiled temple.

Our souls are dead spiritually and will remain dead until/unless we repent, confess, etc. We cannot be saved if God is not abiding in us (and us in him) when we die. We cannot live spiritually apart from the Vine (Christ) and we cannot inherit eternal life unless we (branches) are still attached to the Vine at death.

We must be attached to the Vine in order to be spiritually alive.

SHW

Ah yes … I see what I wrote … I stand corrected … thanks.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, the exercise of divine grace based on the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Not (never) the works of the believer."For by grace you have been saved through FAITH;…the gift of God, not as a result of works…"But the works are not the basis on which God God justifies/saves the believer:Rom 3:21-24 "But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified (how?) as a gift (by what? Our works? NO!) by His grace through what?) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"Not through the believer’s works.Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"The true believer was regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit at the time of faith in Christ’s redemptive work on his behalf.

Moondweller, I don’t see how you can support your Faith only sotierology with Romans 3 when one Chapter earlier, in Roman’s two , Paul says (vs 5-16):

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. **For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. **For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

Now, how do you reconcile a Faith only sotierology based on Romans 3, when Paul says we will be judged based on our works in Romans 2? Is Paul just being inconsistent or is it as we teach that you need both Faith and Works. Faith is required for redemption but works are required to demonstrate sanctification and to stay in the state of Grace.

Moondweller, how do deal with this problem for your sotierology?

 

[guanophore]

“Infused grace” is uniquely Catholic

Actually, it is not. All the Churches founded by Apostles retain this understanding of saving grace, even those who have no love lost on Rome.

It is the Reformed notion of imputation (without infusion) that is a modern invention.

(it’s not even Biblical).

Sure it is! You just can’t “see” it because you are reading scripture with anti-catholic blinders.

So YOU should know the answers to ALL these questions. I myself would like to know the answers to the second and third. We already know Catholics believe the “infusion” supposedly takes place at baptism.

True.

Also, does a Catholic “feel” this “infused grace” leave the soul when he/she sins?

I think some people do.

None of this is Biblical (based on divine Revelation),

Such a statement seems to presuppose that Divine Revelation is limited to the Scriptures.

You are right, though. None of Catholic Theology is bible based. It is all Divine Revelation, but comes from the person of Jesus. This revelation was deposited once and for all with the saints prior to a word of the NT ever being written.

It is true that so it must be experiential.

This does not make any sense.

What does it feel like for the “infusion” to leave the soul and return again after the sacrament of reconciliation?

Apparently you are suggesting that Divine events be judged on the basis of human emotion. This would be a grave error.

Jesus seals us with His promised HS. This is a spiritual event which occurs because Jesus says it does, whether a person ‘feels’ differently, or not.

 

[guanophore]

No Jew, who was under the Law, could keep the Law, period.

Do you think that God was fond of lawbreakers? How is it that Elijah could be taken up, if He was unclean? How is it that David found favor in God’s sight?

How is it Daniel could claim that God saved him because he was “blameless”?

Dan 6:21-22
22 My God sent his angel and shut the lions’ mouths, and they have not hurt me, because I was found blameless before him; and also before you, O king, I have done no wrong."

People can keep the law by grace, through faith. God’s plan of salvation has not changed. People have always been saved by grace, through faith. This also how the Apostles kept the Law.

Luke 1:5-6

5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

If no one can keep the law, how can 'ol Zachy and Elizabeth be blameless and righteous before God - keeping all the ordinances?

They did this by grace, through faith.

 Even the Decalogue is called a ministry of *condemnation* of and *death* (2 Cor. 3:6-9).  All the Law could do is expose and remind the one under that covenant of sins years after year after year.  The Decalogue exposed sins, the sacrifices reminded the sinner of them (Heb. 10:1-4).Rom 3:19-24 "Now we know that whatever the Law says, **it speaks to those who are under the Law**, **so that** every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through law {comes} the knowledge of sin. **But now apart from** law {the} ***righteousness of God ***has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, ***even {the} righteousness of God through faith*** in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ***being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus***;"

Right. It is not the keeping of ordinances that justified Elijah, David, Daniel, Zachariah, and Elisabeth. They practiced the obedience of faith. Their faith was made perfect by their works, just as James explains. We can keep the commandments of God by grace, through faith.

You Catholics are stuck in the wrong (even obsolete) covenant. That’s why you put your hope and faith in works, rather than the work that was accomplished for you, once for all. But those works can never save you, in the end they’ll condemn you.

I understand that you must persistently cling to this misunderstanding of Catholicism. I suppose, if you were to admit it is a lie, then you would have to become Catholic!

You are clinging to an erroneous understanding of Catholcism. What you cannot seem to accept is that we have died, and our life is hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:3). It is no longer we ourselves who live, but Christ that lives in us.

Gal 2:20-21
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

It is Christ living in us that enables us to will and to do His good pleasure. We live by faith in the son of God, and not by the flesh. For the works of the flesh are of no benefit.

 

[guanophore]

Let’s stick with “infused grace” for a while. Please give me your answers to your second and third question based on your experience as a Catholic.

It is a very grave error to attempt to understand the Divine Mysteries or explain them in the light of our limited human experience and capabilities. We apprehend the truths of God by faith, not by sight, or “experience”. Christianity is not about “feeling” God, or not.

 

[guanophore]

If sin can’t “erase” this “mark” of divine righteousness on the soul, then you cannot lose it (and salvation) by committing a mortal sin.

This is a false statement.

In the OT, we have a shadow of this. We see the indelible mark of circumcision, yet it is clear that not all who received the mark acted in accordance with it, and lost the privileges that were intended for God’s chosen.

Acts 7:51-53

51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, 53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”

If, according to Catholicism, one is saved/justified at the moment of ritual baptism, and by the act of baptism the “mark” of righteousness is miraculously infused onto the soul, and this “mark” of divine righteousness can’t be “erased” by sin, then one must conclude, contrary to other Catholic doctrines, that Catholics cannot lose salvation.

Being “sealed” by the Spirit does not mean that one will inherit the prize. The seal here is like the one used to seal a scroll with wax. It is imprinted by the authorized writer of the letter.

Eph 1:12-14
13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

The seal is a guarantee, a promise, a pledge. It makes the recipient eligible, but the recipient does not necessarily collect.

If that mark is a sign of salvation. Otherwise you’re contradicting what you state about not erasing the “mark.”

Yes, the mark is a sign of salvation, just as circumcision was a sign of being a member of God’s covenant people. However, not all the circumcised inherited the promises, did they?

Along those lines, do you think Ananias and Sapphira were saved? They were baptised Christians, and members of the community.

That sounds like a process. But if a Catholic can actually lose the “state of grace” he received upon ritual baptism, and that by sin, then it’s immediate, not gradual.

It is both! When the soul is sealed by the HS, all personal and original sin is washed away. They are like newborn babes (only even cleaner!). If a person were to die in this pristine state of grace, then yes, salvation would be immediate.

However, most don’t die immediately. Most folks live a long time after baptism,a nd have many opportunities to give way to the desires of the flesh, and lose their inheritance in the Kingdom.’

I would think I would hear Catholics screaming out in agony somewhere, everyday, "*My God, my God, why have you forsaken me"*.

You know, if so many people did not have their consciences seared as with a hot iron, I am sure you would! THey sure were on 9/11, but it has worn off again already.

Peace with God. I felt this the moment I believed and do to this very moment. I fully relate, experientially, to Paul’s words:Rom 5:1-2 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”

It is a great blessing to feel peace with God. However, if a person does not have these “feelings” that does not mean a person has not been put in a right relationship with God by grace, through faith. For some, the feelings take a long time to follow.
moondweller;4845101:

And I’ve sinned many times since I believed.

Are you saying that you still have peace with God when you grieve the HS?

As you can read by the above quote, Paul, after faith in Christ never was in a spiritually rotting mode. His struggled with sin and the Law, as recorded in Romans seven, ended when he turned, by faith

, to Christ:Rom 7:24-25 "Wretched man that I am! Who (not “what”) will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!Why? Because Paul teaches:Rom 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

No one has suggested that he was “rotting”. Just that he did not have presumption about salvation. He expressed the humility that he did not judge himself to be worthy, but left the judgement to God. He said that the “mature” attitude was not to consider that one had already obtained salvation.

Phil 3:13-16
13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

This is why I say that OSAS is an immature attitude.

 

[guanophore]

The character or mark given at baptism cannot be removed by sin. The mark does not save you. We are marked as disciples of Christ. Sanctifying grace saves you.

If you defile your temple, then you are no longer saved, but the mark remains. The mark shows that you were redeemed. Hopefully you will remain redeemed and die redeemed. Your own free will choices determine if you die “in Christ” which means dying with sanctifying grace on/in your soul.

SHW

Excellent bunch of posts.

 

[moondweller]

Now, how do you reconcile a Faith only sotierology based on Romans 3, when Paul says we will be judged based on our works in Romans 2? Is Paul just being inconsistent or is it as we teach that you need both Faith and Works. Faith is required for redemption but works are required to demonstrate sanctification and to stay in the state of Grace.

This is a good example of eisegesis and lifting a passage right out of its context.

First of all, Paul doesn’t say that God will “save” or even “justify” anyone based on their deeds, but will “render to each man according to his deeds.” Nowhere in the Scriptures, Old or New Testaments, does it say God will save anyone according to their deeds.

But let’s back up a few verses. In Rom. 1:16-17 Paul presents the gospel in this light:Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."Paul does not present the gospel as men being judged righteous by their deeds, but that the good news (gospel) of Jesus Christ has the power of God to save everyone “who believes.”

Paul then in Rom. 1:18 - 2:17 reveals the stages of Gentile unbelief, stating that though they had the witness of God within they didn’t honor Him as God or give thanks, but became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened, exchanging the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of men and animals (1:21-23). So God gave them over to the lusts of their hearts, and they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped creatures rather than the creator. Pagan, Gentile history bears this out, from Babylon to Rome; from India to the American Indian.

After the Gentiles Paul then presents his case concerning the Jews to whom God revealed Himself, committing to them in covenant form (1:17-29). But they failed, thinking that Judaism was simply about outward, commandment keeping (like the religious “Christian” today), but, says Paul, a Jew is one who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit; not the letter (Commandment keeping, Rom. 2:28-29). Christendom carries on this same error with ritual baptism.

Yes, Paul does state in Rom. 2 the general truth that God will render to each man according to his deeds, “to the Jew first and also the Greek” (2:9-10). But you can’t take these statements out of the context of the case Paul is building, culminating in chapter three. Paul’s not in any way teaching the possibility of salvation by works (deeds) but is, rather, in chapters one and two, showing why ALL men, without exception, are LOST. He brings his reader in Rome to the harsh reality that no man, Jew or Gentile, has continued in doing good, nor is any man a true doer of the Law, but that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin” (Rom. 3:9); and he presents through Scripture this sweeping charge from a divine perspective:Rom 3:10 "as it is written, “There is NONE righteous, not even one; there is NONE who understands, there is NONE who seeks for God; ALL have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is NONE who does good, there is NOT EVEN ONE…” (cf. Is. 53:6)Whether Jew or Gentile, ALL humanity is “under sin” (3:9) It’s been that way since the fall in the Garden. All humanity (Adam’s posterity) are born sinners.

But Paul doesn’t leave his readers in such despair. He was commissioned with the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ. Though God will render to each man according to his deeds, divine righteousness, OTOH, is gifted by God according to faith, and faith alone…Rom 3:22-23 “…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for ALL (both Jew and Gentile) sinned (in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift (how?) by His grace through what? Deeds? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (the cross, His shed blood & sacrificial death)The purpose of Paul’s letter to the believers at Rome is to show that God has not left man in despair, but planned his redemption from all eternity. And that through faith in his Redeemer.

Continued to next post:

 

[moondweller]

Continued from previous post # 827:

In chapters one and two Paul presents the pitiful, lost condition of all humanity, Jew and Genile alike. But he doesn’t leave his readers there (as you seem to want to), but brings them to Christ (His Person and work) and the gift of divine righteousness which comes, not by deeds, but through faith in Him, alone.Rom 3:27-30 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works (deeds)? NO, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only (those under law)? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also (those not under law)? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised (Jew) by faith and the uncircumcised (Gentile) through faith is one."Yes, God will truly render to each person according to his deeds, but what He renders to the true believer, whom He, by grace, saves and reckons righteous according to faith, will be vastly different from those who seek righteousness according to their deeds (works), “to the Jew first and also to the Greek” (Gentile).

The former, by grace through faith, enter eternal life; the latter (in unbelief) the “second death.” The latter, who seek righteousness by deeds, will be terribly disappointed when God truly does render to each of them accordingly (especially the religiously pious); since God has already revealed in His written Word:"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;Hence, God justifies (reckons righteousness) by His grace through faith in Christ alone:Rom 4:5-6 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works (deeds):”

Moondweller, how do deal with this problem for your sotierology?

How do I reconcile my soteriology with Rom. 2:6? By interpreting it in context. Context, Paul, always CONTEXT!!! And in doing so, you see it’s not me who has the problem, but you. A serious one, “indeed” (pun intended).

 

[SHW]

First of all, Paul doesn’t say that God will “save” or even “justify” anyone based on their deeds, but will “render to each man according to his deeds.” Nowhere in the Scriptures, Old or New Testaments, does it say God will save anyone according to their deeds.

No one can be reconciled to God except by Jesus’ mediation (His death on the cross.) No works of the law or righteous works can atone for Adam’s sin. (Romans 5)

However, after He atones for Adam’s sin by His death and reconciles us to His Father, then we have to continue in this reconciliation by fearing God and doing works of righteousness in order to inherit eternal life.

“There is none righteous, no, not one” is referring to Psalms 14:1-3 and 53:1-3.

No one alive is righteous at the time that these Psalms were written because Jesus had not been born yet and had not redeemed us from Adam’s sin which had made us enemies of God. Jesus is righteous.

However, after Jesus reconciled us to His Father by His death, we are made righteous by Baptism because **Baptism sanctifies us and justifies us.
**
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Who does God accept for salvation (eternal life)?

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

How does He judge us so that we can be found worthy to inherit eternal life?

1 Peter 1:16-17 "because it is written, ‘Be holy, for I am holy.’ “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

He judges us according to our works. We must fear Him (love Him and obey His commandments) and we must also work righteousness (produce good fruit/works) in order to continue to be saved (reconciled to God) and inherit eternal life.

Original post by moondweller: Paul does not present the gospel as men being judged righteous by their deeds, but that the good news (gospel) of Jesus Christ has the power of God to save everyone “who believes.”

If you do not obey the gospel, then you do not believe. If you do not obey the gospel (obey commandments, produce good fruits/works, etc.), then you do not have “faith.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”
**
First Jesus reconciles us to His Father, then we maintain this reconciliation by “fearing Him and working righteousness” until we die.**

SHW

 

[moondweller]

No one can be reconciled to God except by Jesus’ mediation (His death on the cross.) No works of the law or righteous works can atone for Adam’s sin. (Romans 5)

Agreed!

However

Disagree. There is no “however” in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

after He atones for Adam’s sin by His death

Christ didn’t “atone” for merely for Adam’s sin, but those of the whole whole world (Jn. 1:29) cf:1 Pet 2:24 “…and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,”

Is 53:5 "But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;

Is 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see {it and} be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.Notice the plural for sins and iniquities.

and reconciles us to His Father,

Men are reconciled to God, once for all, at the time of faith through the death of Christ on the cross (Col. 1:22).

The believer, who has been redeemed then we have to continue in this reconciliation by fearing God and doing works of righteousness in order to inherit eternal life.

According to SCRIPTURE, the only One who maintains the believer’s new standing with God is the resurrected Christ Himself through His High Priestly work in heaven as the believer’s Intercessor and Advocate before the Father (Heb. 7:25; 1 Jn. 2:1). Redeemed means that the believer now belongs to God - “ransomed” (Mk. 10:45; 1 Tim. 2:6; cf. 1 Cor. 6:19-20; 7:;23).

“There is none righteous, no, not one” is referring to Psalms 14:1-3 and 53:1-3.

No one alive is righteous at the time that these Psalms were written because Jesus had not been born yet and had not redeemed us from Adam’s sin which had made us enemies of God. Jesus is righteous.

Paul used those passages as teaching texts. He was making a doctrinal statement about the lost condition of all humanity. Even in the Psalms it’s stated as a general statement.

However, after Jesus reconciled us to His Father by His death, we are made righteous by Baptism because Baptism sanctifies us and justifies us.

Where does it say “baptism” sanctifies and justifies anyone?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

That’s right. That’s what the believers in Corinth WERE. But, says Paul, they’re washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus and by the Holy Spirit. They’re no longer identified by those epithets. They’re redeemed, reconciled, justified and yet to be glorified “saints” through faith in Jesus Christ.

Who does God accept for salvation (eternal life)?
Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

Of course. These are those who believed in Jesus Christ and through faith in Him God Himself SAVED them. But God justifies the “ungodly” through faith in Jesus Christ (Rom. 4:5).

How does He judge us so that we can be found worthy to inherit eternal life?

1 Peter 1:16-17 "because it is written, ‘Be holy, for I am holy.’ “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

It’s the redeemed, the chosen, the born again, the inheritors of eternal life, who are protected by the power of God, that Peter is addressing (see 1 Pet. 1:1-5)

He judges us according to our works. We must fear Him (love Him and obey His commandments) and we must also work righteousness (produce good fruit/works) in order to continue to be saved (reconciled to God) and inherit eternal life.

According to the Scriptures the redeemed are gifted righteousness through faith (Rom. 3:24), gifted salvation through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), and gifted eternal life through faith in Christ (Rom. 6:23).

If you do not obey the gospel, then you do not believe.

One obeys the gospel by believing it’s message of Jesus Christ and His redemptive work on their behalf. It’s called “obedience of faith.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

You’re not describing a believer here. CONTEXT, my friend, CONTEXT.

First Jesus reconciles us to His Father, then we maintain this reconciliation by “fearing Him and working righteousness” until we die.

Wrong gospel (Gal. 1:6-9; Eph. 2:8-9).

 

[ncgolf]

**Where does it say “baptism” sanctifies and justifies anyone?**Jesus commands them to make disciples and baptize … then tells them to observe all He has commanded. I imagine you will context this like a tobacco lawyer … but this is “after” the Resurrection. Why would Jesus command this only to have Paul countermand this teaching. If the observance of this command would be useless … then it would be like circumcision so why would Christ command a useless practice.

I guess it could be the old stand by … symbolic.

Matthew 28:19-20

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

 

[moondweller]

guanophore:

Actually, it is not. All the Churches founded by Apostles retain this understanding of saving grace, even those who have no love lost on Rome.

Really? Can you quote an elder from the 1st Cen. using the phrase “infused righteousness,” say, from the church at Ephesus? Any of the churches in the region of Galatia? How about Iconium? Antioch? Corinth?

It is the Reformed notion of imputation (without infusion) that is a modern invention.

Actually, since the term isn’t used in Scripture, I’d say “infused” is the novel idea. Paul uses the word “reckoned” an awful lot in respect to righteousness, but never “infused.”

Sure it is! You just can’t “see” it because you are reading scripture with anti-catholic blinders.

Then does that mean you’re wearing anti-Biblical blinders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moondweller
Also, does a Catholic “feel” this “infused grace” leave the soul when he/she sins?

Quote:
I think some people do.

You think?

Such a statement seems to presuppose that Divine Revelation is limited to the Scriptures.

I know of nothing else that can prove differently.

You are right, though. None of Catholic Theology is bible based. It is all Divine Revelation, but comes from the person of Jesus. This revelation was deposited once and for all with the saints prior to a word of the NT ever being written.

Proof?

Strange, though, that NONE of the writers used the word “infused” in relation to divine righteousness. I wonder why Paul would begin using the word “infused,” and then for the Scriptures use the word “reckon.” Do you have any “tradition” posited to explain this phenomenon?

Jesus seals us with His promised HS. This is a spiritual event which occurs because Jesus says it does, whether a person ‘feels’ differently, or not.

Actually Paul is the one who said all true believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit and that for the “day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). This is an eternal security verse. It’s speaking of a security and a permanency for the believer. Though we may grieve the Holy Spirit in whom we’re sealed, He will never leave us. We’re sealed until our redemption is complete, i.e., the glorification of our yet unredeemed, physical bodies.

In Eph. 1:13 Paul reveals to all true believers that, not at the time of baptism, but after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of our salvation, having BELIEVED, we were sealed in Him (Christ) with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge (or, down payment, earnest) of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession. The “redemption” is referring to the revealing of the redemption of WHOLE man: body, soul and spirit. Presently the believer’s spirit and soul are redeemed, the body is yet future (see Phil. 3:20-21). This is ALL eternal security. AKA OSAS.

Do you think that God was fond of lawbreakers? How is it that Elijah could be taken up, if He was unclean? How is it that David found favor in God’s sight?

All these were men of FAITH. Jesus ransomed them with His blood, as well. “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”

How is it Daniel could claim that God saved him because he was “blameless”?

He was saved from the lions’ jaws. But he was also redeemed by the blood and sacrificial blood of the incarnate Son. He did nothing wrong to be thrown into the lion’s den. You know that.

5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

This means they were devout in Judaism. They practiced it according to the commandments of the Law. Paul said of himself: “…as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless” (Phil. 3:6). But when it comes to the righteousness in respect to salvation and justification he sayshil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"Paul, more than anyone, understood that the Law could not impart (Divine) righteousness. Through law comes the knowledge of SIN (Rom. 3:20). Even the Decalogue is called a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7-9).

We can keep the commandments of God by grace, through faith.

Rom 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (i.e., commandments).

It is both! When the soul is sealed by the HS, all personal and original sin is washed away. They are like newborn babes (only even cleaner!). If a person were to die in this pristine state of grace, then yes, salvation would be immediate.

No, my friend, it’s those who have been reckoned righteous through faith in Christ (justified), redeemed by His blood, forgiven of ALL sins, forever reconciled to God, sanctified as “saints,” now in Christ, that have been indwelt and sealed securely by the H.S. of promise “until the day of redemption” of their yet unredeemed bodies (Phil. 3:20-21).

Are you saying that you still have peace with God when you grieve the HS?

See Rom. 4:25 - 5:1-2.

 

[moondweller]

Jesus commands them to make disciples and baptize … then tells them to observe all He has commanded. I imagine you will context this like a tobacco lawyer … but this is “after” the Resurrection. Why would Jesus command this only to have Paul countermand this teaching. If the observance of this command would be useless … then it would be like circumcision so why would Christ command a useless practice.

I guess it could be the old stand by … symbolic.

Matthew 28:19-20

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

States nothing about baptism sanctifying or justifying anyone. Looks those words up in a concordance and the related verses.

 

[Matariel]

States nothing about baptism sanctifying or justifying anyone. Looks those words up in a concordance and the related verses.

I don’t see what this has to do with “Someone Can Lose Their Salvation” (the title of the thread)?

Maybe we can get back ontrack.

 

[guanophore]

Can you quote an elder from the 1st Cen. using the phrase "infused righteousness,ctually, since the term isn’t used in Scripture, I’d say “infused” is the novel idea.

No, any more than I can quote them using the word “Trinity”, or “hypostatic union”. The absence of these words in the literature, however, does not mean that this is not the belief of the Church. The Apostles taught the Trinity, the hypostatic union, and infused righteousness. This is why these terms were later developed. What is “novel”, Moon, is the notion that our righteousness is not “real” but only declared. This novel idea appeared some 1500 years after the Apostles’ teaching, and was not known to Christendom prior to that time.

Paul uses the word “reckoned” an awful lot in respect to righteousness, but never “infused.”

“Reckoned” is an accounting term. When credit is applied to an account, it is not just doctoring the books. The money is actually applied.

Strange, though, that NONE of the writers used the word “infused” in relation to divine righteousness.

I don’t find it any stranger than the concept if imputation without substance.

I wonder why Paul would begin using the word “infused,” and then for the Scriptures use the word “reckon.”

It is not the use of the terms we have a dispute about, Moon, but their meaning. When Paul writes about righteousness being “reckoned”, the Apostles taught that the application was actual, not just “stated”. The Reformed tradition is that the rightousness does not really exist in the person. That is where we get the concept of the “snow covered dunghill”. It emanates from a faulty understanding of the human condition after the fall (depravity). the Reformed understanding is that God no longer considers humanity “good” after the fall.

Do you have any “tradition” posited to explain this phenomenon?

We have the Reformed tradition that ‘saved’ persons are still snow covered dunghills.

Actually Paul is the one who said all true believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit and that for the “day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). This is an eternal security verse.

Well, we read it differently.

I agree that the sealing of the HS that happens in baptism is eternal.

It’s speaking of a security and a permanency for the believer.

No, the permanency is the seal.

Though we may grieve the Holy Spirit in whom we’re sealed, He will never leave us.

What does your tradition teach about the unforgivable sin?

We’re sealed until our redemption is complete, i.e., the glorification of our yet unredeemed, physical bodies.

I understand what you think it means. The Apostles taught that those who do not persist until the end will not be glorified.

In Eph. 1:13 Paul reveals to all true believers that, not at the time of baptism, but after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of our salvation, having BELIEVED, we were sealed in Him (Christ) with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge (or, down payment, earnest) of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession.

There is no separation in the practice of the Apostles between coming to faith in the hearing of the Word and the seal that occurs in baptism. Such a dichotomy is actually a rather recent innovation.

The “redemption” is referring to the revealing of the redemption of WHOLE man: body, soul and spirit. Presently the believer’s spirit and soul are redeemed, the body is yet future (see Phil. 3:20-21).

Why do you suppose that God considers the consecration of our bodies to Him part of our spiritual worship?

Why do you suppose that God has preserved some of the bodies of the saints?

 

[guanophore]

This means they were devout in Judaism. They practiced it according to the commandments of the Law. Paul said of himself: “…as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless” (Phil. 3:6). But when it comes to the righteousness in respect to salvation and justification he sayshil 3:9 “…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,”

I believe these righteous Jews were so because if grace, through faith. They were able to be blameless because of their faith.

Paul, more than anyone, understood that the Law could not impart (Divine) righteousness. Through law comes the knowledge of SIN (Rom. 3:20). Even the Decalogue is called a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7-9).Rom 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (i.e., commandments).

I am not arguing the position that one can be justified by works of the Law. I am saying that grace, through faith, enables one to fulfill the Law.

No, my friend, it’s those who have been reckoned righteous through faith in Christ (justified), redeemed by His blood, forgiven of ALL sins, forever reconciled to God, sanctified as “saints,” now in Christ, that have been indwelt and sealed securely by the H.S. of promise “until the day of redemption” of their yet unredeemed bodies (Phil. 3:20-21).See Rom. 4:25 - 5:1-2.

I don’t see that we have a disagreement here at all. I think, though you think that righteousness is imputed, and I think it is infused, we both agree that humans are saved by grace, through faith. We agree that it is the blood of Christ that allows humans to be forgiven of sins, and that His Spirit in us (whether infused or imputed) sanctiies us, seals us, indwells us and finishes the work that was begun at the moment we were justified.

 

[guanophore]

States nothing about baptism sanctifying or justifying anyone. Looks those words up in a concordance and the related verses.

Oh, I have! I invested a whole Master’s thesis in it. What a treat!

I learned that the Apostles never separated a profession of saving faith from baptism. I learned that, when the Apostles’ taught that the believer was “washed” from sins, they were referring to baptism. Baptism is the manner in which the cleansing blood of Christ is applied to the believer.

Heb 10:21-24
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful;

I also learned that the seal occurs in baptism, and that the profession of faith made at the time of baptism (calling upon His name) was never administered to a person that was not willing to make a commitment unto death.

Acts 22:16
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

The apostles believed and taught that the cleansing waters of baptism infused the HS, sealing the believer until the day of redemption.

1 Cor 6:10-11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

This “washing” did not occur apart from water. It was “born again of water and spirit” that Jesus taught.

1 Peter 3:20-22
in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

I learned that baptism is not done as a removal of dirt from the body, but is a cleansing of the conscience. The only Power that can clean the conscience is the HS. It is through the resurrection of Jesus that this is possible.

And if I may give credit to my separated brethren, I learned all these truths about Baptism in an evangelical protestant seminary.

It was the year I spent studying historical theology that precipitated my return to the Catholic Church. I was never so Catholic as I was after three years in that seminary.

To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t see what this has to do with “Someone Can Lose Their Salvation” (the title of the thread)?

Maybe we can get back ontrack.

Moon is in agreement with the Apostolic Teaching that believers are sealed permanently when we begin our life with Christ. The Apostles taught that this seal occurred in baptism. Moon believes it happens at the moment of faith. Either way, we are in agreement that the seal of the promise is permanent

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; 22 he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Cor 5:5
5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Eph 1:12-14
13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Moon believes that a person thus sealed can never lose salvation.

The Apostles taught that it was possible to walk away from one’s inheritance.

Moon believes that those who are adopted as sons and daughters cannot fail to be perfected.

The Apostles taught that it is possible for one to be made a partaker of divine grace, then spurn the blood that bought them.

So you see, we are not off topic.