Someone can lose their salvation?

[tqualey]

Hi, Ecoclimber,

Welcome to the list! Glad you stopped by this site to chat for a while. You raised several valid questions … let me try my hand at just one of them:

…I’ve been talking to chair of the theology dept at the Jesuit University where I graduated from. However, because of health issues and fact that the Jesuit President of this university and his order is being sued for allowing Jesuit priests who had known sexual problems to be placed in remote Eskimo villages where all outside communication was limited. seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2008625875_suit14m0.html this is becoming a real roadblock for me to continue on to find a solution to the salvation dilemma . seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2008625875_suit14m0.html

The problem with scandal is that it does much violence to the trust that we are to have in God’s appointed representatives of the Church. Yes, the individual priests who broke their vow and the Commandments in both thought and deed were a bad enough lot - but, the Bishops who were less then forthright in removing these violent wolves from the sheepfold bear significant responsibility here, too. No easy answers here. They did wrong and there is Divine Justice awaiting all of us.

What do we do now? The honest answer is that as we enter the Lenten Season tomorrow to add this inteniton into our prayers, fasting and sacrifices. Asking God in His Goodness and Mercy to help the victims to be made whole and to for those guilty that they receive the Grace of Contrition and ask God for forgiveness from this tremendous evil.

The CC is made up of sinful people - and, nothing is going to change that. While there have been scandals in the past, they have been more ‘historic’ events - this one has happened on our ‘watch’. Now we have a fair idea how Catholics may have felt with Popes and anti-Popes, un-chaste clergy, theft of Church money for lavish life-styles and simony at almost all levels. There have been some really bad eggs wearing the Cloth. But, our challenge is to look to Christ as our Savior, look to the holy Spirit as the Guide for the Church in doctrinal matters of Faith and Morals and God the Father as moving us all forward under His protection.

Nothing anyone can say will remove this horrible scandal - I am confident that centuries from now it will be still be studied to learn how to avoid such evil in the future. We all can learn from it and be the wiser for this experience. None of us are so removed from human nature that we are no longer capable of abandoning God and lusting after things. Only God’s Grace - and our efforts to work with His Love - can keep us from creating scandals of our own.

Again, welcome to the list. The first time I went to public school … was for graduate school! I was taught by the Christian Brothers.

God bless

 

[Howie01]

ncgolf:

Actually … you have not … and anyone reading your posts will recognize that fact.

Please, ncgolf. Show me anywhere in scripture where condemnation comes about for not being baptized.

ncgolf:

You picked the verse … the verse says “believe” and “be baptized”. So you must reconcile why the verse has those words … I will rewrite the verse as you have interpreted it and leave the original.

Mark 16:16
“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Where in that verse is the condemnation for not being baptized?

ncgolf:

Mark 16:16 revised

“He who has believed shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Tell me … do you honestly believe they say the same things? Remember you picked this verse to demonstrate your belief … so which version of Scripture do you hold to.

There’s no need for you to revise, or to twist the verse. Just show me where, in that verse, one is condemned for not being baptized?

Was Abraham saved by baptism, or by faith?

How about Isaac?

How about Jacob?

How about Jacob’s family?

How about King David?

How about King David’s family?

Where those people saved by baptism, or were they saved by grace through faith?

(cf CCC para 1257-1261)

 

[ncgolf]

Please, ncgolf. Show me anywhere in scripture where condemnation comes about for not being baptized.

Where in that verse is the condemnation for not being baptized?

What I will tell you is this states requirements for being saved … believe and be baptized.

Believing means following the commands ordained by Christ … and following the practices of the Apostles … it is not up to you decide which parts apply to oneself. Christ himself told his apostles to make disciples and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your issue is not with me but with Christ’s own words.

You look at only half of the requirements for “saved”. Why do you do this?

I imagine this is getting off topic … so you may or may not respond as the thread count is getting towards the end. There is another thread on the Necessity of Baptism … that may address these issues more pointedly thought it looks like it is a bit old now

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312560

Was Abraham saved by baptism, or by faith?by baptism, or by faith?

Like all Abraham was saved by grace through faith … though this does not discount that like all faithful Jews they completed the proper initiation rites commanded by God. You could not claim to be Jewish by just believing it … why do you think differently?

 

[ncgolf]

Please, ncgolf. Show me anywhere in scripture where condemnation comes about for not being baptized.

Where in that verse is the condemnation for not being baptized?

What I will tell you is this states requirements for being saved … believe and be baptized.

Believing means following the commands ordained by Christ … and following the practices of the Apostles … it is not up to you decide which parts apply to oneself. Christ himself told his apostles to make disciples and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your issue is not with me but with Christ’s own words.

You look at only half of the requirements for “saved”. Why do you do this?

I imagine this is getting off topic … so you may or may not respond as the thread count is getting towards the end. There is another thread on the Necessity of Baptism … that may address these issues more pointedly thought it looks like it is a bit old now

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312560

Was Abraham saved by baptism, or by faith?by baptism, or by faith?

Like all Abraham was saved by grace through faith … though this does not discount that like all faithful Jews they completed the proper initiation rites commanded by God. You could not claim to be Jewish by just believing it … why do you think differently?

 

[ncgolf]

Please, ncgolf. Show me anywhere in scripture where condemnation comes about for not being baptized.

Where in that verse is the condemnation for not being baptized?

What I will tell you is this states requirements for being saved … believe and be baptized.

Believing means following the commands ordained by Christ … and following the practices of the Apostles … it is not up to you decide which parts apply to oneself. Christ himself told his apostles to make disciples and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your issue is not with me but with Christ’s own words.

You look at only half of the requirements for “saved”. Why do you do this?

I imagine this is getting off topic … so you may or may not respond as the thread count is getting towards the end. There is another thread on the Necessity of Baptism … that may address these issues more pointedly thought it looks like it is a bit old now

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312560

Was Abraham saved by baptism, or by faith?by baptism, or by faith?

Like all Abraham was saved by grace through faith … though this does not discount that like all faithful Jews they completed the proper initiation rites commanded by God. You could not claim to be Jewish by just believing it … why do you think differently?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Howie01,

You really need to define your terms about the CCC not being an inspired document.

To begin, the CCC is not an inspired document.

The CCC is the official pronouncement of offical teachings of the Catholic Church. This is not some scribble of ideas on a post-it-note. Christ said that the Holy Spirit would Guide and Protect the Church from error. So, are you saying that there is error in this document and that the Holy Spirit has failed in His Duties? Recall, it was this same Catholic Church that gave you the Bible that you are claiming to be free of error.

Furthermore, look at the statements from the CCC in your post above: ”God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, but He, Himself, is not bound by His sacraments.” IMO, that’s double-talk.

Well… let’s see if we can turn that around so that it no longer sounds like the ‘…double-talk…’ you are complaining about. What if the statement read: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism and He Himself is also bound by this ruling.” Hmmmm does that make sense? I do not think so… but, let’s see how this works in a ‘real life’ example.

Remember when Christ was dying on the Cross between two condemned men? All throughout Christ’s Public Ministry, He is never quoted as promising anyone Heaven. With only hours to go… the “Good Thief” asks Christ to remember him - and, sure enogh, Christ remembers him in a very big way! No one baptized the ‘Good Thief’ yet, he is only one that Christ said would be in Heaven. Sounds like God made an exception here.

US criminal judges have what are known as sentencing guidelines for various crimes that a person is convicted of. But, these are guidelines - and judges have been known to make exceptions. Is that ‘double-talk’?

If, as the CCC states, God can use means other than baptism to save, then baptism is clearly not necessary for salvation.

Well, as in the example of the “Good Thief”, baptism was not absolutely necessary for salvation. But, notice, it was Christ Himself who cut this guy the exception. Everyone else is expected to follow the rule.

Demanding an exception is quite different from what the “Good Thief” did. Actually, this approach of yours seems to presume on the Mercy of God - and we are warned not to put God to the test. So, as I understand the situation, you have clear scriptural directives to be baptized - and you claim to believe but claim Baptism is not necessary - in direct contradiction to the words of Christ. I really believe you need to give this position of yours a little more thought.

Was Abraham saved by baptism, or by faith?
What about Isaac, Jacob, Jacob’s sons, King David?

As you will recall, baptism was not what God required of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David or any of the Jews. The required rite for entry into God’s Chosen People was circumcision. Now, I don’t know about you, buddy, but, I for one am very happy about this change! The required rite for Christians - those who claim to follow Christ’s commands - is Baptism. As I see it, you either believe what Christ said (and this belief is demonstrated by behaviors, talk-the-talk & walk-the-walk) or you don’t. There really isn’t any ‘middle ground’ here. Of course, you must understand that Baptism is your entry into being a Child of God - you are expected to do (ah, sounds like WORK!) things, too if you are expecting to make it into the Heavenly Reward.

Like was pointed out in the previous excellent responses, you really have not made the demonstration on how one can claim belief but refuse to follow Christ’s commands. Actually, I am a bit confused by your scripture selection to demonstrate the non-necesity of what Christ claims is necessary.

Take your time before responding - this is no easy task… actually, I would say it is really quite impossible.

God bless

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’ve been wundering around in the Protestant land for some time. I love the praise and worship and the extemporary reading of the word and its application in your life. I seen people healed and delivered and on fire for God.

Except that you cannot base religion on emotions. (but if you want some beauty to back up your faith:

youtube.com/watch?v=h0nSjxDKJEo&mode=related&search=
and
youtube.com/watch?v=4LtCrlXdd2E

However, I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools all the way past the university level. The Jesuits did me in with their liberation theology and I left. I have been on the road to coming back but keep running into some roadblocks concerning salvation and purgatory.

I understand where you are coming from here, I too graduated from a Jesuit university, but I would never let mere men stand between me and Holy Mother Church. Also, Jesuits have a great spirituality and intellectualism, we shouldn’t just focus on one aspect.

My question is before Christ died for our sins on the cross no one could keep his commandments, Then how can someone who is saved expect to keep a higher degree of obedience when he couldn’t keep the lower commandments if you get my drift. He says put the carnal desires away through the power of the Holy Spirit but there are no instructions on how to do this?

Grace received in Reconciliation, Eucharist, prayer. The Eucharist is the most powerful weapon against the Devil. St. Francis de Sales says the Devil sees us as lions dripping blood from our mouths when we receive.

I also have a concern as to how many good works as a condition of love is needed to obtain salvation. 200? 2000?

Your whole life should be a good work, it’s not about numbers.

I do not see many Catholics taking in the poor within their homes, Clothing the naked, prison ministry, going without food so other brothers in Christ may eat. Give money to someone that as for it without requiring repayment. I don’t see the hating of the things of this life or worldly pursuits over spiritual pursuits.I don’t see the love that is required for salvation. If you read how Christians acted in the first century you will get a drift on the meaning of love within the body of Christ.

Catholic Charities is the larget charity in the world. There is certainly prison ministry. What about the Sisters of Charity which Mother Teresa started. In every parish there is a St. Vincent de Paul Society which tends to the needs of the poor in the parish boundaries by buying groceries, paying rent, heat, electricity. We have a parish health ministry which tends to the needs of the sick, elderly, and shut-ins. We bring them the Eucharist at least once a week, sit with them, listen to them.

By the end of the 2nd century the pagans were mocking the Christians for talking the talk but not walking the walk. And by the 3rd century the Christians were butchering each other over the Arian controversy.

Not ALL. There were many martyrs who died for the faith.

I’ve been talking to chair of the theology dept at the Jesuit University where I graduated from. However, because of health issues and fact that the Jesuit President of this university and his order is being sued for allowing Jesuit priests who had known sexual problems to be placed in remote Eskimo villages where all outside communication was limited. this is becoming a real roadblock for me to continue on to find a solution to the salvation dilemma .

These are distractions to the true faith. There are sinners every where, I am a sinner. I have personally known priests, who after 60 years have been accused of molesting. Even though there is no criminal complaint, SNAP helps people presume guilt. In the end, most I know have to settle out of court, because insurance won’t pay for court battle. So the poor guys don’t even have a chance to prove their innocence. It destroys them.

In our Archdiocese, we have Project Genereset which offers healing and counseling. Even Pope John II forgave his would be assassin.

I’m not denying the truth of your allegations, but they are distractions and have nothing to do with the validity of the Truth taught by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Faith.

Keep up the faith, keep coming here. You will learn much.

 

[SHW]

Ephesians 1:13-14In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.As I recall, Paul mentions baptism only once in the entire epistle to the Ephesians, and that mention has nothing to do with the sealing of the believer, but the sealing occurs with the believer’s believing.

Hi Howie01,

Paul, himself, is converted and is then baptized in Acts 9:1-18.

Acts 16:31-34 “So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.”

Acts 22:15-16 “For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16** And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord**.’”

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 8:12 “But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.”

Luke is showing the necessity of Baptism with water and the word commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19 in order to wash away (remit) your sins.

Acts 19:4-6 “Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”

Paul baptized them and then laid hands on them and confirmed them in the faith. These are two Sacraments in the Catholic Church: Baptism and Confirmation.

Acts 8:15-17 “who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.”

These persons had already been baptized with water for the remission of sins but Paul still needed to confirm them in the faith by laying his hands on them and when he did, they received the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism but we receive a greater measure of His gifts of grace when we are confirmed.

Can a person receive the Holy Spirit without water and the word (Baptism)?

Yes.

Acts 10:44-48 “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.”

These Gentiles received the Holy Spirit before water Baptism in order to show Peter that he was to baptize Gentiles, too, because they were chosen by God to be saved along with the Jews. The Jewish Christians believed that they were the only people who would be saved so they were astonished to see the Holy Spirit poured out on the Gentiles. Peter then commanded them to be baptized because Baptism is the way that Jesus commanded in order to remit Adam’s sin from our souls. God does make exceptions as you can see, and this is why those who are not baptized (those who died prior to Jesus’ atoning Sacrifice and also those who do not know about Baptism’s necessity) can still be saved by Baptism of Desire (persons who desire God’s will for them and who would do as He commanded if they knew what He commanded) and Baptism of Blood (martyrdom). The ordinary way commanded by Jesus is water Baptism, however.

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.”

We are “born again” through Baptism (water and the spirit).

Pax,
SHW

 

[qui_est_ce]

However, I believe that baptism is not an absolute necessity for salvation:

Mark 16:16
For those who know the teachings of Christ it is absolutely necessary. Jesus told us to do it, who am I to question Jesus? As for those who do not know, Howie is correct. We do not know. Jesus told the good thief he would go to Heaven. The good thief demonstrated a baptism of desire. Had he been spared, Jesus would have told him to repent and be baptized. Do you think the thief would have said, “I don’t need to be baptized, you already assured me a place in Heaven.”?
​

​

 

[SHW]

Hi, SHW,
Practice obviously makes perfect - and eluding detection is really only slightly different from eluding answering the clear and concise questions put to him on this list. God bless,

Hi Tom,

I have finally decided to just ask questions to find out exactly what persons believe so that we can start a dialog discussing these beliefs and use Scripture to back up our beliefs.

So, if moondweller states that all persons who claim to be Christians will be saved even if they do not obey God’s commandments, then we have a starting point for plumbing Scripture to see if It agrees with his/her opinion/interpretation.

If moondweller answers that the only Christians who will be saved are those who obey God’s commandments, then we have this as our starting point.

If I do not get any answer at all, then moondweller is not seriously searching for Truth but is instead just trying to convert me using his/her own opinion instead of Scripture in its correct context (Scripture’s full truth about salvation and not just an isolated verse or two), and so I will not be spending any more time addressing his/her posts.

Pax,
SHW

 

[guanophore]

I love the praise and worship and the extemporary reading of the word and its application in your life. I seen people healed and delivered and on fire for God.

Spontaneous prayer and praise is one aspect of our faith that it seems the Catholic Church has drifted away from over the centuries. Fortunately I was able to get this need met through the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

The Jesuits did me in with their liberation theology and I left. I have been on the road to coming back but keep running into some roadblocks concerning salvation and purgatory.

You mentioned these, but then you went on to other issues. Do you want to use one of the threads on purgatory already running to address your issues?

I know now that the Greek word for believing is present tense active meaning a continual action of believing and not a one-time situation. However, I am troubled by the fact that when Jesus preached the Good News that no man can save himself, all have fallen short of the Glory of God, not one righteous and that He paid the price for our sins.

Sorry. what is troubling?

He invokes a higher requirement then the Law of Moses.  It’s not committing an act of adultery that is sin; it’s the mere thought or desire.  It's not the act of murder but the thought of being angry with someone that can lead to murder… the root cause.

My question is before Christ died for our sins on the cross no one could keep his commandments,

This is not the case. Many faithful Jews kept the commandments. They did so the same way we do now, by grace, through faith. When they fell short, they obediently offered the sacrifice required. It was not that they were perfect, but they were obedient - the obedience of faith. Taking responsibility when falling short, and following what God had prescribed for reconciliation.

Then how can someone who is saved expect to keep a higher degree of obedience when he couldn’t keep the lower commandments if you get my drift.

It is only by HIs spirit within us - it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us.

He says put the carnal desires away through the power of the Holy Spirit but there are no instructions on how to do this?

Sure there are! Scripture is full of them. If you want, we can start a thread! Also, the Church, to whom Jesus committed pastoral care, gives us guidance. Today is “fat Tuesday”, the day before Ash Wed. The Church has a great deal of guidance on how to use the Lenten season as an occasion of crucifying the flesh and developing more devotion to God.

I also have a concern as to how many good works as a condition of love is needed to obtain salvation. 200? 2000?

There is only One good work that can obtain salvation for us. That is Jesus’ giving His body and blood for the life of the world. When we accept His sacrifice for our sins, our lives become hidden with Christ in God. We are to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice to Him, all the days of our lives. That means, every moment of every day is a chance to glorify Him in our actions. We are to complete the works that God has prepared before hand, that we should walk in them. It is not a quantity, but an attitude of the heart.

I do not see many Catholics taking in the poor within their homes, Clothing the naked, prison ministry, going without food so other brothers in Christ may eat. Give money to someone that as for it without requiring repayment. I don’t see the hating of the things of this life or worldly pursuits over spiritual pursuits.I don’t see the love that is required for salvation.

I would recommend that, if you are going to examine the lives of others as a model, that you confine yourself to the Saints. What our neighbor is doing or not doing before God is not something you will be called to give an account for on your day of judgement. Only your OWN feeding of the poor, giving to those in need, and treating everyone you see as if they were Christ. Make sure the love required of you is manifested in your own life. Most of us have our hands full when we do this, and will not be looking to take the speck out of our brother’s eye.

If you read how Christians acted in the first century you will get a drift on the meaning of love within the body of Christ.

I agree, but there have been lives to emulate throughout history. This is why we have the saints as models.

By the end of the 2nd century the pagans were mocking the Christians for talking the talk but not walking the walk. And by the 3rd century the Christians were butchering each other over the Arian controversy.

I’ve been talking to chair of the theology dept at the Jesuit University where I graduated from. However, because of health issues and fact that the Jesuit President of this university and his order is being sued for allowing Jesuit priests who had known sexual problems to be placed in remote Eskimo villages where all outside communication was limited. seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2008625875_suit14m0.html this is becoming a real roadblock for me to continue on to find a solution to the salvation dilemma .

seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2008625875_suit14m0.html

Do not let the sins of others dissuade you - only attend to the log that is in your own eye, and pray for those who are sinners.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, SHW,

Thanks for touching base… The post you copied from me has been out for a few days… and Moondweller chose not to respond. But, on that item… I really have to ‘take a number’… Moond has ignored a number of other posters for some time. Actually, he has managed to generate his own back-log.

If I do not get any answer at all, then moondweller is not seriously searching for Truth but is instead just trying to convert me using his/her own opinion instead of Scripture in its correct context (Scripture’s full truth about salvation and not just an isolated verse or two), and so I will not be spending any more time addressing his/her posts.

Actually, it is a sadness for me that some are more interested in playing games then of actually discussing issues of Faith in an effort to reach a common understanding. This requires a certain sincerity about developing a closer relationship with God… and the good news is that most on the list have it and share their insights and knowledge freely with others.

The invitation stands open for Moond to rejoin - but, really, I really do not think many folks on the list have the time for games.

God bless

 

[PapaSquash]

Please, ncgolf. Show me anywhere in scripture where condemnation comes about for not being baptized.

Where in that verse is the condemnation for not being baptized?

There’s no need for you to revise, or to twist the verse. Just show me where, in that verse, one is condemned for not being baptized?

I don’t know that Scripture anywhere says what one has to do to be condemned. After all, one doesn’t have to do anything to be condemned - it is the default state of the human soul. The goal is to “embrace the grace” of God and get the switch set to “saved” and keep it there.

Was Abraham saved by baptism, or by faith?

How about Isaac?

How about Jacob?

How about Jacob’s family?

How about King David?

How about King David’s family?

Where those people saved by baptism, or were they saved by grace through faith?

(cf CCC para 1257-1261)

They were saved by God according to his terms. He laid out the terms and they accepted them. They were under a different covenant. I am under the covenant outlined in the Gospels - I’m not about to try and renegotiate the terms or hold out to see if I get a better offer.

 

[guanophore]

To begin, the CCC is not an inspired document.

No, but it explains the infallible teachings.

Furthermore, look at the statements from the CCC in your post above: ”God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, but He, Himself, is not bound by His sacraments.” IMO, that’s double-talk.

Notice as well from the link you provided: ”Although God has bound salvation to Baptism, he himself is not bound by his sacraments (he can save by other means).

If, as the CCC states, God can use means other than baptism to save, then baptism is clearly not necessary for salvation.

It is not double talk, it is looking at the same thing from two perspectives. God has ordained that we be baptized, and He has tied this to salvation. From His point of view, though, it is not necessary. It is necessary for us, not for Him.

God is able to use any means He so desires to save. We are not. We are to follow His commandments. He has commanded baptism.

Was Abraham saved by baptism, or by faith?

There are a few problems with this question. One is that Baptism is a NT commandment, so it does not apply to Abraham. Another is that baptism is not separated from faith, so it is not “baptism or faith” but faith working in baptism. The third is that we are not saved by faith, but by God’s grace.

What about Isaac, Jacob, Jacob’s sons, King David?

these were all under the covenant of circumcision. Baptism replaces circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom.

God is immutable in His character, and a study of that shows that His immutability is of particular importance to Him with respect to those He saves:John 3:16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that the one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.(Jn 3:18, 36).

Faith is never separated from baptism.

 

[Howie01]

tqualey:

You really need to define your terms about the CCC not being an inspired document.

I think “not inspired” speaks for itself.

tqualey:

The CCC is the official pronouncement of offical teachings of the Catholic Church. This is not some scribble of ideas on a post-it-note.

I know what the CCC is.

tqualey:

Christ said that the Holy Spirit would Guide and Protect the Church from error.

He did not make that promise to the church, but warned all believers that false teachers would creep and corrupt His gospel.

tqualey:

So, are you saying that there is error in this document and that the Holy Spirit has failed in His Duties?

I said very clearly that the CCC is “not an inspired document.” (Why must Catholics re-word everything that non-Catholics say?)

tqualey:

Recall, it was this same Catholic Church that gave you the Bible that you are claiming to be free of error.

That’s irrelevant to the concept of inspiration. The Church knew what the scriptures were because the Church kept records of who wrote what; therefore, the decision of the canon is one of recognition, rather than inspiration.

tqualey:

Well… let’s see if we can turn that around so that it no longer sounds like the ‘…double-talk…’ you are complaining about. What if the statement read: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism and He Himself is also bound by this ruling.” Hmmmm does that make sense? I do not think so…

It has no bearing on the question, but IMO, it would make sense and more continuity in Catholic soteriology. Instead, the CCC waffles on the subject by saying baptism is “necessary” for salvation (para 1257), and then in paras. 1259 and 1260 says that it isn’t.

Necessary has a specific meaning. If there’s even one exception, then it’s not necessary. Perhaps they should have chosen their words more carefully.

tqualey:

Remember when Christ was dying on the Cross between two condemned men? All throughout Christ’s Public Ministry, He is never quoted as promising anyone Heaven.

C’mon now! Christ promised salvation to all who believed in Him. That’s the “good news.”

tqualey:

With only hours to go… the “Good Thief” asks Christ to remember him - and, sure enogh, Christ remembers him in a very big way! No one baptized the ‘Good Thief’…

That’s pure conjecture on your part. Whether or not the thief was baptized, we are not told.

…yet, he is the only one that Christ said would be in Heaven.

Again, Christ promised heaven to all who believed in Him.

tqualey:

Sounds like God made an exception here.

More conjecture. You are imposing your presuppositions onto the text—eisegesis.

tqualey:

Well, as in the example of the “Good Thief”, baptism was not absolutely necessary for salvation. But, notice, it was Christ Himself who cut this guy the exception. Everyone else is expected to follow the rule.

You’re very inconsistent with the teachings of your own church (cf CCC para 1259, 1260). ISTM you’re making this up as you go along.

tqualey:

Demanding an exception is quite different from what the “Good Thief” did. Actually, this approach of yours seems to presume on the Mercy of God - and we are warned not to put God to the test. So, as I understand the situation, you have clear scriptural directives to be baptized - and you claim to believe but claim Baptism is not necessary - in direct contradiction to the words of Christ. I really believe you need to give this position of yours a little more thought.

Sorry my friend, but you’re all over the place.

Did Christ contradict Himself when He saved the thief on the cross, who, according to you, was not baptized???

tqualey:

As you will recall, baptism was not what God required of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David or any of the Jews. The required rite for entry into God’s Chosen People was circumcision.

What about the women???

Seems to me, you’re not giving this any careful thought.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then all of the OT saints perished without it. As with circumcision, so too with baptism, neither saves, but grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone (cf Eph 13ff; 2:8ff).

tqualey:

Like was pointed out in the previous excellent responses, you really have not made the demonstration on how one can claim belief but refuse to follow Christ’s commands.

My friend, your Church in its catechism has explained that for you (cf CCC para 1259).

tqualey:

Take your time before responding - this is no easy task… actually, I would say it is really quite impossible.

 

[guanophore]

He did not make that promise to the church, but warned all believers that false teachers would creep and corrupt His gospel.

In fact, He did make this promise to His church. It is necessary, since falsity can creep. The Church is protected from error by His divine Power.

The Church knew what the scriptures were because the Church kept records of who wrote what; therefore, the decision of the canon is one of recognition, rather than inspiration.

No one can recognize the things that belong to God without His inspriation. Therefore, both things are true.

Instead, the CCC waffles on the subject by saying baptism is “necessary” for salvation (para 1257), and then in paras. 1259 and 1260 says that it isn’t.

It is not waffling. It is recognizing that God has given us certain commandments to follow, but that He does not have to follow them.

Necessary has a specific meaning. If there’s even one exception, then it’s not necessary. Perhaps they should have chosen their words more carefully.

I think you are right, about necessary having a specific meaning. However, an exception does not change that. All who make a profession of faith in Christ need to be baptized. God can save anyone He wants, whether they make a profession of faith, or not!

C’mon now! Christ promised salvation to all who believed in Him. That’s the “good news.”

Yes. The belief that saves is belief that acts. This kind of faith is obedient, acting faith.

That’s pure conjecture on your part. Whether or not the thief was baptized, we are not told.

You are right. But it would be wrong to assume, since we are not told, that he was not. Although Jesus can save whoever He wants, whenever He likes, this man may have been bapitzed during the years that Jesus was preaching. He may have backslid, and gone back to thieving.

Again, Christ promised heaven to all who believed in Him.

Indeed! He also commanded all who believed in Him to be baptized.

Did Christ contradict Himself when He saved the thief on the cross, who, according to you, was not baptized???

No. He is not bound by the sacraments. We are.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then all of the OT saints perished without it.

Except that they were under a different covenant.

As with circumcision, so too with baptism, neither saves, but grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone (cf Eph 13ff; 2:8ff).

This is true. Baptism replaces circumcision as the entrance rite into the New Covenant.

I am glad we are in agreement that grace saves. However, faith is never alone. Itis always accompanied by love and hope.

 

[broski234]

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then all of the OT saints perished without it. As with circumcision, so too with baptism, neither saves, but grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone (cf Eph 13ff; 2:8ff).

With all due respect Howie, but this makes no sense whatsoever. “As with circumcision, so too with baptism, neither saves, but grace alone, through faith alone”. No sense. Correct me if I am wrong in what you are trying to say, but you are saying we are saved by God’s grace alone, through our faith alone? That’s ridiculous! If it’s faith alone, its not grace alone. Do you see the logical inconsistency here? Scripture is very clear that baptism does indeed save us and that if we are not born of water and the spirit, we will not have eternal life. Circumcision was the sign of the old covenant. To be in covenant with God, you had to be circumcised. So indeed circumcision saved people in the old covenant. IT WAS PART OF THE SALVATION PROCESS!!!

God Bless!

 

[inspector8]

Judas Iscariot lost his salvation.

You do not know the state of someone’s mind at their death!
Judas, Hitler etc. may be in Heaven. God in his mercy can and will forgive all even on your last breath.

 

[paul_c]

I’ve been wundering around in the Protestant land for some time. I love the praise and worship and the extemporary reading of the word and its application in your life. I seen people healed and delivered and on fire for God.

However, I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools all the way past the university level. The Jesuits did me in with their liberation theology and I left. I have been on the road to coming back but keep running into some roadblocks concerning salvation and purgatory.

I’m glad you are on the road back, Let’s see if we can work through those roadblocks.

I know now that the Greek word for believing is present tense active meaning a continual action of believing and not a one-time situation. . He invokes a higher requirement then the Law of Moses. It’s not committing an act of adultery that is sin; it’s the mere thought or desire. It’s not the act of murder but the thought of being angry with someone that can lead to murder… the root cause.

My question is before Christ died for our sins on the cross no one could keep his commandments, Then how can someone who is saved expect to keep a higher degree of obedience when he couldn’t keep the lower commandments if you get my drift. He says put the carnal desires away through the power of the Holy Spirit but there are no instructions on how to do this?

Let’s drop back to the basics first. When you are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, you are cleansed of all previous sins and given sufficient sanctifying grace to be saved. From that point forward, you are working on your personal sanctification to stay in the state of grace. You do this by doing God’s will. If you fail in this and create a mortal sin (intentially turning from God by doing something you know to be a serious sin), then you can still be saved through the sacrament of reconciliation if you provide an honest, contrite confession, you repent and you do penance to make up for the wrong. Through this continual process of reconciliation, you become more and more able to lead a holy life. If you, like most today, do not reach a sufficient level of holiness but de in the state of Grace, you will be given a final purification in Purgatory. So in direct answer to your question about how to eliminate your carnal desires, it is done through this reconciliation process. As you confess, your confessor will help you find solutions to your issues. That, couple with prayer and a sincere desire to repent, will be effective for you.

I also have a concern as to how many good works as a condition of love is needed to obtain salvation. 200? 2000?

So as you can see from above, going to heaven isn’t about the number of good works that are done, its about staying in the state of grace by demonstrating your faith through actions.

I do not see many Catholics taking in the poor within their homes, Clothing the naked, prison ministry, going without food so other brothers in Christ may eat. Give money to someone that as for it without requiring repayment. I don’t see the hating of the things of this life or worldly pursuits over spiritual pursuits.I don’t see the love that is required for salvation. If you read how Christians acted in the first century you will get a drift on the meaning of love within the body of Christ.
By the end of the 2nd century the pagans were mocking the Christians for talking the talk but not walking the walk. And by the 3rd century the Christians were butchering each other over the Arian controversy.

There are over 1Billion Catholics in the world and they cover the full range from saints to sinners. There are probably Catholics in your own neighborhood who do the things you require, they just don’t do them for public display. Remember, there are millions of Catholic priest and religious that have given up everything for God and live the life of the first century Christians, in communities where they share everything. And yes, some of them didn’t do it successfully. That condemns them, not the rest of the Church. And yes, unfortunately, there are many Catholics in name only But there are also many devout Catholics who attend to the poor, go to mass Daily, teach the faith , wokr with the sick etc

I’ve been talking to chair of the theology dept at the Jesuit University where I graduated from. However, because of health issues and fact that the Jesuit President of this university and his order is being sued for allowing Jesuit priests who had known sexual problems to be placed in remote Eskimo villages where all outside communication was limited. seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2008625875_suit14m0.html this is becoming a real roadblock for me to continue on to find a solution to the salvation dilemma

Don’t be discouraged by individual Catholics who sin and cause scandal They are a small percentage of Catholics Rather focus on the Catholic ideals because that is what you want for yourself.
The Catholic Church offers two advantages over any other Christian Church. First, it offers the fullness of truth that was past down by the Apostles. All other Christians, unfortunately, only have the Bible to reference and are forced to do their own personal interpretation, which is often flawed. Second, it offers the sacraments, most particularly Baptism and Reconciliation, by which our sins are wiped clean, allowing us fresh starts on our sanctification. For sinful man, these are indespencible for salvation…

Good luck on your quest. CAF is a good place to get the answers you need.

 

[paul_c]

Ephesians 1:13-14In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.As I recall, Paul mentions baptism only once in the entire epistle to the Ephesians, and that mention has nothing to do with the sealing of the believer, but the sealing occurs with the believer’s believing.

Howie, arguing against Baptism is a fool’s errand. All four gospels start out with a desciption of John the Baptist baptizing in the Jordan as a sign of repentance. Jesus’s mission on earth begins with his own Baptism. In John 3, Jesus says to Nicodemus: , “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. Later in John 3 , we are told that Jesus and his disciples are baptizing and everyone is going to them, rather than to John.
Note, further the end of Matthew’s Gospel,
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
Mark 16 : 15-16 has a similar verse: He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned

It is clear that the church never stopped baptizing for the forgiveness of sins. This is what Peter says to the very first converts at Pentacost (Acts2: 38)
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit

Paul is baptized to start his ministry and there are many, many more references to baptism in ACTs and the Epistles. To deny its important to salvation is to not understand the Bible. Baptism is the official ceremony that provides a path to salvation. And note, the only situations where a non-baptized person might be given a path to salvation is when they desired to be baptized but the situation wouldn’t allow it…