Someone can lose their salvation?

[moondweller]

guanophore:

I believe these righteous Jews were so because if grace, through faith. They were able to be blameless because of their faith.

Believe what you want, guanophore, but according the Scripture the righteousness required by God did not, nor cannot, come through the Law. The Scriptures are clear on this:Rom 3:21-24 “But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Gal 3:21-22 "For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."You can’t see the truth of this glorious statement because you refuse to believe that God imparts righteousness (His righteousness) through faith in Christ alone. Contrary to the Word of God, you think righteousness is based on you being divinely aided to fulfill lawful commandments. But the Scripture has shut up all men “under sin,” and all that any law could do is make this painfully evident.

In fact, that was the whole purpose of the Law: That through the commandments ("thou shalt not…") sin became “utterly sinful” (Rom. 7:13) in that through the Law the sinner also became a transgressor against definite commandments. Those under the Law were not only sinners (as were Gentiles) but now, through the commandments, revealed to be transgressors as well - rendering sin utterly sinful; reflecting the utter hopelessness of all mankind. And as Jesus pointed out, transgression of the Law is not only an outward action but an inward thought as well. Remember, we’re dealing with an infinitely holy God who demands perfect righteousness.

Hence, righteousness must be based entirely on a principle other than Law: That of FAITH. That’s what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about.Gal 3:23-24 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept under the law (Gr. phroureo, “metaphorically, under the control of the Mosaic law, that he might not escape from its power, Thayer), being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor (not as a means of righteousness) {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.”

Gal 3:25-26 “But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (i.e., the Law). For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.“Totally contrary to the teachings of Catholicism, the righteousness required for salvation does not in any way come through the principle of law keeping (whether divinely aided or not), but it is gifted by God on the principle of faith (in Christ) alone:”…the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9).

I am not arguing the position that one can be justified by works of the Law. I am saying that grace, through faith, enables one to fulfill the Law.

I know, guanophore. That’s the teaching of Catholicism. But Divine Revelation clearly teaches us that the righteousness required for salvation is not based on the principle of Law - period, but the principle of grace through FAITH.

 

[moondweller]

guanophore:

Originally Posted by moondweller

No, my friend, it’s those who have been reckoned righteous through faith in Christ (justified), redeemed by His blood, forgiven of ALL sins, forever reconciled to God, sanctified as “saints,” now in Christ, that have been indwelt and sealed securely by the H.S. of promise “until the day of redemption” of their yet unredeemed bodies (Phil. 3:20-21).See Rom. 4:25 - 5:1-2.

I don’t see that we have a disagreement here at all

Really? Guanophore, as a Catholic you cannot believe that men are righteous (justified) on the principle of faith in Christ alone; and on this same faith basis forgiven of ALL sins; forever reconciled to God; permanently sanctified as “saints” being now “in Christ” (resurrected); and sealed securely by the H.S. “until the day of redemption,” i.e., the glorification of the believer’s yet unredeemed bodies. You’re in stark disagreement of all of the above.

I think, though you think that righteousness is imputed, and I think it is infused,

I know, according to the Scriptures, that divine righteousness is reckoned (credited) through faith in Christ; and our (believer’s) sins (ALL of them) were imputed to Christ on the cross, and were buried with Him. And, subsequently, His righteousness was imputed to us (believers) who are now in the resurrected Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). I know that the Scriptures never use the word “infused” in relation to the gift of Divine righteousness. What men “think” and what God has “revealed” in His written Word are often at odds.

we both agree that humans are saved by grace, through faith.

I do, you don’t. You believe that men are saved by being divinely empowered to keep the Law.

We agree that it is the blood of Christ that allows humans to be forgiven of sins,

I disagree. I believe, according to the Scriptures, that upon belief in Christ God forgives men of ALL sins, and this Divine act is based on the once for all sin-bearing sacrifice of His incarnate Son. You don’t. Sin, in fact, is still the major issue in Catholicism; and its whole sacramental system is based around this major obstacle.

and that His Spirit in us (whether infused or imputed) sanctiies us, seals us, indwells us and finishes the work that was begun at the moment we were justified.

You do not agree that, according to the Scripture, the H.S. seals the believer until the day of the redemption. But instead you say that the “seal” is permanent, but the sealing of the believer is not (which is a blatant contradiction of terms - you think you’re talking to a three year old here, guanophore?).

You do not believe at all that God Himself finishes the work He began, but that His work is forfeited through sin. Ultimately, you believe that men have the burden, themselves, to finish the work that God first began in them (void of “mortal” sin), because you do not believe that God saved the believer through the “finished” work of Jesus Christ on the cross, alone.

But read how Paul addrsses the believers at Corinth:1 Cor 1:2-9 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."And this to a church riddled with problems through spiritual immaturity.

 

[moondweller]

guanophore:

Do you believe that we can remain right with God when we grieve the HS?

It’s through justification that the believer is made “right with God.” And this righteousness was credited (reckoned) and imputed by God at the time of faith in Christ Jesus.

The Apostles taught the Trinity, the hypostatic union, and infused righteousness.

No. The doctrines of the “Trinity” and the “Hypostatic Union,” developed after the Apostolic age because of controversy. And those doctrines were based on what the Scriptures revealed. The Apostles were not familiar with either of the words “Trinity” or “Hypostatic Union.” Nor did they employ the word “infused” in connection with divine righteousness.

“Reckoned” is an accounting term. When credit is applied to an account, it is not just doctoring the books. The money is actually applied.

True. Reckoned (credited) is an accounting term. And when it is credited to one’s account, it TRULY is there. It’s his/hers!

God, as the righteous Judge of all the earth (as seen in Rom. 3:10-18), according to His integrity, had to set down the “debits” of Adam and all of humanity in him (the entire fallen human race) on the negative side of the Divine ledger. But Christ accepted our liabilities and paid (through His sacrificial blood) our debt in full at Calvary. So God, the Heavenly Accountant, transferred our debt balance to His Son, thereby clearing our “debit” column. This brought the believer to a “zero” balance. But God, by His infinite grace, went one step further and transferred, or, imputed, Divine righteousness to us from His dear Son. So the believer is not just at a zero balance having had all his sins forgiven (Col. 2:13-14), but by Divine grace he is on the PLUS side (credits) of the Divine Ledger having been reckoned righteous.

Oh, this credited, imputed, Divine righteousness is REAL, guanophore, VERY, VERY REAL. It is permanently real being “judicially” applied, and is personally real in that the true believer is now, positionally, in the resurrected Christ, no longer in Adam. It’s revealed in Scripture that with Christ he has died to sin," once for all, and with Him raised to new life “in Him,” having been imputed His righteousness (Eph. 2:5-7; Col. 3:1-4). All this is revealed and documented in Scripture for all generations to know.

Your problem is you that you don’t believe the testimony of God concerning His Son, salvation and the free gift of righteousness through faith in Him alone. For this reason you’re still striving to be justified through law keeping, but God has told you in His Word that righteousness is not at all based on the principle of law, but the principle of FAITH, alone - to the glory of His Son.

We have the Reformed tradition that ‘saved’ persons are still snow covered dunghills.

My faith is in the Word of God, not the teachings of men. I see nothing about “snow covered dung” in Scripture. Do you?

What does your tradition teach about the unforgivable sin?

Scripture:Mark 3:28-30 “Truly I say to you, ALL sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”-- because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."No true believer would ever say Jesus had an unclean spirit. In reality that would make him an unbeliever.

Why do you suppose that God considers the consecration of our bodies to Him part of our spiritual worship?

Because we’re to worship God, who is holy, in spirit and truth - free of hypocrisy. And so, like Paul, we’re to discipline the body for godliness. We are to reflect in our bodies who and what we truly are spiritually and positionally now in Christ.

Why do you suppose that God has preserved some of the bodies of the saints?

Preserved?

 

[moondweller]

ncgolf:

Can you have “peace with God” while grieving the Holy Spirit?

That is still a very good and appropriate question.

The believer’s peace with God is through the fact that Christ was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification" (Rom. 4:25). “Therefore,” says Paul:"…having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."Do I have peace with myself when I sin? No. But I rejoice that my sin has been forgiven and cannot effect my justified state before God. And I rejoice that when I sin I have an Advocate before the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 Jn. 2:1); my High Priest who lives forever to intercede for me; hence, He is able to save me to the uttermost (forever, Heb. 7:25).

 

[moondweller]

tqualey:

No body with real Faith sits on their hands and cliams that they do not have to do anything. Really, Moondwelller, you have yet to address the issue in a forthright manner - begin to look at the words of Christ (as opposed to mis-reading the words of St. Paul) and see how clearly He tells people what they must DO.

You need to rightly divide the Word of Truth. In it there is what is written as to what one must DO to be saved:Acts 16:31 "They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,"And, how the saved are to live out their lives while here on earth in their yet unredeemed bodies:Rom 11:36 - 12:2 “For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him {be} the glory forever. Amen. Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”

And, you know what, one must KEEP DOING - or that heavenly reward will not be yours.

Salvation, justification and eternal life are called “gifts” in Scripture, not rewards. Like guanophore, you’re striving to be saved and justified according to law. Wrong principle: “But the righteous shall live by faith.”

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

Have you noticed that in the New Testament, we are always SAVED BY FAITH, while always JUDGED BASED on ACTIONS, with those doing the will of God going to heaven and those doing evil condemned to Hell.

No, I see nothing of the sort. Jesus said:John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.Also see 1 Jn. 5:9-15.

 

[ncgolf]

The believer’s peace with God is through the fact that Christ was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification" (Rom. 4:25). “Therefore,” says Paul:"…having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."Do I have peace with myself when I sin? No. But I rejoice that my sin has been forgiven and cannot effect my justified state before God.

Catholics do it a little differently as you would guess … our sins being forgiven in Reconciliation but the rejoicing is the same.

And I rejoice that when I sin I have an Advocate before the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 Jn. 2:1); my High Priest who lives forever to intercede for me; hence, He is able to save me to the uttermost (forever, Heb. 7:25).

It is the same Advocate and same High Priest … and by His grace I am saved also. He wishes that all seek His forgiveness.

 

[Always_For_Him]

God in his mercy can and will forgive all even on your last breath.

The problem with this statement is that the 2,000 year old Catholic Apostolic Church, who received Jesus Deposit of Faith, preserved it through the magisterium through the power of the Holy Spirit, and recorded in the NT Scripture it’s teachings, in many, many, many places taught that you had better not wait until your last breath. Don’t count on God to forgive you at the last minute. What if you are not remorseful enough for your sins? We are supposed to strive for forgiveness our whole lives by LIVING the FAITH doing ALL that Jesus commanded us to do. There is a lot Jesus told us that we HAD to do. The Gospels go into more detail about what, how, why, etc… Why do you just ignore those? What is so difficult to understand about grace through faith? It has been explained over and over again. This is the original understanding of Jesus’ Deposit of Faith. There is NO OTHER CONTEXT in which it can be understood and still be Apostolic teaching. Your, less that 500 year-old man-made, interpretation is taking you away from the Truth as the Catholic Church has always understood in context and has always taught and recorded at the NT. You can’t take the Catholic teachings as recorded as the NT and separate them from the Church that gave them to you. Man has done that and erred every time.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Moondweller,

Looks like all of those extra words in the Bible about people having Faith and then Acting on that Faith through Charity are just a waste of words. All one needs is Faith - and the assurance of salvation is there…

The problem with this other gospel of yours is that it does not exist in Scripture as an intact concept. Rather, it only exists as carefully removed verses contorted to produce the desired outcome of a man-made theology. The context you seek lies in the entire Bible - not isolated verses pulled out of their real context.

You need to rightly divide the Word of Truth. In it there is what is written as to what one must DO to be saved:

Acts 16:31 "They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,”
​

Remember, all those guys that said, “Lord, Lord…” believed … but failed to act and then failed the test of their lives.

Continue to dismiss the words of Christ that have been presented to you. Continue to dismiss the words of the Church that Christ founded. Continue on in this direction and you will miss much. The last four posters have presented excellent material, that I would encourage you to review at your leisure.

God bless​

 

[moondweller]

Catholics do it a little differently as you would guess … our sins being forgiven in Reconciliation but the rejoicing is the same.

Yes, the sacrament, not the cross.Col 1:22 "yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach–And Paul goes on to say:Col 1:23 "…if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."How tragic that so many have moved away from faith in the joyous, gospel message that men are reconciled to God through Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross and have turned aside rather to a sacrament.

It is the same Advocate and same High Priest … and by His grace I am saved also. He wishes that all seek His forgiveness.

Actually, I think the “wish” would be that all would believe. It’s through belief in the Son that sins are forever forgiven - according to the Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

Hi, Moondweller,

Looks like all of those extra words in the Bible about people having Faith and then Acting on that Faith through Charity are just a waste of words. All one needs is Faith - and the assurance of salvation is there…

Yes, the object of one’s faith being the Person and work of the incarnate Son (Acts 16:31).

Remember, all those guys that said, “Lord, Lord…” believed … but failed to act and then failed the test of their lives.

I do remember them very well. They claimed many works in His name and tried to enter the kingdom by those works. But Jesus said, “I never knew you.” If they’d believed He would have known them. He didn’t.

Continue to dismiss the words of Christ that have been presented to you. Continue to dismiss the words of the Church that Christ founded. Continue on in this direction and you will miss much.

But I will not have missed the Son in whom my faith lies. I know in whom I’ve believed. I know what He’s accomplished on my behalf.

 

[Howie01]

ncgolf:

Believing means following the commands ordained by Christ … and following the practices of the Apostles … it is not up to you decide which parts apply to oneself. Christ himself told his apostles to make disciples and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your issue is not with me but with Christ’s own words.

ISTM that you folks on the other side of the aisle see things that aren’t there, and read things that aren’t said. I don’t have a problem with Christ.

All I’ve said is that baptism is subsequent to the believer’s reception the HS, and his being sealed by the HS, and, that baptism is not necessary to salvation—it doesn’t justify, or save.

Likewise, your Church states that baptism is necessary, except when it isn’t (cf CCC para 1257-1260).

ncgolf:

Like all Abraham was saved by grace through faith …

Yes all are saved by grace through faith, and not by circumcision or baptism.

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Can a person receive the Holy Spirit without water and the word (Baptism)?

Yes.

That’s what I’ve been saying (cf Eph 1:13ff).

SHW:

These Gentiles received the Holy Spirit before water Baptism in order to show Peter that he was to baptize Gentiles….

My friend, no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3); therefore,
it would be impossible for one to understand baptism until he had been taught by the Spirit
(cf Jn 6:45 ).

SHW:

We are “born again” through Baptism (water and the spirit).

No my friend; one cannot even see the kingdom unless/until he is born again (Jn 3:3). Again, he’d have no knowledge of baptism—a spiritual thing—until he had received the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14). Only then can one submit to Christ in truth.

 

[Howie01]

guanophore:

It is not double talk, it is looking at the same thing from two perspectives. God has ordained that we be baptized, and He has tied this to salvation. From His point of view, though, it is not necessary. It is necessary for us, not for Him.

Sorry, but what you say makes no sense. I believe sacramentalism to be an error; that said however, if God has given sacraments, then God is bound by the sacrament when one engages in the sacrament.

If God is not bound by the sacrament, then He can decide not respond to the priest at the consecration; He can decide not to honor a sacramental marriage; He can decide not to offer forgiveness when one makes a sacramental confession, and so on, and so forth.

guanophore:

God is able to use any means He so desires to save…

Agreed.

guanophore:

We are not [able to use any means of salvation we desire]

We don’t possess the power of salvation. If we do, we don’t need Christ.

guanophore:

There are a few problems with this question. One is that Baptism is a NT commandment, so it does not apply to Abraham.

It’s a valid question. Let me ask you this, was Abraham saved by circumcision?

guanophore:

these were all under the covenant of circumcision. Baptism replaces circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom.

ISTM to in order for you to be consistent, your answer to my previous question must be: Yes, Abraham was saved by circumcision (cf Rom 4:10).

guanophore:

Faith is never separated from baptism.

Don’t be naïve; there are many who have never believed, but have been baptized. They’re designated as “tares,” and appear to be “wheat.”

guanophore:

No one can recognize the things that belong to God without His inspriation.

Inspiration is a theological term having to do with the prophets speaking forth the word of God—thus says the Lord—and the recording of the Scriptures.

guanophore:

It is not waffling. It is recognizing that God has given us certain commandments to follow, but that He does not have to follow them.

I’ve made my points with respect to that above.

guanophore:

I think you are right, about necessary having a specific meaning. However, an exception does not change that. All who make a profession of faith in Christ need to be baptized. God can save anyone He wants, whether they make a profession of faith, or not!

That’s a complete inversion of God’s word. IOW, by grace you have been saved through baptism.

guanophore:

No. He is not bound by the sacraments. We are.

Discussed above—God can decide not to honor sacramental participation.

guanophore:

Except that they were under a different covenant.

Here’s Ncgolf’s response to that:

Like all, Abraham was saved by grace through faith …

guanophore:

I am glad we are in agreement that grace saves. However, faith is never alone.

That’s what the Reformers said: Saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone.

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

Howie, arguing against Baptism is a fool’s errand.

I’m not arguing against baptism, Paul. Read my posts.

 

[moondweller]

It’s a valid question. Let me ask you this, was Abraham saved by circumcision?

Originally Posted by guanophore
these were all under the covenant of circumcision. Baptism replaces circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom.

ISTM to in order for you to be consistent, your answer to my previous question must be: Yes, Abraham was saved by circumcision (cf Rom 4:10).

Excellent point, Howie.

 

[SHW]

That’s what I’ve been saying (cf Eph 1:13ff).

Have you been reincarnated again? Rhetorical question!

There are two other types of Baptism besides water Baptism which was commanded by Jesus Christ: Baptism of Desire (for persons ignorant of Jesus’ command for “water and the word” Baptism) and Baptism of Blood (for martyrs such as the catechumens who died in the persecutions of the early Church before they received Baptism), but Jesus commanded us to be baptized in order to wash away our sins, so we obey Him. Paul commanded the converts to be baptized. They obeyed. Why don’t you?

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

My friend, no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3); therefore, it would be impossible for one to understand baptism until he had been taught by the Spirit
(cf Jn 6:45 ).

All of us persons who are taught by the Apostle’s successors of Jesus’ Church learn all about Baptism. (The Apostles represented Jesus’ authority on earth in early Church history and now their successors still represent Jesus’ authority on earth.) Their teaching has not changed.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

Why aren’t you doing what Paul commanded?

No my friend; one cannot even see the kingdom unless/until he is born again (Jn 3:3). Again, he’d have no knowledge of baptism—a spiritual thing—until he had received the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14). Only then can one submit to Christ in truth.

The Kingdom of God is within us. So when we are baptized (born again), we do receive the Spirit.

Luke 17:20-21 “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Perhaps you would know this truth if you had been baptized?

Pax,
SHW

I will ask you the same question that I asked moondweller:

**
Will persons, who claim they are Christians, inherit eternal life if they do not obey God’s commandments?**

Please use Scripture to back up your belief.

 

[guanophore]

First I would like to thank you for all your fine posts. They are a joy to read.

Let’s drop back to the basics first. When you are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, you are cleansed of all previous sins and given sufficient sanctifying grace to be saved. From that point forward, you are w****orking on your personal sanctification ****to stay in the state of grace.

I think this formulation produces unnecessary problems for our separated brethren, and those Catholics that have been steeped in Evangelical theology.

I say this for several reasons. Although it is clear that we are to “work”, most of our separated brethren have been given a great deal of misinformation about the role of faith and works. They have been shown already that “working on” is not a concept that can be supported in scripture.

This is a crucial point in helping them to understand the proper role of “work”. It is much more useful to approach it from a perspective that can be supported scripturally.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,** work out **your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."Phil 2:12-13

This is a critical difference. As you say, we are put in right relationship with God (justified) at baptism. At that point, we are sealed with His promised HS, and receive the guarantee of our inheritance. “Salvation” is placed in us, you describe this as “being given sufficient grace” to be saved. It is on the basis of this grace that we “work out” what is at work in us. It is no longer we that live, but Christ, who lives in us. The reason it is so important is that when we use the words “work on” many of our evangelical brethren understand this to mean that we can “work” our way into salvation, or into grace.

going to heaven isn’t about the number of good works that are done, its about staying in the state of grace by demonstrating your faith through actions.

There are over 1Billion Catholics in the world and they cover the full range from saints to sinners. There are probably Catholics in your own neighborhood who do the things you require, they just don’t do them for public display. Remember, there are millions of Catholic priest and religious that have given up everything for God and live the life of the first century Christians, in communities where they share everything. And yes, some of them didn’t do it successfully. That condemns them, not the rest of the Church. And yes, unfortunately, there are many Catholics in name only But there are also many devout Catholics who attend to the poor, go to mass Daily, teach the faith , wokr with the sick etc

Don’t be discouraged by individual Catholics who sin and cause scandal They are a small percentage of Catholics Rather focus on the Catholic ideals because that is what you want for yourself.
The Catholic Church offers two advantages over any other Christian Church. First, it offers the fullness of truth that was past down by the Apostles. All other Christians, unfortunately, only have the Bible to reference and are forced to do their own personal interpretation, which is often flawed. Second, it offers the sacraments, most particularly Baptism and Reconciliation, by which our sins are wiped clean, allowing us fresh starts on our sanctification. For sinful man, these are indespencible for salvation…

Good luck on your quest. CAF is a good place to get the answers you need.

 

[guanophore]

Believe what you want, guanophore, but according the Scripture the righteousness required by God did not, nor cannot, come through the Law.

Right. We are in agreement. Go back and read what I wrote. You seem so bent on reinforcing your prejudices against Catholicism that you cannot even read and process the posting!

What I wrote is what I want to believe, true. What I believe is the opposite of what you keep insisting I believe. It is right there for all to see.

The Scriptures are clear on this:

That is because the NT was written by Catholics, and they represent Catholic teaching.

  Contrary to the Word of God, you think righteousness is based on you being divinely aided to fulfill lawful commandments. But the Scripture has shut up all men "*under sin*," and all that any law could do is make this painfully evident.

Moon, my good man, you are so stuck in your prejudice that you are unable to admit anything that contradicts what you wish to believe. If you follow the little blue triangle back through the thread, you wil see that what I have said the Catholic Church teaches is exactly what the scriptures state.

I have been telling you for two years that righteousness is “based” on God’ grace, through faith. There is no ability fo man that is able to save ourselves. For some reason, you need to stubbornly ckong to your preconceived misconception that the Catholic Church teaches otherwise.

We fulfill the commandments by grace, through faith, not of ourselves, lest we should boast.

Those under the Law were not only sinners (as were Gentiles) but now, through the commandments, revealed to be transgressors as well - rendering sin utterly sinful; reflecting the utter hopelessness of all mankind. And as Jesus pointed out, transgression of the Law is not only an outward action but an inward thought as well. Remember, we’re dealing with an infinitely holy God who demands perfect righteousness.

Heb 10:38
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,

the OT Jews were justified by grace, through faith, just as we are. They were able to keep the law without fail because they did so by grace. Nothing has changed. Gentiles are also now able to keep the commandments by grace, through faith.

Hence, righteousness must be based entirely on a principle other than Law: That of FAITH.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

Therefore the Law has become our tutor (not as a means of righteousness) {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."

Gal 3:25-26 “But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (i.e., the Law). For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”[/indent]Totally contrary to the teachings of Catholicism, the righteousness required for salvation does not in any way come through the principle of law keeping (whether divinely aided or not), but it is gifted by God on the principle of faith (in Christ) alone:"…the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phil. 3:9).

There are some persons who were able to respond to that tutoring. There were some that were able to access salvation by grace, through faith.

I know, guanophore. That’s the teaching of Catholicism. But Divine Revelation clearly teaches us that the righteousness required for salvation is not based on the principle of Law - period, but the principle of grace through FAITH.

No, Moon, you are wrong. Our ability to fulfill the law is based on grace, through faith. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not to destroy it. He demonstrated how it is possible to walk perfectly in the Law of God. He gave us His Spirit so that we, too, can walk in this newness of life. Just like those that came before us (salvation is of the Jews) we can be righteous as He is righteous.

 

[paul_c]

I’m not arguing against baptism, Paul. Read my posts.

sure you are. Here’s one of you r recent posts:

ISTM that you folks on the other side of the aisle see things that aren’t there, and read things that aren’t said. I don’t have a problem with Christ.

All I’ve said is that baptism is subsequent to the believer’s reception the HS, and his being sealed by the HS, and, that baptism is not necessary to salvation—it doesn’t justify, or save.

Likewise, your Church states that baptism is necessary, except when it isn’t (cf CCC para

You are rendering baptism insignificant, hence you are arguing against baptism.