Someone can lose their salvation?

[guanophore]

Really? Guanophore, as a Catholic you cannot believe that men are righteous (justified) on the principle of faith in Christ alone;

You are right. Such a notion is considered heresy by the Apostles. The Apostles taught that we are justified by grace, and that grace is not “alone”. In order for justification to occur, grace must meet with faith.

God has created mankind with the capacity for faith. He kindles this capacity in us by His grace. If we choose to respond to His grace, then our faith “meets” grace, and it is there that we are justified.

Heb 4:2-3
2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said…"

It is necessary that we choose to meet His grace.

and on this same faith basis *forgiven* of ALL sins; forever *reconciled* to God; permanently *sanctified* as "*saints*" being now "*in Christ*" (resurrected); and *sealed* securely by the H.S. "*until the day of redemption*,"

No, you are right. God does not forgive sins on “faith basis”. He forgives us because of His mercy. Forgiveness is based on grace.

Faith is the faculty within us whereby we can reach out and meet grace. Even this cannot “work” (this is the “work” of God that you believe) we cannot do without His grace.

Further this grace places us in right relationship with God. Although it is true that all sins can be forgiven, there is no guarantee in scripture that we will be forgiven sins that occur after justfication.

Heb 10:26-31
26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I do agree that the sanctification that occurs at justification can be permanent. It has eternal quality. However, the individual is still able to step out of that eternal state. This is what Paul describes in Rom. 7. Paul sums up, as I am sure you will remember, that only Jesus can save him from his “body of death”. If one who is justifies turns his back on Jesus, there remains no sacrifice…

I know that the Scriptures never use the word “infused” in relation to the gift of Divine righteousness.

Yes, but the concept is there. Just as we don’t find the word “Trinity” in scripture, or “hypostatic union” we see that the concepts are there. What we do see, that is described as "infused’ is the term “poured out”. In fact, we see this in many places. We also receive the Apostolic Teaching that “reckoned” is not an empty term. When God “credits” we get actual real “credit”. God is not just doctoring the books, but genuinely making deposits into our account.

We have the “deposit” earned by Christ on the cross. It is a “real” deposit, actual credit, not just “so called” credit.

What men “think” and what God has “revealed” in His written Word are often at odds.

This is quite true. The best way to know for sure is to read what is written in the light of the faith of those who taught it. We have received the Apostolic faith. This is why we understand the scriptures differently.

We both agree that humans are saved by grace, through faith

I do, you don’t.

Have you considered how arrogant and narrow minded that you appear when you insist that what you think others believe has more merit than what such persons profess to believe?

You believe that men are saved by being divinely empowered to keep the Law.p/quote]

No, Moon, you are not listening. Human beings can only be saved by grace, through faith, not of their works, lest they be able to boast. It is grace that enables us to keep the commandments.

Just as those who were justified under the OT, they kept the Law by grace, through faith.

It is not the keeping of the Law that justifies us, but the grace that puts us in right relationship with God.
moondweller;4860321:

I disagree. I believe, according to the Scriptures, that upon belief in Christ God forgives men of ALL

sins,

Yes. The Apostles taught that baptism washes away all sin, both original, and personal.

and this Divine act is based on the once for all sin-bearing

sacrifice of His incarnate Son.

This is Catholic teaching. You find it in Scripture because the NT was written by Catholics, and reflects the Catholic faith.

You don’t. Sin, in fact, is still the major

issue in Catholicism; and its whole sacramental system is based around this major obstacle.

It boggles my mind that you have the audacity to inform me about what I believe.

The Catholic faith is based upon the person of Jesus, who purchased the forgiveness of sins by the shedding of His blood on the cross.

For some reason, you must create and maintain a false conception of the Catholic faith. I suspect you must do this so that you can keep yourself from admitting that this is the faith of the Apostles.

 

[SHW]

You are right. Such a notion is considered heresy by the Apostles. The Apostles taught that we are justified by grace, and that grace is not “alone”. In order for justification to occur, grace must meet with faith.

Good work!

Pax,
SHW

 

[guanophore]

Yes, the sacrament, not the cross.Col 1:22 "yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach–

You are creating a false dichotomy. There is no separation between the cross, and the reconciliation of men to Himself.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The cleansing occurs BECAUSE of the crosss.

And Paul goes on to say:Col 1:23 "...if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."

I am continually baffled how people can read the dozens of conditional statements in scripture such as this, and still believe that our actions do not impact the results.

How tragic that so many have moved away from faith in the joyous, gospel message that men are *reconciled to God* through Christ's sacrificial death on the cross and have turned aside rather to a sacrament.

I suppose, if this has actually happened in the mind of any, it is truly tragic. I suppose there are some that just do not really understand the Apostolic Teaching, and misperceive things.

“wish” would be that all would believe. It’s through belief in the Son that sins are forever forgiven - according to the Scriptures.

It is a false hope, since those who sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth no longer have a sacrifice for sins.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Have you noticed that in the New Testament, we are always SAVED BY FAITH, while always JUDGED BASED on ACTIONS, with those doing the will of God going to heaven and those doing evil condemned to Hell.

No, I see nothing of the sort. Jesus said:John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Moondweller, you are very quick to say to others to keep things in context, but you don’t feel obligated to do so yourself. Here you are isolating John 3: 18. but if you go on to look at the next 3 verses John 3: 19-21 you find that judgement is based on works:

And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, **so that his works might not be exposed. **But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

.

Similarly, here if you continue in the passage you see John 5: 28-29, where again he is judging based on works.
Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation

Also see 1 Jn. 5:9-15

if you had started at verse 1 John 2-3 you would have found he was talking about works:
In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

So based on this, you should now agree with my original premise. Please, lets not argue for argument sake. This is the truth, after being justified through grace by faith, demonstrated by baptism, man must stay in the state of grace through his works. and it is on those works that judgment rests.

 

[guanophore]

You do not agree that, according to the Scripture, the H.S. seals the believer until the day of the redemption.

This is a falsehood, Moon. In fact, I believe this very thing! It is true that I did not grasp this concept until I did my Master’s thesis on this at a Protestant Seminary. It was not until many years later that I understood that this was Catholic teaching all along! I was poorly catechized.

But instead you say that the “seal” is permanent, but the sealing of the believer is not (which is a blatant contradiction of terms - you think you’re talking to a three year old here, guanophore?).

I am not exactly sure here what you are accusing.

The seal is permanent. The person has the choice to remain within the permanence of the seal, or not. The reason we know that the seal is permanent is that those who choose not to live in congruency with the seal find that their last state is worse than the first.

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

The Apostles taught that there was no way to escape the defilements of this world except by the blood of Christ. Those who escaped had experiential "knowledge’ of Him. (saved). It is only by His salvation that we can escape the entanglement of sins. Only He can deliver us from the overpowerment of sins. THe Apostle speaks here of those who are saved, then fall away.

You do not believe at all that God Himself finishes the work He began, but that His work is forfeited through sin.

Of course only He can finish the work He begins!

Rom 14:4
It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.

Those who are to be upheld have to be willing to allow Him to make them stand. If they become entangled again by sin, there remains no sacrifice for them.

you believe that men have the burden, themselves, to finish the work that God first began in them (void of “mortal” sin), because you do not believe that God saved the believer through the “finished” work of Jesus Christ on the cross, alone.

I think it will never cease to amaze me to hear you tell me what I believe.

I have to state, though, for the record, that you are in error.

I believe that God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. I believe that, once we have died in Christ (through baptism)

Col 2:12-13
12 and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

it is no longer we (I) who live, but Christ, who lives in me:

Gal 2:20-21
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

I do not nullify the grace of God. THe life I now live in my body I live by faith in the son of God.

You seem to believe that Catholics achieve the fulfillment of the Law “of ourselves” which I think you mean “by the flesh”. This is not the case. We, just like the saints of God that have gone before us, fulill the Law by grace, through faith.

  read how Paul addrsses the believers at Corinth:[indent]1 Cor 1:2-9 "To the church of God which is at Corinth,    this to a church riddled with problems through spiritual immaturity.

This passage supports my position, that in spite of our immaturity, God’s grace is sufficient to bring us from where we are, to where we need to be. Why are you so afraid of becoming Catholic?

The *doctrines* of the "*Trinity*" and the "*Hypostatic Union*," developed after the Apostolic age because of controversy.  And those *doctrines* were based on what the Scriptures revealed.

Only in part, Moon. Scripture does accurately record the faith of the Apostles, but the heretics used those same scriptures, just as they do today, to support ideas that are contrary to the faith that Jesus taught. Yes, doctrines are developed because of heresy, to defend the truth, but the Truth was committed first to the Church, before any word of the NT was written.

 

[guanophore]

Your problem is you that you don’t believe the testimony of God concerning His Son, salvation and the free gift of righteousness through faith in Him alone.

I will never cease to marvel at your divine ability to determine and define my problems.

For the record, though, I must state that you are wrong. I believe that salvation is the free gift of God. I believe that humans are only saved by grace, through faith.

For this reason you're still striving to be justified through law keeping, but God has told you in His Word that righteousness is not at all based on the principle of law, but the principle of FAITH, alone - to the glory of His Son.

Indeed! And it is by His grace, when it meets with our faith, that we are enabled by His mighty power at work in us to keep the commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

My faith is in the Word of God, not the teachings of men.

I do see that you are very near to the Apostolic Teaching, which has been preserved in the Holy Writings.

I see nothing about “snow covered dung” in Scripture. Do you?

No, but I read the scripture from the perspective of those who wrote it, so I have a bias.

Because we’re to worship God, who is holy, in spirit and truth - free of hypocrisy. And so, like Paul, we’re to discipline the body for godliness. We are to reflect in our bodies who and what we truly are spiritually and positionally now in Christ.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

 

[guanophore]

You do not agree that, according to the Scripture, the H.S. seals the believer until the day of the redemption.

This is a falsehood, Moon. In fact, I believe this very thing! It is true that I did not grasp this concept until I did my Master’s thesis on this at a Protestant Seminary. It was not until many years later that I understood that this was Catholic teaching all along! I was poorly catechized.

But instead you say that the “seal” is permanent, but the sealing of the believer is not (which is a blatant contradiction of terms).

I am not exactly sure here what you are accusing.

The seal is permanent. The person has the choice to remain within the permanence of the seal, or not. The reason we know that the seal is permanent is that those who choose not to live in congruency with the seal find that their last state is worse than the first.

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

The Apostles taught that there was no way to escape the defilements of this world except by the blood of Christ. Those who escaped had experiential "knowledge’ of Him. (saved). It is only by His salvation that we can escape the entanglement of sins. Only He can deliver us from the overpowerment of sins. THe Apostle speaks here of those who are saved, then fall away.

You do not believe at all that God Himself finishes the work He began, but that His work is forfeited through sin.

Of course only He can finish the work He begins!

Rom 14:4
It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.

Those who are to be upheld have to be willing to allow Him to make them stand. If they become entangled again by sin, there remains no sacrifice for them.

you believe that men have the burden, themselves, to finish the work that God first began in them (void of “mortal” sin), because you do not believe that God saved the believer through the “finished” work of Jesus Christ on the cross, alone.

I think it will never cease to amaze me to hear you tell me what I believe.

I have to state, though, for the record, that you are in error.

I believe that God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. I believe that, once we have died in Christ (through baptism)

Col 2:12-13
12 and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

it is no longer we (I) who live, but Christ, who lives in me:

Gal 2:20-21
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

I do not nullify the grace of God. THe life I now live in my body I live by faith in the son of God.

You seem to believe that Catholics achieve the fulfillment of the Law “of ourselves” which I think you mean “by the flesh”. This is not the case. We, just like the saints of God that have gone before us, fulill the Law by grace, through faith.

 The Apostles were not familiar with either of the words "Trinity" or "Hypostatic Union."  Nor did they employ the word "*infused*" in connection with divine righteousness.

Are you trying to suggest that the Apostles didn not believe these things, because they did not use those words?

True. Reckoned (credited) is an accounting term. And when it is credited to one’s account, it TRULY is there. It’s his/hers!

This is the apostolic teaching on righteousness. It is not just “doctored books” that appear to impute righteousness, but an actual and real “deposit” that is credited. We become the righteousness of God in Christ. Not just “declared” so, although that is also true, but in actuality made so.

But God, by His infinite grace, went one step further and transferred, or, imputed, Divine righteousness to us from His dear Son. So the believer is not just at a *zero* balance having had  all his sins forgiven (Col. 2:13-14), but by Divine grace he is on the PLUS side (credits) of the Divine Ledger having been reckoned righteous.

this is the Catholic understanding of imputation.

Oh, this credited, imputed, Divine righteousness is REAL, guanophore, VERY, VERY REAL. It is permanently real being “judicially” applied, and is personally real in that the true believer is now, positionally, in the resurrected Christ, no longer in Adam. It’s revealed in Scripture that with Christ he has died to sin," once for all, and with Him raised to new life “in Him,” having been imputed His righteousness (Eph. 2:5-7; Col. 3:1-4). All this is revealed and documented in Scripture for all generations to know.

And it is documented as such because the NT was written by Catholics, and CAtholics believe this. It is REAL (imparted/infused) rightousness.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Let’s drop back to the basics first. When you are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, you are cleansed of all previous sins and given sufficient sanctifying grace to be saved. From that point forward, you are working on your personal sanctification to stay in the state of grace.

I think this formulation produces unnecessary problems for our separated brethren, and those Catholics that have been steeped in Evangelical theology.

I say this for several reasons. Although it is clear that we are to “work”, most of our separated brethren have been given a great deal of misinformation about the role of faith and works. They have been shown already that “working on” is not a concept that can be supported in scripture.

This is a crucial point in helping them to understand the proper role of “work”. It is much more useful to approach it from a perspective that can be supported scripturally.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,** work out **your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."Phil 2:12-13

This is a critical difference. As you say, we are put in right relationship with God (justified) at baptism. At that point, we are sealed with His promised HS, and receive the guarantee of our inheritance. “Salvation” is placed in us, you describe this as “being given sufficient grace” to be saved. It is on the basis of this grace that we “work out” what is at work in us. It is no longer we that live, but Christ, who lives in us. The reason it is so important is that when we use the words “work on” many of our evangelical brethren understand this to mean that we can “work” our way into salvation, or into grace.

WE are clearly judged based on our works. This is fully scriptural. See matthew 19:16;19 for example:
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

The truth is the truth and need not be glossed over because the reformers see it differently. Now it is very true that you can’t earn your way into heaven. The whole process starts with unmerited grace through baptism. But once you are baptized, you need to work on staying in the state of Grace. This is shown through works. And sure, we can and should attribute all our positive needs to God’s graces but this does not negate the fact that we are responsible to do our part in cooperating with God for our own salvation. The reformers like to think that we have no responsiblity to work toward holiness. This is a great error on their part.

 

[broski234]

I’m not arguing against baptism, Paul. Read my posts.

Please refer back to my post to you at 873

 

[broski234]

Excellent point, Howie.

Please address my question on post 844. Thanks

 

[ncgolf]

Yes, the sacrament, not the cross.

The sacrament is only powerful because of Christ’s sacrifice.

The two are interwined and cannot be seperated … your words do not make it so. Why do you continually look to divide?

We follow all that Christ commanded and all that is taught by the Apostles.

Col 1:23 “…if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

You know what really bothers me with Scriptual tidbitting … that you do not even post all the verse in 23 … you give a ‘…’ well the verse in it’s entirety says 23 **'provided that you remain in **the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Paul says “provided you remain in the faith” clearly is a conditional statement … these are not unbelievers to whom he is speaking … they are in the faith (in Christ) currently so why “provided”? Seems an odd word if Paul’s theology is indeed reformed. Clearly one “in Christ” may not always be in that state. Words like “steadfast”, “firmly”, “not moved away” indicate struggle to remain “in Christ”.

That word would not be necessary if Paul taught as you believe. You state there is no condition that removes you from the faithful but Paul disagrees … is that why you conviently leave off potentially troublesome words.

To remain “in the faith” is to remain “in Christ” so what would cause someone not to “remain in the faith” … it is only 1 thing for a believer to not be “in Christ”… and that is sin … and that is Catholic theology. We believe the “provided one remains in the faith” … and you do not.

It is also “in the faith” … not “in faith”. I find that to be huge difference.

I can predict your response … the “true” believer is protected … you can make that distinction but Paul does not.

through Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross and have turned aside rather to a sacrament.Actually, I think the “wish” would be that all would believe. The tragedy is the twisting of Paul … conciously leaving out words … thereby trying to deceive. Paul’s message is one of hope and the message is indeed glorious “provided one remains in the faith”.

It is obvious for this to be true one must be “in Christ” … some were once “in Christ” and do not remain and that is the Catholic position.

I agree with you though … for you to believe as you do … you must quote Col 1:23 as you did in this post.

 

[Howie01]

broski234:

With all due respect Howie, but this makes no sense whatsoever. “As with circumcision, so too with baptism, neither saves, but grace alone, through faith alone”. No sense. Correct me if I am wrong in what you are trying to say, but you are saying we are saved by God’s grace alone, through our faith alone? That’s ridiculous! If it’s faith alone, its not grace alone. Do you see the logical inconsistency here?

There’s no logical inconsistency, broski, but a lack of understanding on your part as to the meaning, weight and point of the 5 solas. The “onlys” are for emphatic emphasis.

broski234:

Scripture is very clear that baptism does indeed save us and that if we are not born of water and the spirit, we will not have eternal life. Circumcision was the sign of the old covenant. To be in covenant with God, you had to be circumcised. So indeed circumcision saved people in the old covenant. IT WAS PART OF THE SALVATION PROCESS!!!

Well broski, you’re wrong about that; however, I’ll give you an A+ for being consistent with respect to the counterpart of salvific baptism; namely, salvific circumcision. (ISTM that there are as many disparate beliefs in Catholicism as there are individual Catholics in Catholicism. Which Catholic does one believe concerning Catholic teaching?)

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

There are two other types of Baptism besides water Baptism which was commanded by Jesus Christ: Baptism of Desire (for persons ignorant of Jesus’ command for “water and the word” Baptism) and Baptism of Blood (for martyrs such as the catechumens who died in the persecutions of the early Church before they received Baptism), but Jesus commanded us to be baptized in order to wash away our sins, so we obey Him. Paul commanded the converts to be baptized. They obeyed. Why don’t you?

I am baptized.

SHW:

Why aren’t you doing what Paul commanded?

I am. By the way, will you provide a list of all of the unwritten apostolic traditions, and provide attribution for each unwritten apostolic tradition with respect to which apostles didn’t write which unwritten tradition?

SHW:

Perhaps you would know this truth if you had been baptized?

I am baptized.

Will persons, who claim they are Christians, inherit eternal life if they do not obey God’s commandments?

Of course.

SHW:

Please use Scripture to back up your belief.

I’ll use the Catholic Church as a proof.

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ instituted a sacrament of reconciliation.

The purpose of this sacrament of reconciliation is that Catholics who disobey God’s commandments can confess their disobedience to God’s commandments to a priest, receive absolution for their disobedience to God’s commandments from the priest, maintain a state of grace by their confession and penance, and thereby inherit eternal life.

 

[PapaSquash]

I am baptized.

I am. By the way, will you provide a list of all of the unwritten apostolic traditions, and provide attribution for each unwritten apostolic tradition with respect to which apostles didn’t write which unwritten tradition?

I am baptized.

Of course.

I’ll use the Catholic Church as a proof.

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ instituted a sacrament of reconciliation.

The purpose of this sacrament of reconciliation is that Catholics who disobey God’s commandments can confess their disobedience to God’s commandments to a priest, receive absolution for their disobedience to God’s commandments from the priest, maintain a state of grace by their confession and penance, and thereby inherit eternal life.

Just to be clear - are you arguing that people can’t lose salvation by saying they can re-gain it?

 

[moondweller]

So you believe that baptism does nothing correct? It’s just a symbol to you?

Yes. You can baptize a person all day long and it has the power to do nothing. The false notion that the act itself of baptizing washes away “original sin” opened the door to infant baptism.

It is those who have BELIEVED the message of the cross of Christ that are to be subsequently baptized (Mk. 16:16; Acts 8:12, 13; 18:8; 19:4). Baptism is an outward expression of one’s personal belief within.

I do not accept the Catholic notion that baptism now replaces circumcision. But we can apply to baptism what Paul said about the Jew and circumcision:Rom 2:29 "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."If there’s no faith within, the water put on the flesh has no meaning whatsoever. The chronology goes like this: (1) BELIEVE, (2) then those that have BELIEVED are to be baptized. But it’s the belief that matters.Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

 

[Howie01]

PapaSquash:

I don’t know that Scripture anywhere says what one has to do to be condemned.

It does, as pointed out earlier, Mk 16:16, and I believe I cited Jn 3:36 as well.

PapaSquash:

After all, one doesn’t have to do anything to be condemned - it is the default state of the human soul.

They must continue to death in that default state.

PapaSquash:

The goal is to “embrace the grace” of God and get the switch set to “saved” and keep it there.

And who’s responsible for keeping the switch on saved?

PapaSquash:

They were saved by God according to his terms. He laid out the terms and they accepted them.

Not all of them. Many rejected the terms and went after other gods.

PapaSquash:

They were under a different covenant. I am under the covenant outlined in the Gospels - I’m not about to try and renegotiate the terms or hold out to see if I get a better offer.

There’s only one Gospel. The necessity is to correctly discern the terms of that Gospel.

PapaSquash:

Just to be clear - are you arguing that people can’t lose salvation by saying they can re-gain it?

No.

My statement was a response to this question:

Will persons, who claim they are Christians, inherit eternal life if they do not obey God’s commandments?

As you can see, the question is not concerned with the loss and reacquisition of salvation.

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

WE are clearly judged based on our works. This is fully scriptural. See matthew 19:16;19 for example:

Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

That is the very law by which Paul says no one will be saved (Rom 3:20), and to the best of my recollection, Catholics agree with Paul on that point; isn’t that correct?
paul c:

The truth is the truth and need not be glossed over because the reformers see it differently.

I’m not following you; please specify what "IT" is that the Reformers see differently.
paul c:

Now it is very true that you can’t earn your way into heaven. The whole process starts with unmerited grace through baptism. But once you are baptized, you need to work on staying in the state of Grace.

ISTM that you’re making a distinction between a "state of grace," and a "state of salvation;" are you making a distinction?
paul c:

This is shown through works.

"This" is shown through works? What’s "this?"
paul c:

And sure, we can and should attribute all our positive needs to God’s graces but this does not negate the fact that we are responsible to do our part in cooperating with God for our own salvation.

So you are working for your salvation?
paul c:

The reformers like to think that we have no responsiblity to work toward holiness.

Which reformers ”like to think that we have no responsibility to work toward holiness?
paul c:

This is a great error on their part.

Rather than it being ”a great error on their part,” methinks it a great misrepresentation on yours.

I await your list of reformers who taught the shunning of responsiblity in holiness?

 

[paul_c]

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
WE are clearly judged based on our works. This is fully scriptural. See matthew 19:16;19 for example:

Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

That is the very law by which Paul says no one will be saved (Rom 3:20), and to the best of my recollection, Catholics agree with Paul on that point; isn’t that correct?

So what do you suggest on this one? Do you value Paul’s opinion over that of Jesus? If you believe in Sola Fides, that is what you have to do, isn’t it?

Actually, both are correct. Paul is correct in saying that you can not be SAVED by following the law. Salvation is by Grace through faith demonstrated by Baptism. However, Salvation in this sense is not permanent. You still need to stay in the state of Grace until death. To do that, we need to do God’s will which as Jesus points out means following the commandments

And by the way, Paul says the very same thing in the letter to the Romans you quote, Look back one chapter to Romans 2. there you will find these verses (5-8):

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness

and in verses 15-16:
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

So even Paul, to whom you owe all your quotes on Sola Fides, actually recognizes the Catholic position of having to demonstrate your faith through works and that your ultimate judgment will be on what you do, not what you say

as for this sequence:

Originally Posted by paul c
Now it is very true that you can’t earn your way into heaven. The whole process starts with unmerited grace through baptism. But once you are baptized, you need to work on staying in the state of Grace.

ISTM that you’re making a distinction between a “state of grace,” and a “state of salvation;” are you making a distinction?

I’m not making a distinction between state of grace and state of salvation, they are one in the same. What I’m pointing out to you is that OSAS is simply wrong. You are given the opportunity to be saved through Baptism, but you must cooperate with God to remain in the state of Grace and actually go to heaven . To get to Heaven, you need to persevere in the faith, demonstrated by doing the will of God. If you don’t believe that, then Jesus’s words mean nothing to you.

 

[SHW]

This is the truth, after being justified through grace by faith, demonstrated by baptism, man must stay in the state of grace through his works. and it is on those works that judgment rests.

:clapping:

Way to go Paul C.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

I am. By the way, will you provide a list of all of the unwritten apostolic traditions, and provide attribution for each unwritten apostolic tradition with respect to which apostles didn’t write which unwritten tradition?

Hi Howie01,

Read the writings of the Early Church Fathers and you will find most of these “unwritten” Apostolic traditions “written” there and also how they came about. You can read this for yourself. It will take some time but I guarantee you that it is a fascinating read.

http://newadvent.org/fathers/index.html

Please let me know when you have read all of them. Then we can discuss them if you’d like to.

I am baptized.

Praise God! Apparently the Holy Spirit didn’t teach you everything personally though, huh?

Yes, the Catholic Church does teach that we can be reconciled to God again after we commit mortal sins in disobedience to God’s commandments and this is done by the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

However, that is not what I wanted you to answer. I will restate it:

If a person, who claims to be “born again” or who has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, etc., disobeys God’s commandments; and if he dies without repenting; will this person still be justified on Judgment Day? Will he inherit eternal life without repenting?

Pax,
SHW