Someone can lose their salvation?

[Howie01]

paul c:

So what do you suggest on this one?

What do I suggest? All I asked of you was whether or not you side with other Catholics who agree with Paul that it’s an impossibility to be saved by the very law Jesus is talking about (Rom 3:20)?
paul c:

Do you value Paul’s opinion over that of Jesus? If you believe in Sola Fides, that is what you have to do, isn’t it?

No Paul, reformed theology does a superb job of synthesizing all of scripture. That theology is very sound, and though not all agree with it, it’s quite difficult to punch holes in it.
paul c:

Actually, both are correct. Paul is correct in saying that you can not be SAVED by following the law. Salvation is by Grace through faith demonstrated by Baptism. However, Salvation in this sense is not permanent. You still need to stay in the state of Grace until death. To do that, we need to do God’s will which as Jesus points out means following the commandments

And yet, the clear teaching of Christ’s apostle, Paul of Tarsus, to whom the Gospel of Christ was delivered by the personal revelation from Christ (Gal 1:1-2), states that no man will be saved by works of the commandments (Rom 3:20). :ehh:
paul c:

And by the way, Paul says the very same thing in the letter to the Romans you quote, Look back one chapter to Romans 2.

The statement in Romans 2 is not unique to Jesus and Paul, but is the clear and consistent message of all of Scripture. God will judge all of the world, even believers, but unlike the world, believers will not be condemned:**John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment…**IOW, the Lord expects His to arrive in heaven with works.

However, the Lord also knows that because they are His, they presently understand that their arrival in heaven is not on the basis of their works, but by the grace of God. :extrahappy:

Reformed theology has always taught that God will judge the world, including believers, but that, as the Lord says, believers do not come into judgment/condemnation, but have passed out of death into life.
paul c:

So even Paul, to whom you owe all your quotes on Sola Fides, actually recognizes the Catholic position of having to demonstrate your faith through works and that your ultimate judgment will be on what you do, not what you say

There’s only one true position Paul, and that is God’s position as revealed in Scripture.

Though every person will give an account, the believer does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Let me re-phrase for you an earlier question you put to me: Do you value the Catholic opinion over the Lord’s revelation???
.

**Also, Paul, ISTM that you’re ignoring the rest of questions to you from my post #913 concerning your misrepresentation of the Reformers.

I’m still awaiting the support for your position on that.** :coffeeread:

 

[paul_c]

What do I suggest? All I asked of you was whether or not you side with other Catholics who agree with Paul that it’s an impossibility to be saved by the very law Jesus is talking about (Rom 3:20)?

No Paul, reformed theology does a superb job of synthesizing all of scripture. That theology is very sound, and though not all agree with it, it’s quite difficult to punch holes in it.

And yet, the clear teaching of Christ’s apostle, Paul of Tarsus, to whom the Gospel of Christ was delivered by the personal revelation from Christ (Gal 1:1-2), states that no man will be saved by works of the commandments (Rom 3:20). :ehh:

The statement in Romans 2 is not unique to Jesus and Paul, but is the clear and consistent message of all of Scripture. God will judge all of the world, even believers, but unlike the world, believers will not be condemned:John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment…IOW, the Lord expects His to arrive in heaven with works.

However, the Lord also knows that because they are His, they presently understand that their arrival in heaven is not on the basis of their works, but by the grace of God. :extrahappy:

Reformed theology has always taught that God will judge the world, including believers, but that, as the Lord says, believers do not come into judgment/condemnation, but have passed out of death into life.

There’s only one true position Paul, and that is God’s position as revealed in Scripture.

Though every person will give an account, the believer does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Let me re-phrase for you an earlier question you put to me: Do you value the Catholic opinion over the Lord’s revelation???

So you believe that there is a judgment but that it is meaningless because the saved are bypassing judgement and the unsaved are condemned? Why have a judgment in that case. And how do you explain Matthew 25: 31-46, where everyone is clearly judged on what they have done.

The problem with your theology is that it renders whole sections of the Gospel insignificant. Why bother with the sermon on the mount if your actions don’t affect your salvation.

You might think your theology is unassailable, but that’s clearly not the case.

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Hi Howie01,

Read the writings of the Early Church Fathers and you will find most of these “unwritten” Apostolic traditions “written” there and also how they came about. You can read this for yourself. It will take some time but I guarantee you that it is a fascinating read.

newadvent.org/fathers/index.html

Please let me know when you have read all of them. Then we can discuss them if you’d like to.

I have Schaff’s 38 volume edition in my library, and do not intend to read them all.

SHW:

Praise God! Apparently the Holy Spirit didn’t teach you everything personally though, huh?

No He didn’t; as Moses says:Deuteronomy 29:29“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

SHW:

Yes, the Catholic Church does teach that we can be reconciled to God again after we commit mortal sins in disobedience to God’s commandments and this is done by the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

However, that is not what I wanted you to answer.

I knew that when I answered your question as originally stated.

SHW:

I will restate it:

Yes, I’ve been waiting for your question’s next iteration.

SHW:

If a person, who claims to be “born again” or who has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, etc., disobeys God’s commandments; and if he dies without repenting; will this person still be justified on Judgment Day? Will he inherit eternal life without repenting?

ISTM that you are presenting two different people.

Namely, the former who claims to be born again, and the latter, who has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. Is that correct? If so, which do you prefer my response to address?

I await your question’s next iteration.

 

[Howie01]

So you believe that there is a judgment but that it is meaningless because the saved are bypassing judgement and the unsaved are condemned? Why have a judgment in that case. And how do you explain Matthew 25: 31-46, where everyone is clearly judged on what they have done.

The problem with your theology is that it renders whole sections of the Gospel insignificant. Why bother with the sermon on the mount if your actions don’t affect your salvation.

You might think your theology is unassailable, but that’s clearly not the case.

First things first, Paul.

After you provide support for your statements concerning the Reformers who taught no responsibility for holiness, or, when you admit that you’ve misrepresented the Reformed position on that, I’ll dispatch the question you’ve posed in this post.

 

[SHW]

And yet, the clear teaching of Christ’s apostle, Paul of Tarsus, states that no man will be saved by works of the commandments (Rom 3:20)

Hi Howie01

Rom 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

This is in reference to the **Law **of Moses; not the eternal commandments of God.

Romans 9:31-32 “but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.”

The Israelites thought that they could be reconciled to God (atone for Adam’s sin) by works of the Law of Moses. They were incorrect. Only Jesus, by His perfect offering of His Self-Sacrifice on the Cross, to His Father, could reconcile them to God. (Romans 5)

John 7:19 "Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”

Acts 13:38-39 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

The eternal commandments of God and the works of the Law of Moses of the OT Covenant are two completely different things. The Commandments of God, Jesus said, are for all time. The Law of Moses with its myriad of rules and regulations for dietary practices, sacrifice and worship requirements, etc., was made obsolete by Jesus’ New Covenant. These works of the Law of Moses could never atone for Adam’s sin. Jesus, alone, could and did atone for Adam’s sin which had made us enemies of God and had barred us from eternal life. Jesus atoned for Adam’s sin and reconciles us to God through Baptism. Baptism applies the merits of Jesus’ atonement to our souls and this justifies us.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” This is describing Baptism and Jesus commanded that we be baptized in order to become His disciples.

Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”

Jesus does not state what “all the things that He commanded them” were. He tells them to** teach** them; He does not tell them to write them down. He promised to send them the Holy Spirit who would teach them all things necessary.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

Matthew 19:16-22 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him,… But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Cain’s punishment and banishment by/from God for murdering Abel happened a long time before this commandment against murder was also written on a stone tablet for the Israelites. The law against murder is eternal.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment…

However, the Lord also knows that because they are His, they presently understand that their arrival in heaven is not on the basis of their works, but by the grace of God.
… but that, as the Lord says, believers do not come into judgment/condemnation, but have passed out of death into life.

… the believer does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Let me re-phrase for you an earlier question you put to me: Do you value the Catholic opinion over the Lord’s revelation???

I value both since they are exactly the same thing. You have misinterpreted Scripture so that it fits your “dogma.” Unfortunately for you, since you are “untaught” you are “unstable” and twist the Scriptures to fit your own erroneous thinking.

2 Peter 3:15-17 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked”

Pax,
SHW

 

[paul_c]

First things first, Paul.

After you provide support for your statements concerning the Reformers who taught no responsibility for holiness, or, when you admit that you’ve misrepresented the Reformed position on that, I’ll dispatch the question you’ve posed in this post.

Are you trying to learn the truth or trying to control the conversation?

I didn’t respond to all those questions because the answers were embedded in my previous response.

I will answer them here:

So you are working for your salvation?

I would describe it as I am working to stay in the state of Grace.

Which reformers ”like to think that we have no responsibility to work toward holiness?

Any reformer who believes that they are saved simply by believing in Jesus and who does not believe they have to demonstrate that faith through works to achieve Heaven. Aren’t you in this category?

 

[SHW]

I have Schaff’s 38 volume edition in my library, and do not intend to read them all.
No He didn’t; as Moses says:Deuteronomy 29:29“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.
I knew that when I answered your question as originally stated.

Yes, I’ve been waiting for your question’s next iteration.

ISTM that you are presenting two different people.

Namely, the former who claims to be born again, and the latter, who has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. Is that correct? If so, which do you prefer my response to address?

I await your question’s next iteration.

Hi Howie02,

Excuse me, I mistakenly thought they were one and the same.

But, since you require clarification in order to reply: If a person, who has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, commits adultery and does not repent before death, will he/she still be saved?

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

“We fulfill the commandments by grace, through faith, not of ourselves, lest we should boast.”

You’re really confounding the Scriptures here. It’s "Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."It states that salvation is by grace through faith. It states nothing about fulfilling commandments by grace through faith. Your reading such a notion into that verse is derived from your belief that salvation, even justification, has to do with the principle of law (commandment) keeping. For instance, you wrote:

“the OT Jews were justified by grace, through faith, just as we are. They were able to keep the law without fail because they did so by grace. Nothing has changed. Gentiles are also now able to keep the commandments by grace, through faith.”

“No, Moon, you are wrong. Our ability to fulfill the law is based on grace, through faith. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not to destroy it. He demonstrated how it is possible to walk perfectly in the Law of God.”

“No, Moon, you are not listening. Human beings can only be saved by grace, through faith, not of their works, lest they be able to boast. It is grace that enables us to keep the commandments.”

You state that your belief is that “grace” is the power bestowed by God on men to keep the Law for salvation. And that by law keeping men are justified.

But you utterly fail to understand the gospel message that Divine justification is based totally on a different principle than law keeping altogether: FAITH.Rom 3:21-24 “But now apart from (Gr. choris, “without any”) law {the} righteousness of God (that which is imputed, credited) has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all (Jews and Gentiles) sinned (in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified (How? By being divinely enabled to keep the Law? NO!) as a gift by His grace (through fulfilling law? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” Notice right at the beginning Paul states that righteousness/justification is “**apart from law.” Law is described as a spectator, not a participant. It’s revealed that righteousness/justification is based on a principle other than law keeping altogether: FAITH. Just as Paul continues to teach:Rom 3:27-28 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from (Gr. choris, “without any”) works (Gr. ergon, “any product whatever”) of law.IOW, without any works produced by men under a principle of law.

Why must justification be based on a principle other than law? Because, says Paul, ALL men sinned (in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God.

What Paul is saying is that Adam sinned in the Garden and continued to sin outside the Garden, after his expulsion. And so do we, his descendants. Hence, justification must be based on a principle other than works of law. A child could conclude this.

God in His infinite mercy provided it: The principle of FAITH, according to His grace through the redemption which Christ accomplished, once for all, through His blood sacrifice on the cross (see 1 Pet. 1:18-19).

Divine redemption, forgiveness, reconciliation, and justification are all acts of God “apart from” (Gr. choris, without any) law." The principle of law has NOTHING to do with these Divine acts toward the believer in Christ.**

 

[moondweller]

“Further this grace places us in right relationship with God. Although it is true that all sins can be forgiven, there is no guarantee in scripture that we will be forgiven sins that occur after justification.”

The gospel commissioned to the Apostles by Christ did not say that sins “can be” forgiven, or that they “will be” forgiven. But instead they announced that:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."They in fact proclaimed forgiveness:Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,"There’s was no “can be,” or, “no guarantee that they will be,” “gospel.” But that through faith in Him your sins ARE forgiven. Like a proclamation of a king through his ambassadors of good will.

You also made this erroneous statement and you claim that the Catholic faith is based on it:

“The Catholic faith is based upon the person of Jesus, who purchased the forgiveness of sins by the shedding of His blood on the cross.”

The Scriptural truth is that Christ didn’t purchase “forgiveness of sins,” but He purchased men with the shedding of His blood. This is what Biblical redemption means. Peter writes through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:1 Pet 1:17-19 “If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay {on earth;} knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ.”

Note: Yes, paul c., the works of the redeemed will be judged (appraised) and rewarded accordingly, but their salvation is not based on those works (1 Cor. 3:10-15).

Acts 20:28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

1 Cor 6:20 "For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Rev 5:9 "And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."Now it’s true that the forgiveness of sins is based on the blood shed by God’s unblemished Lamb, but by that blood He redeemed (ransomed), once for all, all who believe in Him.

You then wrote:

“I do agree that the sanctification that occurs at justification can be permanent. It has eternal quality. However, the individual is still able to step out of that eternal state.”

Guanophore, does the resurrection of Jesus Christ only have an “eternal quality?” Or is it factually,“eternal?” Is He not a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek “according to the power of an indestructible life” (Heb. 7:16)?

Now it’s stated that the believer is sanctified in Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 1:2). Is not the believer now sanctified in the resurrected Christ? And is not His resurrected, glorified state eternal?

In truth, true believers are imputed the righteousness of the resurrected, glorified Christ (justified), as well as sanctified in Him. Hence, both justification and sanctification are as eternal as the resurrected, glorified Christ Himself; both having their origin in Him.

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Rom 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

This is in reference to the Law of Moses; not the eternal commandments of God.

The eternal commandments of God and the works of the Law of Moses of the OT Covenant are two completely different things. The Commandments of God, Jesus said, are for all time. The Law of Moses with its myriad of rules and regulations for dietary practices, sacrifice and worship requirements, etc., was made obsolete by Jesus’ New Covenant. These works of the Law of Moses could never atone for Adam’s sin.

Ahh, I see.

You’re making a common error, my friend.

The law of Moses contains all of the commandments of God.

The law has two parts: 1) The Moral law, and 2) the Sacrificial, or ritual law.

The Sacrificial, or ritual law, was binding only on Israel, and is that portion of the law which is now obsolete. The moral law has always been binding on all men everywhere.

The distinction between the moral and ritual law is shown in the OT in that God never punished Gentiles for not observing the sacrificial law, but He did punish Gentiles for transgressing the moral law.

Going back to your first point, Rom 3:20 is in reference to the moral law, what you’re calling ”the eternal commandments."

This is seen when one goes back to chapter 2:**Romans 2:17-2217 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God,

18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,

19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,

21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?

22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?**That is the moral law, the Decalogue, to which Paul refers in Rom 3:20—that law which cannot save through keeping, because it cannot be kept.

The moral law’s sole purpose is to impart to the creature the knowledge that he is sinful. As Paul states: ”through the law comes the knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20).

That point is reiterated by Paul in Rom 7:**Verse 7
…I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”**Once again, keeping the law cannot save because that’s not the purpose of the law.

And again, the purpose of the law is to give the knowledge of sin, and in so doing, the law kills:Romans 7:8-11But sin…through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind…when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through [the commandment] killed me.
Back to the point, the law spoken of in Rom 3:20 is the moral law, which is binding on all men everywhere, and which cannot save a man, but only kill him.

 

[paul_c]

1 Pet 1:17-19 “If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay {on earth;} knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ.”

Note: Yes, paul c., the works of the redeemed will be judged (appraised) and rewarded accordingly, but their salvation is not based on those works (1 Cor. 3:10-15).

So moondweller, what does it really mean to be judged and rewarded based on works if it has no effect on salvation? Are you thinking they get a better place in heaven, or something to that effect?

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Hi Howie02,

Excuse me, I mistakenly thought they were one and the same.

But, since you require clarification in order to reply: If a person, who has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, commits adultery and does not repent before death, will he/she still be saved?

Upon hearing the gospel, and repenting and believing, the believer is sealed by the Spirit, and all of his sins, past, present and future, are forgiven along with any guilt or debt to the law (Eph 1:13-14; Rom 7:1-6; Col 2:13-14).

To the point, all of those who are Christ’s repent before death; all of those who are Christ’s strive for holiness throughout their lives; all of those who are Christ’s will sin; all of those who are Christ’s will have sorrow concerning their sin, and all of those who are Christ’s will go to heaven because of the forgiveness of their sins.

 

[broski234]

There’s no logical inconsistency, broski, but a lack of understanding on your part as to the meaning, weight and point of the 5 solas. The “onlys” are for emphatic emphasis.

Well broski, you’re wrong about that; however, I’ll give you an A+ for being consistent with respect to the counterpart of salvific baptism; namely, salvific circumcision. (ISTM that there are as many disparate beliefs in Catholicism as there are individual Catholics in Catholicism. Which Catholic does one believe concerning Catholic teaching?)

Instead of giving me your opinion, why don’t you actually back up what you say. Give me book, chapter, verse, history, and a little common sense when you decide to reply to me. No offense, but telling me I have a lack of understanding is not the way to go here. I am not wrong about that. Baptism is explicitly stated in the bible as saving us. Baptism is specifically stated as leading us to eternal life. Baptism is directly compared to/the equivalent of the OT circumcision by Paul. May the scales be removed from your eyes.

God Bless

 

[broski234]

Yes. You can baptize a person all day long and it has the power to do nothing.

Well lets see about that…

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

**Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 **- these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

**Rom. 6:4 **- in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Continued…

 

[broski234]

Yes. You can baptize a person all day long and it has the power to do nothing.

Pay attention really close to this next verse…

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah’s ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase “not as a removal of dirt from the body” is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, “I have a baptism to be baptized with” referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says “are you able…to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?,” referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

 

[Howie01]

broski234:

Instead of giving me your opinion, why don’t you actually back up what you say. Give me book, chapter, verse, history, and a little common sense when you decide to reply to me. No offense, but telling me I have a lack of understanding is not the way to go here. I am not wrong about that. Baptism is explicitly stated in the bible as saving us. Baptism is specifically stated as leading us to eternal life. Baptism is directly compared to/the equivalent of the OT circumcision by Paul. May the scales be removed from your eyes.

God Bless

Hey Broski, honor your own request. All you gave me was your opinion:

broski234:

With all due respect Howie, but this makes no sense whatsoever. “As with circumcision, so too with baptism, neither saves, but grace alone, through faith alone”. No sense. Correct me if I am wrong in what you are trying to say, but you are saying we are saved by God’s grace alone, through our faith alone? That’s ridiculous! If it’s faith alone, its not grace alone. Do you see the logical inconsistency here? Scripture is very clear that baptism does indeed save us and that if we are not born of water and the spirit, we will not have eternal life. Circumcision was the sign of the old covenant. To be in covenant with God, you had to be circumcised. So indeed circumcision saved people in the old covenant. IT WAS PART OF THE SALVATION PROCESS!!!

 

[paul_c]

Upon hearing the gospel, and repenting and believing, the believer is sealed by the Spirit, and all of his sins, past, present and future, are forgiven along with any guilt or debt to the law (Eph 1:13-14; Rom 7:1-6; Col 2:13-14).

To the point, all of those who are Christ’s repent before death; all of those who are Christ’s strive for holiness throughout their lives; all of those who are Christ’s will sin; all of those who are Christ’s will have sorrow concerning their sin, and all of those who are Christ’s will go to heaven because of the forgiveness of their sins.

Lets review the passages you quote:
Eph 1: 13-14 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory

Note, this doesn’t talk about covering future sins, In fact, it says it is the first installment of our inheritance. This is the exact opposite of what you were claiming. It is not Once save only saved, it is the first installment toward redemption. You have to do God’s will to get to heaven.

Romans 7: 1-6 Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man. In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter.

Note how we are saved to do bear fruit for God and to serve. Both are doing the will of God. This passage says nothing about being forgiven for future sins. It says, instead that we are made into a new life to do the will of God.

Now on to col 2: 12-14: You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; obliterating the bond against us, with its legal claims, which was opposed to us, he also removed it from our midst, nailing it to the cross

Note, this says nothing about forgiveness for future sins either. It, in fact, says that you need to be baptized to be raised with Jesus through Faith.

So I guess I couldn’t have picked three passages myself that would tell the Story of salvation. You need to be baptized to gain the first installment of redemption after which you need to serve God and bear good fruit to gain the full redemption of Christ. In fact, these passages contradict your OSAS theology. Can you see this now?

 

[Howie01]

Pay attention really close to this next verse…

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah’s ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase “not as a removal of dirt from the body” is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, “I have a baptism to be baptized with” referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says “are you able…to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?,” referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

This and your other post = Salza @ scripturecatholic.com? Right?

 

[broski234]

Hey Broski, honor your own request. All you gave me was your opinion:

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

 

[broski234]

This and your other post = Salza @ scripturecatholic.com? Right?

Correct! Now whats your interpretation of those verses Howie