Something Must Be Done About Those High Paid Teachers

[ChrisR246]

the child’s ability to be a productive wage earning tax paying citizen

Is this really what you want for the children? Nothing but a cog in the State machine? Certainly it would not take 12-14 years of public education to get them to that.

I want a lot more, at least for my children, not least of which, as a Catholic parent, I want them to get to Heaven.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Is this really what you want for the children? Nothing but a cog in the State machine? Certainly it would not take 12-14 years of public education to get them to that.

I want a lot more, at least for my children, not least of which, as a Catholic parent, I want them to get to Heaven.

What we want as Catholic parents and grandparents is not the responsibility of the public school system. It is the responsibility of the Catholic parents. The church will tell you that we are responsible for the education of our children not the state. That is why although we pay taxes our family home school and then send the children to University or trade-school if that is what they desire.

 

[ChrisR246]

What we want as Catholic parents and grandparents is not the responsibility of the public school system. It is the responsibility of the Catholic parents. The church will tell you that we are responsible for the education of our children not the state.

I agree with all this.I believe many non Catholic Christians come to the same conclusion. So, how did mandatory public education ever come to be and why aren’t more Christians opposed to it?

 

[KathleenElsie]

I agree with all this.I believe many non Catholic Christians come to the same conclusion. So, how did mandatory public education ever come to be and why aren’t more Christians opposed to it?

The government made the decision that it was in the best interest of the government as a whole to have a minimally educated population. It was to provide basic skills needed by the working population as in reading, writing and sums. A basic education was to span around 8 years. This decision was made around the time that many Catholic immigrants were entering the USA and the private Protestant Church Schools did not welcome these children with open arms.

History then states that the Catholic Parishes stepped forward to educate their own children as they, families and parish, became more established. The parish school provided stability for the parish and the families. They were established at the 1st to 8th grade on the same lines as the public schools. Sr high schools were considered higher education and a privilege for those that attended.

Now the parishes are closing those schools and the state/federal government is responsible for almost all the education provided in the USA unless you are able to afford to send your child/ern to a private school.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

You, I think, are misunderstanding me. My point really had nothing to do with pecking order, but rather, that teachers aren’t paid their worth. We pay certain professions SO MUCH money (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc). Yet, we don’t offer compensation for teachers anywhere near that! Even teachers who have as much (or more) schooling than doctors and lawyers. It was pointed out to me that these professions are extremely valuable. I was simply stating that, yes, they are…but there wouldn’t be educated doctors, lawyers, etc., were it not for the education they received.

We live in a capitalistic society. Wages have nothing to do with your value to society. People are paid what they can get people to pay them. Period !!! The New York Yankees just signed a pitcher who is going to get $9,000 per PITCH !!! It’s obviously worth it to someone, otherwise they would not pay it. When it comes to incomes forget about value to society…it’s irrelevant.

 

[ChrisR246]

The government made the decision that it was in the best interest of the government as a whole to have a minimally educated population. It was to provide basic skills needed by the working population as in reading, writing and sums. A basic education was to span around 8 years.

So far, so good.

KathleenElsie:

This decision was made around the time that many Catholic immigrants were entering the USA and the private Protestant Church Schools did not welcome these children with open arms.

This does not agree with my understanding of history. The Protestants controlled the local schools and wanted to use them to not only impart a basic, common education, but to also assimilate those newly arriving Catholics, including making them Protestants.

Catholics objected to this. They wanted to start their own schools to keep the kids Catholic. This actually had to go to the Supreme Court. The Catholics then wanted to get their share of the tax money that was being used for education for the Catholic Schools. As a result, most states passed Blain Ammendments expressly forbidding funds going to religious schools. Though the public schools of the time included prayer and bible study, they were more or less lowest common denominator Protestant and so continued to receive the tax money they had a monopoly on.

Now the Protestants have lost control of the schools to the Atheists and Secular Humanists, though I don’t think most have realized it, yet.

Now the parishes are closing those schools and the state/federal government is responsible for almost all the education provided in the USA unless you are able to afford to send your child/ern to a private school.

The parish schools are being closed because most families either can’t or won’t pay both the taxes that support the “free” public schools and the tuition for the parochial schools. The enrollment in many is too low to keep them viable.

 

[KathleenElsie]

So far, so good.

This does not agree with my understanding of history. The Protestants controlled the local schools and wanted to use them to not only impart a basic, common education, but to also assimilate those newly arriving Catholics, including making them Protestants. Yes and this was not being Catholic friendly or welcoming. For those that wanted to maintain their Cathocic identity, culture and religion the free education was denied. That is when the Catholic schools were first established.

Catholics objected to this. They wanted to start their own schools to keep the kids Catholic. This actually had to go to the Supreme Court. As well they should have.

The Catholics then wanted to get their share of the tax money that was being used for education for the Catholic Schools. As a result, most states passed Blain Ammendments expressly forbidding funds going to religious schools. This was the first step toward giving up our rights to teach our own children. But this was very much later in the time frame and not at the point of establishing “public” education.

Though the public schools of the time included prayer and bible study, they were more or less lowest common denominator Protestant and so continued to receive the tax money they had a monopoly on. But their churches were not the beneficiaries of the tax money and the schools were already so-called “public” if not governmental.

Now the Protestants have lost control of the schools to the Atheists and Secular Humanists, though I don’t think most have realized it, yet. The hard core has. But, mainstream Protistants still refuse to see the full truth of the system.

The parish schools are being closed because most families either can’t or won’t pay both the taxes that support the “free” public schools and the tuition for the parochial schools. The enrollment in many is too low to keep them viable. Our parish school closed after the tuition went over $4000 per child and the non-catholics were eligable for the same reduction in fees as those of us that supported the parish and school with our time and money. If we wanted to bus the children into the next county we could have sent all six for the price of two.

 

[mommyof4]

Now the Protestants have lost control of the schools to the Atheists and Secular Humanists, though I don’t think most have realized it, yet.

Not in Northwest Iowa. I defy anyone to go into any of the small town PUBLIC schools in NW Iowa and tell me that they are run by atheists and secular humanists.

 

[ChrisR246]

Not in Northwest Iowa. I defy anyone to go into any of the small town PUBLIC schools in NW Iowa and tell me that they are run by atheists and secular humanists.

Living in Omaha, I have not heard that NW Iowa is dramatically different from other public systems. But I’ll willingly concede that it is. Which is more likely - that the NW Iowa will eventually succumb to the same issues that major metropolitan school districts have, that they will be allowed to continue as is or they will be the launching spot for a radical change of the other public systems. I have grave doubts about the likelihood of either of the last two.

KathleenElsie:

But this was very much later in the time frame and not at the point of establishing “public” education.

But you had already said the Catholics were denied the free education.

Now the Protestants have lost control of the schools to the Atheists and Secular Humanists, though I don’t think most have realized it, yet.

The hard core has

Unfortunately, at least in Nebraska, they are not yet willing to ally themselves with the Catholics in the common cause of protecting our parochial schools.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Living in Omaha, I have not heard that NW Iowa is dramatically different from other public systems. But I’ll willingly concede that it is. Which is more likely - that the NW Iowa will eventually succumb to the same issues that major metropolitan school districts have, that they will be allowed to continue as is or they will be the launching spot for a radical change of the other public systems. I have grave doubts about the likelihood of either of the last two.

But you had already said the Catholics were denied the free education. As a Catholic they were denied a free education. They were forced to pay tuition to keep their idenity or forced to change. both are a cost. If you pay with your soul or your money it still costs. Thus denial of “free” education.

Unfortunately, at least in Nebraska, they are not yet willing to ally themselves with the Catholics in the common cause of protecting our parochial schools.

Being not welcomed with open arms was not seen as being denied an education.

 

[ChrisR246]

Being not welcomed with open arms was not seen as being denied an education.

The attitude doesn’t seem to have changed much - “Here’s the education we want to impose on your kids. Don’t care if you like it or not. Make sure they get here or we’ll send cops to your house. More importantly, pay the taxes for it or even more cops will be at your house.”

 

[KathleenElsie]

The attitude doesn’t seem to have changed much - “Here’s the education we want to impose on your kids. Don’t care if you like it or not. Make sure they get here or we’ll send cops to your house. More importantly, pay the taxes for it or even more cops will be at your house.”

Since we home school we have to jump through many hoops. Thank God for the Catholic Home School League and used books.

 

[LeahInancsi]

That would be in the entire part you cut from my post - eliminate compulsory education.

I didn’t cut that part from your post because I didn’t read your post. This has been a big pet peeve of mine for a long time. I feel the same way about parents who stand around with their mouths hanging open when their children leave the Catholic church because they were not properly catechised at home.

I don’t think I understand what you mean by “compulsory” education. Can you explain in a couple of sentences?

 

[dranzal]

Homeschool!!! While a nice job, family, neighborhood, etc, are desirable outcomes for my children, they are not the ultimate good outcome. They might have more experiences (good and bad) at school, but my vocation is to guide them on the road to sainthood. That involves proper education including far more thorough catechesis than can be achieved in CCD alone and sheltering from negative influences. No amount of “good teaching” can match a homeschooling parent’s unique ability to accomplish both.

Now to respond to some of the concerns previously posted and to agree with at least two of the posters…

**The United States was founded, formed and grew to international prominence and prestige without compulsory schooling **and with virtually no government involvement in schooling. Before the advent of government-controlled schools, literacy was high (91-97% in the North, 81% in the South), private and community schools proliferated, and people cared about education and acted on their desire to learn and have their children learn.

"Early America was arguably the freest civil society that has ever existed. This freedom extended to education, which meant that parents were responsible for, and had complete control of, their children’s schooling. There were no accrediting agencies, no regulatory boards, and no teacher certification requirements. Parents could choose whatever kind of school or education they wanted for their children, and no one was forced to pay for education they did not use or approve of."

schoolandstate.org/home.htm

 

[annweiss]

Well, “Mommy of Four” I don’t know where you live, but in my state of Texas, I can tell you teachers are NOT overpaid. Yes, I am a retired educator, but let me advise you of a few facts you do not seem to understand: First, teachers are paid for 185 days of work; they are not paid for days in which they do not work, including summers, holidays. Yes, most school districts pay teachers over a 12-month period but that is to help them over the months in which they would not receive a salary…remember…paid for the days they work, not for days they do not work. Second, every teacher I know/knew spends a great deal of their own money for supplies in their classroom simply because there is no money available for things like paper, pencils, math manipulatives. Otherwise the children would not have these. My former husband used to complain that I spent so much of my own money on my classroom…an average of about $800-$1000 per year. How many workers have to buy their own equipment to do the job? Third, all teachers must have at least a bachelors degree, most now require a master’s degree. So, compare teacher’s’ salaries with other college educated workers for a fair comparison…not quite so good. When I left the classroom in 1990, the year I was Texas Elementary Teacher of the Year, I had a Doctorate, 20 years of experience, and my annual salary was $37,800…in a fairly good-paying school district. Moreover, I was at the top of the salary scale; i.e. I would never make any more money. How many workers top out of their earning capacity with 15-20 years left to work? Fourth, every teacher I know has spent a huge amount of money over the years for his/her students on lunches, supplies, clothing, even soap, etc. How many workers buy clothing for the people who work with them? Finally, teaching has become a miserable experience for many teachers…50% of all teachers leave the PROFESSION within the first 3 years of teaching. Having to deal with apathetic, unmotivated students, combative, hostile parents, no money for basics supplies, unrealistic demands from overworked administrators, endless stacks of paperwork, and high-stakes testing of students that is usually a one or two-day test that determines the quality of teaching/learning for the entire year…and some teachers actually experiencing physical injuries…well, it is no wonder that we no longer attract the best and brightest to work with our precious children. So, may I humbly suggest that you get the facts straight before you criticize and, better yet, spend an entire day in the public schools, then decide if you would do the job for the compensation offered. There is a reason that we have so few men in education…they can’t afford to teach if they have a family. So, if you can’t compliment the work of these dedicated women and men, at least stop complaining and being part of the problem. It is more than discouraging to work under these conditions then listen to nonsense from uninformed people like you. Platitudes and criticism are easy. Where is your solution?

Dr. Ann Weiss

 

[Stolen_Rutters]

Haha, the OP had me going for a second. Most public school teachers are paid at least a living wage. The good ones get into the higher paid school districts. In Michigan, their average wage depends entirely on how much property tax the community generates. You can’t pay them with money you don’t have…

The “McMansion” townships filled with $500,000 homes have higher paid teachers for sure… it pushes up the quality of teachers, with the competition for these valuable positions. The City of Detroit has the opposite problem, with the average house going for $50,000.

Teaching is for some people. It’s not for everyone. If I weren’t already an engineer, I could see teaching as one of my second choices (except that there are way more teachers than teaching positions in Michigan).

 

[mommyof4]

Well, “Mommy of Four” I don’t know where you live, but in my state of Texas, I can tell you teachers are NOT overpaid. Yes, I am a retired educator, but let me advise you of a few facts you do not seem to understand: First, teachers are paid for 185 days of work; they are not paid for days in which they do not work, including summers, holidays. Yes, most school districts pay teachers over a 12-month period but that is to help them over the months in which they would not receive a salary…remember…paid for the days they work, not for days they do not work. Second, every teacher I know/knew spends a great deal of their own money for supplies in their classroom simply because there is no money available for things like paper, pencils, math manipulatives. Otherwise the children would not have these. My former husband used to complain that I spent so much of my own money on my classroom…an average of about $800-$1000 per year. How many workers have to buy their own equipment to do the job? Third, all teachers must have at least a bachelors degree, most now require a master’s degree. So, compare teacher’s’ salaries with other college educated workers for a fair comparison…not quite so good. When I left the classroom in 1990, the year I was Texas Elementary Teacher of the Year, I had a Doctorate, 20 years of experience, and my annual salary was $37,800…in a fairly good-paying school district. Moreover, I was at the top of the salary scale; i.e. I would never make any more money. How many workers top out of their earning capacity with 15-20 years left to work? Fourth, every teacher I know has spent a huge amount of money over the years for his/her students on lunches, supplies, clothing, even soap, etc. How many workers buy clothing for the people who work with them? Finally, teaching has become a miserable experience for many teachers…50% of all teachers leave the PROFESSION within the first 3 years of teaching. Having to deal with apathetic, unmotivated students, combative, hostile parents, no money for basics supplies, unrealistic demands from overworked administrators, endless stacks of paperwork, and high-stakes testing of students that is usually a one or two-day test that determines the quality of teaching/learning for the entire year…and some teachers actually experiencing physical injuries…well, it is no wonder that we no longer attract the best and brightest to work with our precious children. So, may I humbly suggest that you get the facts straight before you criticize and, better yet, spend an entire day in the public schools, then decide if you would do the job for the compensation offered. There is a reason that we have so few men in education…they can’t afford to teach if they have a family. So, if you can’t compliment the work of these dedicated women and men, at least stop complaining and being part of the problem. It is more than discouraging to work under these conditions then listen to nonsense from uninformed people like you. Platitudes and criticism are easy. Where is your solution?

Dr. Ann Weiss

Um, you may want to re read my post more carefully. It was meant to be sarcastic. My husband and I are both teachers, and yes, I fully understand the time that goes into preparing lesson plans, presenting material, going workshops, etc.

 

[cmt]

Well, “Mommy of Four” I don’t know where you live, but in my state of Texas, Platitudes and criticism are easy. Where is your solution?

Dr. Ann Weiss

Where is the humor 101 class is held? Now there is a spot the schools should teach in school computer labs for sure.

I think you missed the point.

 

[gerch1]

It Is Sad To Know That Many Feel That Way Toward Teachers. That Attitude And The Salary We Pay Contributes To The Loss Of Some Very Important Teachers.

I, Personally, Know Several Teachers Who Left The Vocation So They Could Support Their Family… We Can’t All Marry Rich Spouses.

We Must All Realize How Important These People Can Be In Molding The Lives Of Our Children. So Instead Of Educated, Dedicated, Personable People Teaching Our Children, We Have The Lazy, Just-get-by, Alcholic People Molding Our Kid’s Minds

 

[boppaid]

The attitude doesn’t seem to have changed much - “Here’s the education we want to impose on your kids. Don’t care if you like it or not. Make sure they get here or we’ll send cops to your house. More importantly, pay the taxes for it or even more cops will be at your house.”

Actually, kids don’t have to go to school. They can be homeschooled. So, compulsurary education, yes, in a way, but the parents can have control, if they choose, in homeschooling. ALL children deserve some sort of education, though, and I am thrilled that our government forces parents to make sure they get one…even if minimally.