Spaghetti straps on little girls' First Communion dresses

[Eufrosnia]

That is exactly what I am determined to avoid doing to my daughter. There is NO NEED for her to feel shame about her body. She just needs to learn that modesty is about dressing appropriately for the occasion, keeping private/vulnerable body parts covered and protected, and RESPECTING HERSELF. We show respect for ourselves and others when we dress modestly.
I got the sarcasm, btw, which is why I responded to you. I agree that shaming little girls is a horrible, unChristian thing to do.

The shame I mentioned was in the act of dressing in a way that tempt others. A person should indeed feel the shame and there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is properly taught.

 

[Lormar]

This seems to me like you are trying to promote a certain agenda here. Unfortunately my friend, what I said is how the Catholic Church thinks. There are many today who subscribe to a position similar to yours but that is in error.

I pray that you will find your way back to the Church and see the true wisdom in its teaching!

 

[mommamaree]

The shame I mentioned was in the act of dressing in a way that tempt others. A person should indeed feel the shame and there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is properly taught.

Okay, I understand you better now. You are referring to the shame of committing an actual sin, then? A woman who dresses with the purpose of inciting lust would be guilty of an actual sin, agreed. But there are still a couple concerns I need to mention.
First, we cannot judge the heart. We can only judge actions. A woman may be wearing something that others judge to be immodest, due to their upbringing, but she may think it is acceptable due to her upbringing. She would not be subjectively guilty of sin, and we are required to charitably assume the best possible motives for the behavior of others.
Second, it seems that online correspondence with people all over the world has led to the uneasy realization that there is no universally agreed upon standards of modesty amongst Christians, except with respect to covering the torso, derrière, genitals and lower breast/chest. Different cultures in different climates have very different ideas about shoulders, knees and décolletage, as well as modesty in children’s dress. We should remember to allow for such differences without condemnation,
Third, little girls at the age of 7 or 8 could not possibly dress with the intention to incite lust. They have a child’s body, they have not gone through puberty which brings with it secondary sex characteristics. Many of them do not even know what sex is, let alone understand the concept of sexy. They are not sexually attractive to anyone with a healthy sexuality.

So none of the little girls wearing strappy dresses could possibly be guilty of sin. The parents perhaps should know better, but in some cultures, less clothing is the norm, even for good Christians. Anyway, just a few rambling thoughts…thanks for reading.

 

[thewanderer]

This is an erroneous position.

**You would be, in fact, contradicting Church teaching. **The shame is felt not toward ones body. The shame is felt in exposing ones body to others, and thus leading them to temptation and exposing what one holds private. It is a very important distinction that you must understand or you can fall in to the error of puritanism or some other heresy.

Males are also held to the same standard. It is also not some myth that males can very quickly fall in to the sin of objectifying women as sexual objects for pleasure.

So I would suggest avoiding such thinking as the one you posted because it is in error and diverts attention away from a very important teaching of the faith.

This seems to me like you are trying to promote a certain agenda here. Unfortunately my friend, what I said is how the Catholic Church thinks. There are many today who subscribe to a position similar to yours but that is in error.
**
I pray that you will find your way back to the Church and see the true wisdom in its teaching!**

Can you please provide the Church teaching that WalkingHome has contradicted? You have made a very serious claim and I hope you can back it up.

 

[Debora123]

Can you please provide the Church teaching that WalkingHome has contradicted? You have made a very serious claim and I hope you can back it up.

I don’t think Eufrosnia realizes that WH’s first post was sarcastic.

 

[thewanderer]

I don’t think Eufrosnia realizes that WH’s first post was sarcastic.

Perhaps you are right. I certainly hope so.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Can you please provide the Church teaching that WalkingHome has contradicted? You have made a very serious claim and I hope you can back it up.

She has said that the Church asking us to be ashamed of immodesty means that she is promoting a shame of the body. Shame of the body or any matter has been condemned under heresies of Catharism or some other similar related heresy. You can easily look it up.

So yes, the person had unfortunately written errors about the church. I stand by my initial charge that she/he was in error.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Okay, I understand you better now. You are referring to the shame of committing an actual sin, then? A woman who dresses with the purpose of inciting lust would be guilty of an actual sin, agreed. But there are still a couple concerns I need to mention.
First, we cannot judge the heart. We can only judge actions. A woman may be wearing something that others judge to be immodest, due to their upbringing, but she may think it is acceptable due to her upbringing. She would not be subjectively guilty of sin, and we are required to charitably assume the best possible motives for the behavior of others.
Second, it seems that online correspondence with people all over the world has led to the uneasy realization that there is no universally agreed upon standards of modesty amongst Christians, except with respect to covering the torso, derrière, genitals and lower breast/chest. Different cultures in different climates have very different ideas about shoulders, knees and décolletage, as well as modesty in children’s dress. We should remember to allow for such differences without condemnation,
Third, little girls at the age of 7 or 8 could not possibly dress with the intention to incite lust. They have a child’s body, they have not gone through puberty which brings with it secondary sex characteristics. Many of them do not even know what sex is, let alone understand the concept of sexy. They are not sexually attractive to anyone with a healthy sexuality.

So none of the little girls wearing strappy dresses could possibly be guilty of sin. The parents perhaps should know better, but in some cultures, less clothing is the norm, even for good Christians. Anyway, just a few rambling thoughts…thanks for reading.

I think there are several problems with your reply. First is that you assert there being no consensus around the world as to what is modest. To speak truthfully, there is indeed a good consensus as to what people consider modest between cultures that actually do values modesty. Only one that stands out today like a sore thumb is Western Culture where modesty has become a negative values that no one wants to talk about.

Secondly, the effects of dressing immodestly do take place regardless of the person’s intent. This is why a child has to be taught from a very young age by her parents as to why it is important to dress modestly and the values and measures surrounding modesty that culture has passed down. We had such values but we lost them because of the sexual revolution which pretty much threw out the concept of modesty.

This is why you have girls today who are confused on how to dress modestly while you have people getting tempted. So modesty is not so much on the intent either. There is an objective standard as to what it means to dress modestly i.e. it is to follow the values that have been passed down by ones culture on how to dress modestly. To dress in a way that disagrees with that standard is to indeed dress immodestly. It does not matter if the intent is there or not. The damage is done.

So what we can do as parents is inform our daughters from a very young age on cultural values. NOT cultural values from this distorted culture that devalues modesty but from a culture that embraces modesty. This is definitely hard today considering how we have lost almost all values and the norm of the day is to be “sexy” (probably a close definition of immodesty). But it is nevertheless what we must achieve.

 

[thewanderer]

She has said that the Church asking us to be ashamed of immodesty means that she is promoting a shame of the body. Shame of the body or any matter has been condemned under heresies of Catharism or some other similar related heresy. You can easily look it up.

So yes, the person had unfortunately written errors about the church. I stand by my initial charge that she/he was in error.

I believe you have misunderstood WH. I do not see her saying that having a well-formed conscience is the same as being ashamed of ones body. What I see is her condemning the idea that one should be ashamed of ones body, which, as you have so kindly pointed out for us, is a position shared by the Church. We shall, of course, have to wait for WH to come back and clarify her position, but until it has been clarified we are called by the Church to assume the best. So, until WH’s meaning is clarified we should assume that she did not, in fact, mean to claim that the Church is heretical.

 

[thewanderer]

I think there are several problems with your reply. First is that you assert there being no consensus around the world as to what is modest. To speak truthfully**, there is indeed a good consensus as to what people consider modest between cultures that actually do values modesty**. Only one that stands out today like a sore thumb is Western Culture where modesty has become a negative values that no one wants to talk about.
.

I have to ask… how do you determine which cultures actually value modesty?

The reason I ask is because, without further clarification, your post seems to be using circular reasoning. You imply that in order to find the consensus of what is modest one need only to look at a certain group of cultures. However, in order to determine exactly which cultures are included in that group, we need to already have a consensus on what clothing is modest.

If you clarify how one determines which cultures are modest without referring to a set idea of what constitutes modesty, then it would help us to see that you are not, in fact using circular reasoning. Thanks.

 

[mommamaree]

I have to ask… how do you determine which cultures actually value modesty?

The reason I ask is because, without further clarification, your post seems to be using circular reasoning. You imply that in order to find the consensus of what is modest one need only to look at a certain group of cultures. However, in order to determine exactly which cultures are included in that group, we need to already have a consensus on what clothing is modest.

If you clarify how one determines which cultures are modest without referring to a set idea of what constitutes modesty, then it would help us to see that you are not, in fact using circular reasoning. Thanks.

You asked the exact question I was going to ask! Thanks for stating it so clearly.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I have to ask… how do you determine which cultures actually value modesty?

That is simple. Any culture that is from a society that holds modesty as something a person must strive toward is a culture that values modesty. Our western culture for an example is grossly immodest because it does not value modesty as a whole. It is focused on causing sexual titillation as much as possible.

The reason I ask is because, without further clarification, your post seems to be using circular reasoning. You imply that in order to find the consensus of what is modest one need only to look at a certain group of cultures. However, in order to determine exactly which cultures are included in that group, we need to already have a consensus on what clothing is modest.

Aah, I see the misunderstanding. We know which cultures are modest because they strive to be modest as a society. Not from its dress itself. The specific details on how to be modest fall in to place as the culture develops.

This is why its also hard for an individual to just come up with a standard for modesty.

If you clarify how one determines which cultures are modest without referring to a set idea of what constitutes modesty, then it would help us to see that you are not, in fact using circular reasoning. Thanks.

I think I have answered this.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I believe you have misunderstood WH. I do not see her saying that having a well-formed conscience is the same as being ashamed of ones body. What I see is her condemning the idea that one should be ashamed of ones body, which, as you have so kindly pointed out for us, is a position shared by the Church. We shall, of course, have to wait for WH to come back and clarify her position, but until it has been clarified we are called by the Church to assume the best. So, until WH’s meaning is clarified we should assume that she did not, in fact, mean to claim that the Church is heretical.

Please show me where I posited the bolded section above. I do not appreciate dishonesty since I am very certain that I did not say one should be ashamed of ones body. However, I have repeatedly stressed, also in reply to WH, what I mean by shame with respect to this issue. But the poster still disagreed.

So if anything, it is WH that is outside of Church teaching on this matter.

 

[thewanderer]

Please show me where I posited the bolded section above. I do not appreciate dishonesty since I am very certain that I did not say one should be ashamed of ones body. However, I have repeatedly stressed, also in reply to WH, what I mean by shame with respect to this issue. But the poster still disagreed.

So if anything, it is WH that is outside of Church teaching on this matter.

It is possible that WH misunderstood what you were saying. I know that I misunderstood what you were saying, so I believe it is very likely. That is something that happens quite frequently on CAF. As I pointed out earlier, Church teaching is that we are to assume the best of others. This means that until WH clarifies her meaning you should assume she is not claiming that the Church is heretical.

 

[thewanderer]

That is simple. Any culture that is from a society that holds modesty as something a person must strive toward is a culture that values modesty. Our western culture for an example is grossly immodest because it does not value modesty as a whole. It is focused on causing sexual titillation as much as possible.

Aah, I see the misunderstanding. We know which cultures are modest because they strive to be modest as a society. Not from its dress itself. The specific details on how to be modest fall in to place as the culture develops.

This is why its also hard for an individual to just come up with a standard for modesty.

I think I have answered this.

Might I ask what marks must one look for in a society to determine whether or not a society is striving to be modest? That will help clarify your position and explain how it is not circular.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Might I ask what marks must one look for in a society to determine whether or not a society is striving to be modest? That will help clarify your position and explain how it is not circular.

It is the attitude of the society. A society which concerns itself with not tempting others, trying to cover up what it constitutes as inappropriate to be on display for all, is a society that holds to modesty.

What you are confusing as being circular is that I am referring to the actual details on how a society wants to go about being modest. That is incorrect. In other words, you are trying to judge modesty of a culture by the details. Or perhaps, you are even trying to say modesty is an individual standard because there is no way to really tell. Both positions are wrong.

 

[Eufrosnia]

It is possible that WH misunderstood what you were saying. I know that I misunderstood what you were saying, so I believe it is very likely. That is something that happens quite frequently on CAF. As I pointed out earlier, Church teaching is that we are to assume the best of others. This means that until WH clarifies her meaning you should assume she is not claiming that the Church is heretical.

So you want to assume the best about her but you were pretty quick to judge me as making a baseless charge before. You did not even bother to read what I posted. Do you think that fair? Why not treat me with the same respect and dignity that you highly speak of regarding treating of WH?

 

[thewanderer]

It is the attitude of the society. A society which concerns itself with not tempting others, trying to cover up what it constitutes as inappropriate to be on display for all, is a society that holds to modesty.

What you are confusing as being circular is that I am referring to the actual details on how a society wants to go about being modest. That is incorrect. In other words, you are trying to judge modesty of a culture by the details. Or perhaps, you are even trying to say modesty is an individual standard because there is no way to really tell. Both positions are wrong.

No, not at all actually. I wanted clarity so that I could better understand what reasoning you were proposing for the discernement of modest clothing. So, if I told you that I knew of a little bubble society in the US who revolted against the sexual revolution and held the virtue of modesty and chastity as extremely important would you agree that their opinions on what clothing is modest ad what immodest must, according to your above method of determining modest dress, be correct?

 

[Eufrosnia]

No, not at all actually. I wanted clarity so that I could better understand what reasoning you were proposing for the discernement of modest clothing. So, if I told you that I knew of a little bubble society in the US who revolted against the sexual revolution and held the virtue of modesty and chastity as extremely important would you agree that their opinions on what clothing is modest ad what immodest must, according to your above method of determining modest dress, be correct?

Of course. The relative effectiveness of its values will of course be dependent on how old this bubble is or how it organically evolved from the culture prior to the sexual revolution.

To my best knowledge, most sub cultures today in Western society tend to be bubbles created after the sexual revolution. So they are usually those that decided to hold modesty once again but started fresh without any organic development from the previous set of values. Hence most of these bubble societies are still somewhat primitive but nevertheless much better than what is outside.

The other issue with the bubbles is that it is difficult to have bubbles within a society itself. Usually the society around it influences it implicitly as it tries to keep accommodating more members. So compromises are made and certain inferior or even detrimental ideas sneak in over time. Even a bubble cannot survive if it has no members so it has to recruit as well as retain. The organic evolution of values in such a bubble are therefore usually slower as well.

But in any case, they can be a good asset for those who have nothing else to turn to. For those who do belong to a culture that has developed over centuries or hold on to the values held before the sexual revolution might certain find some of the modesty values in these bubble societies to be inferior. But with time, the bubbles can perhaps reach the same level but my personal opinion is that the bubbles will gradually succumb to the surrounding society itself (unless the surrounding society joins in) as time goes on.

So in short, bubble societies are better than nothing. But they cannot replace a culture that has born and evolved in a full society that tries to embrace modesty.

 

[thewanderer]

Of course. The relative effectiveness of its values will of course be dependent on how old this bubble is or how it organically evolved from the culture prior to the sexual revolution.

To my best knowledge, most sub cultures today in Western society tend to be bubbles created after the sexual revolution. So they are usually those that decided to hold modesty once again but started fresh without any organic development from the previous set of values. Hence most of these bubble societies are still somewhat primitive but nevertheless much better than what is outside.

The other issue with the bubbles is that it is difficult to have bubbles within a society itself. Usually the society around it influences it implicitly as it tries to keep accommodating more members. So compromises are made and certain inferior or even detrimental ideas sneak in over time. Even a bubble cannot survive if it has no members so it has to recruit as well as retain. The organic evolution of values in such a bubble are therefore usually slower as well.

But in any case, they can be a good asset for those who have nothing else to turn to. For those who do belong to a culture that has developed over centuries or hold on to the values held before the sexual revolution might certain find some of the modesty values in these bubble societies to be inferior. But with time, the bubbles can perhaps reach the same level but my personal opinion is that the bubbles will gradually succumb to the surrounding society itself (unless the surrounding society joins in) as time goes on.

So in short, bubble societies are better than nothing. But they cannot replace a culture that has born and evolved in a full society that tries to embrace modesty.

The bubble society I am talking about was founded by people whose abhorence of sexual immorality strings back to before the sexual revolution within the US. Some of the founders are still present to this day, others have been present until only recently when they passed away. There presence and morals date to before the sexual revolution and they set up a community, which, by its nature, is extremely reluctant to allow change of any kind. Would you, then, accept this society as a society whose ideas of modest clothing are, in fact, correct?