Speaking in Tongues

[byzgirl]

This is not true. Catholicism is charismatic. The charisms of the Spirit are just as much a part of the Apostolic faith as the Marian doctrines. It is not a “brand” of Catholicism. Catholics have many various devotionals and expressions of faith. The Charismatic gifts are Catholic and appropriate expressions of that faith. The charismatic gifts have been part of Catholicism since Pentecost, the present day “movement” notwithstanding.

**Right. It wasn’t my comparison…another person on the forum made the claim that the defense of Marian DOCTRINES was the same thing as the defense of charisms (I guess, that they exist). I do not doubt that charisms exist and that the Holy Spirit does not bestow them. I understand that all Christians are, by God’s grace, charismatic. I’m not debating that. The difference, of which I responded with, is that all Catholics must believe and defend, if necessary, the Church’s doctrines. Marian doctrines are distinctly Catholic (the Orthodox Church is the only one that comes close to us in the honor of Mary–, and even so, I don’t think that they maintain all of the same doctrines that the Catholic Church has made part of the deposit of faith, regarding the Mother of God).

My comment was that I debate whether or not the Holy Spirit dispenses one particular charism, so widely, and upon demand (“okay, I am now praying and wish to speak in tongues…Holy Spirit, here’s your cue”)**

You wrote: I will not deny that some of the abuses of the pentecostal influence have detracted from the sacramental life.

And I’m very sorry to hear that abuses exist anywhere in the Church…but that they have detracted from the Church, is upsetting (because of it’s leaning toward the Protestant influence more than it should.
Catholic first.

You wrote: However, that does not equate to the gifts of the Spirit being invalid, any more than the abuses if the Liturgy in the name of the “spirit of Vatican II” invalidate the liturgy, or the Council.
Authenticity is not judged by abuse, but by the correct teaching.

Oh, I agree. Again, it’s just my skepticism on the widespread and spur of the moment access to which it is claimed to occur (on demand, if you will).

You asked, Do you think that some beliefs of the Church deserve less defense?

No, but there are differences between dogma (beliefs that are undefined by the Church, but adhered to), doctrines (those beliefs that, sometimes by necessity, have been defined by the Church), its practices (celibacy, for one), and customs.

Charisms are gifts of the Holy Spirit. We do, indeed, believe in their existence. How, exactly, they manifest in believers, is the debate here.

You commented: I** think this is an excellent question! It is my fervent hope and prayer that you, and all the rest of the skeptics that post here on CAF will openly explore this grossly neglected aspect of Catholicism and recover the roots from whence it came, so that it can be reclaimed by the modern abuses and again be restored to right functioning in the Church to which it was given in the first place.**

I will also pray that abuses do not run rampant in the Church, and that Satan doesn’t work, from within, to destroy Her. That goes for the 22 Eastern Catholic churches, within the one Catholic Church, as well. I don’t think that abuse is confined to Charismatic Catholicism, by any stretch.

My worst fear is that Pentecostal Protestantism’s influence will seep into it, and undermine the beliefs of Catholics.

The understanding of Baptism, and the Sacramental nature of the Church is under seige…and Pentecostals do NOT believe the same thing we do about how the Holy Spirit works (and deny that, it is through water, that He initially ‘saves us’).

Please don’t think that I’m trying to demean my fellow Catholics. I think we should all keep ourselves in check and make sure that we are always in line with the Magesterium of the Church–following Peter’s successor–through it all.

 

[Philthy]

Bruised Reed;4683737:

So what else makes Charismatic (capital C) Catholics, charismatic, without tongue speaking? The other gifts, as noted, are shared with all believers.

I have been through several seminars associated with the Charismatic renewal and currently meet monthly with them. I think the single differentiating feature of the Charismatic movement is to pursue a greater awareness of the Holy Spirit in their lives as well as the charisms of the Holy Spirit . Tongues is but one as you noted, resting in the spirit, discernment, healing, etc. are others. This differentiation in no way is meant to exclude anyone nor is it to separate themselves from the body of Christ in any way. It is similar to a group who meets regularly to recite the Rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet. It is an aspect of Catholicism that is open to all but which a particular group has chosen to emphasize at this point of time in their lives. Anyone who is seeking to separate themselves on the basis of their participation in the Charismatic movement is most certainly not being led by the Holy Spirit. I dont think of my participation in the Charismatic movement as somehow excluding me from participating in any other activities within the Church including the Rosary, Divine Mercy, Familia, etc. It is a complimentary activity that serves to build up the entire body and to add something to every other aspect of being Catholic. Again, if its not doing that its not a leading by the Holy Spirit at all.
For what its worth, I never did receive the gift of tongues or healing or prophecy, but I did experience resting in the Spirit in a powerful way. I also love to worship with the group even though relatively few folks have the gift of tongues. It is simply another way to open my heart and prayers to God and another avenue for some to step out of the box that they have locked themselves into in their faith.

 

[byzgirl]

byzgirl;4684198:

I have been through several seminars associated with the Charismatic renewal and currently meet monthly with them. I think the single differentiating feature of the Charismatic movement is to pursue a greater awareness of the Holy Spirit in their lives as well as the charisms of the Holy Spirit . Tongues is but one as you noted, resting in the spirit, discernment, healing, etc. are others. This differentiation in no way is meant to exclude anyone nor is it to separate themselves from the body of Christ in any way. It is similar to a group who meets regularly to recite the Rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet. It is an aspect of Catholicism that is open to all but which a particular group has chosen to emphasize at this point of time in their lives. Anyone who is seeking to separate themselves on the basis of their participation in the Charismatic movement is most certainly not being led by the Holy Spirit. I dont think of my participation in the Charismatic movement as somehow excluding me from participating in any other activities within the Church including the Rosary, Divine Mercy, Familia, etc. It is a complimentary activity that serves to build up the entire body and to add something to every other aspect of being Catholic. Again, if its not doing that its not a leading by the Holy Spirit at all.
For what its worth, I never did receive the gift of tongues or healing or prophecy, but I did experience resting in the Spirit in a powerful way. I also love to worship with the group even though relatively few folks have the gift of tongues. It is simply another way to open my heart and prayers to God and another avenue for some to step out of the box that they have locked themselves into in their faith.

Now that’s what I’ve been waiting to hear. A very good answer to my question! That’s the sense of ‘Charismatic’ (capital), within Catholicism, that I was hoping for. Again, I think it wise to keep vigilent, against those that commit abuses or wander too closely to Pentecostal Protestantism (because of the similiarities regarding charisms of the Holy Spirit–and, in particular–the attraction of many to ‘speaking in tongues’…and I think that some place too much emphasis on the supernatural charisms; rather than the natural ones.

The Holy Spirit definitely dwells in the Church and works within the Body (as a whole, and through its individual members). I’ve personally witnessed the workings of the Holy Spirit, in others, and in my own life. In that sense, I am very far from a ‘skeptic’.

The Holy Spirit works and guides those of us who listen…sometimes He speaks in thunder, and sometimes in a whisper. It’s truly miraculous (even His Presence in the simplest and most humble of charisms).

I am still quite unfamiliar, and would probably feel uncomfortable at a Charismatic ‘meeting’, but the post made reasonable sense and was very well expressed.

Thanks for the good answer.

 

[Philthy]

byzgirl:

Now that’s what I’ve been waiting to hear. A very good answer to my question! That’s the sense of ‘Charismatic’ (capital), within Catholicism, that I was hoping for.

I’m glad to have been helpful and encouraging.

The Holy Spirit definitely dwells in the Church and works within the Body (as a whole, and through its individual members). I’ve personally witnessed the workings of the Holy Spirit, in others, and in my own life. In that sense, I am very far from a ‘skeptic’.

Great! Don’t push yourself beyond where God is calling you - it only leads to distrust, envy, resentment and, ultimately, disappointment.

I am still quite unfamiliar, and would probably feel uncomfortable at a Charismatic ‘meeting’, but the post made reasonable sense and was very well expressed.

There’s nothing wrong with being uncomfortable - just recognize that the source of that feeling is within yourself and that the Charismatic movement is not inherently causing that feeling. I think you’d be reasonably comfortable. We sing some songs together on the altar, sit and wait for any promptings(spoken in plain English!) from the Spirit regarding our needs - sometimes people simply say what they are thinking sometimes people will read a portion of Scripture that they feel moved to read. We offer prayers for the Church and for specific needs within the group. We sing another song or two, close in prayer and call it a night. Some people who have specific needs and wish to have them prayed for are prayed for by members of the group in a private, small group setting. I dont think you’d find anything that uncomfortable - especially if you knew a few of the folks involved in the group and how basically traditional they are as Catholics.

Thanks for the good answer.

 

[byzgirl]

I’m glad to have been helpful and encouraging.

Great! Don’t push yourself beyond where God is calling you - it only leads to distrust, envy, resentment and, ultimately, disappointment.

There’s nothing wrong with being uncomfortable - just recognize that the source of that feeling is within yourself and that the Charismatic movement is not inherently causing that feeling. I think you’d be reasonably comfortable. We sing some songs together on the altar, sit and wait for any promptings(spoken in plain English!) from the Spirit regarding our needs - sometimes people simply say what they are thinking sometimes people will read a portion of Scripture that they feel moved to read. We offer prayers for the Church and for specific needs within the group. We sing another song or two, close in prayer and call it a night. Some people who have specific needs and wish to have them prayed for are prayed for by members of the group in a private, small group setting. I dont think you’d find anything that uncomfortable - especially if you knew a few of the folks involved in the group and how basically traditional they are as Catholics.

I understand. I don’t think it’s my ‘calling’ to be Charismatic with a captial C. But I’m not thumbing my nose at it. You are correct to say that my fears are not, inherently, the Charismatic movement. It’s, rather, the fear of ‘heresy’ and ‘abuse’. The reason I fear it, more so, in regard to the Charismatic movement, is rooted in the fact that it seems to have been so strongly influenced, even in terminology, from the Protestant Pentecostal movement.

That bothers me.

What is ‘resting in the spirit’? I understand that a popular phrase (term) doesn’t equate with it’s lack of antiquity or orthodoxy…but, is there documentation to support that the Catholic Church has always had this particular manifestation of the Holy Spirit in its members, and as a whole)?

Oh, by the way, please avoid giving scripture verses, by themselves, as documentation…because Pentecostals could do the same, and yet claim different beliefs from that of Catholicism (not just different, but heretical). I want to know if there is an actual history recorded, other than found in Scripture (by the Church Fathers, for example)…throughout the centuries. How old is the ‘Charismatic’ movement of the Catholic Church?

Again, the phrase “Baptism of the Spirit”, tends to make me nervous. Is it a Charismatic Catholic phrase/modern term? The reason I have difficulties with it (and I do), is not regarding the belief or disbelief of the Holy Spirit’s actions, but the belief that, for Protestants, it means another(2nd) baptism (that water baptism is a ritual only and does not have anything to do with receiving the Holy Spirit). This is not Catholic belief. I don’t even like the phrase, because it confuses an otherwise very simple belief (that Christ desires us to be Baptized, in the Holy Spirit, through the water). That physical and spiritual means are used, by God, to convey grace.

I also have this question:

Is a priest present at these prayer ‘gatherings’ (what do you call them?). Does he ask the Holy Spirit to become present within the members, or do the members initiate the gift, on their own behalf? Doesn’t this step on the priesthood and its importance in acting on behalf of Jesus (as the presider and the one who consecrates, heals, forgives, etc., in the place of Jesus)?

Note: Does this lead to the Protestant understanding of denying the magesterial priesthood established by Christ, in favor (and overstepping) of the “priesthood of all believers”?

Do ‘Charismatic Catholics’ speak tongues, (for example) at home?

Is there documented cases of authentic healing, by regular laypersons, during these meetings?

Can you give more description?

 

[juliamajor]

byzgirl:
I will also pray that abuses do not run rampant in the Church, and that Satan doesn’t work, from within, to destroy Her. That goes for the 22 Eastern Catholic churches, within the one Catholic Church, as well. I don’t think that abuse is confined to Charismatic Catholicism, by any stretch.

My worst fear is that Pentecostal Protestantism’s influence will seep into it, and undermine the beliefs of Catholics.

The understanding of Baptism, and the Sacramental nature of the Church is under seige…and Pentecostals do NOT believe the same thing we do about how the Holy Spirit works (and deny that, it is through water, that He initially ‘saves us’).

Please don’t think that I’m trying to demean my fellow Catholics. I think we should all keep ourselves in check and make sure that we are always in line with the Magesterium of the Church–following Peter’s successor–through it all.

I find it pretty odd that schismatics on the right don’t get as much grief as Charismatics.We are not schismatics and have never been called so.-So what is the Realproblem-perception?Because it doesn’t fit"normal’ Catholic behavior? Neither did Francis of Assisis’ behavior conform to the norm.But he helped rebuild the church even though he wasn’t a ordained priest.We are all capable and have the capacity to lift up the church with gifts given us.We are
Royal priesthood, a Holy Nation- a people set apart."

 

[byzgirl]

I find it pretty odd that schismatics on the right don’t get as much grief as Charismatics.We are not schismatics and have never been called so.-So what is the Realproblem-perception?Because it doesn’t fit"normal’ Catholic behavior? Neither did Francis of Assisis’ behavior conform to the norm.But he helped rebuild the church even though he wasn’t a ordained priest.We are all capable and have the capacity to lift up the church with gifts given us.We are
Royal priesthood, a Holy Nation- a people set apart."

No, it’s not because it ‘doesn’t fit normal behavior’.

My questioning was regarding:

1. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In Pentecostal circles, this baptism --(sometimes considered essential, and other times, non-essential for salvation)–replaces the Catholic baptism with water. How do Charismatic Catholics view this Baptism of the Holy Spirit? I’m assuming that they do NOT feel that it is necessary for salvation, but that water/spirit baptism is.
2. Resting in the Spirit. I asked what it was, and whether or not it was a Pentecostal term. What’s it’s history…bibical and otherwise?
3. I asked if a priest presides over charismatic events and if he is the one who initiates the receipt of the Spirit. If not, does this tend toward the Protestant belief of ‘the priesthood of all believers’ and take away from the Catholic understanding of the priest’s place, as Christ, in healing, forgiving, etc. Stating that “We are
   Royal priesthood, a Holy Nation- a people set apart”, isn’t contradictory to Catholicism, but, among Protestants, it’s a way to deny the importance of the ministerial priesthood. Again, where does the priest fit into this?

These are questions I’m seeking to have answered. I’m trying to get the big picture.

 

[guanophore]

It’s, rather, the fear of ‘heresy’ and ‘abuse’. The reason I fear it, more so, in regard to the Charismatic movement, is rooted in the fact that it seems to have been so strongly influenced, even in terminology, from the Protestant Pentecostal movement

I think this has been the main obstacle to the Spirit filled experience for Catholics. But, even before the Pentecostal incursion, I think that the clergy have been afraid to nurture the gifts out of fear of losing control. This is also not an area where they get any training in seminary. .

What is ‘resting in the spirit’? I understand that a popular phrase (term) doesn’t equate with it’s lack of antiquity or orthodoxy…but, is there documentation to support that the Catholic Church has always had this particular manifestation of the Holy Spirit in its members, and as a whole)?

Here is a good link to an article on this.

Oh, by the way, please avoid giving scripture verses, by themselves, as documentation…because Pentecostals could do the same, and yet claim different beliefs from that of Catholicism (not just different, but heretical).

I don’t understand why you would allow people using verses wrongly to prevent us from using them properly.

I recently heard Fr. Corapi describing resting in the spirit happening to him in one of his talks that aired recently. It was a very powerful experience for him.

I want to know if there is an actual history recorded, other than found in Scripture (by the Church Fathers, for example)…throughout the centuries. How old is the ‘Charismatic’ movement of the Catholic Church?

You are right that the modern resurgence was an influence from the Pentecostal movement, but the gifts have never left the Church. They are not more common because these workings of the Spirit are quenched.

Here is a little history of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal

Again, the phrase “Baptism of the Spirit”, tends to make me nervous. Is it a Charismatic Catholic phrase/modern term?

It comes from John the Baptist, who assured the disciples that he baptized with water, but Jesus would baptize them with the Holy Spirit.

It also hearkens back to the book of Joel, where the idea of “pouring” the spirit is described:

Joel 2:28-29
I will pour out my spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on the male and female slaves,
in those days, I will pour out my spirit.

The reason I have difficulties with it (and I do), is not regarding the belief or disbelief of the Holy Spirit’s actions, but the belief that, for Protestants, it means another(2nd) baptism (that water baptism is a ritual only and does not have anything to do with receiving the Holy Spirit). This is not Catholic belief.

Well, we should not allow other’s misuse of terms and practices rob us of our birthright.

I like to explain it this way. We are wired for HS power at baptism, but it is like we never learned how to turn on the wall switch. Everything is there, and it works, but we have not learned to access it. In the Life in the Spirit seminar people are taugh how to flip the wall switch, and what to expect when the power comes through.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t even like the phrase, because it confuses an otherwise very simple belief (that Christ desires us to be Baptized, in the Holy Spirit, through the water). That physical and spiritual means are used, by God, to convey grace.

I think the word “release” is probably better. I did not like any of the phrases you offered, either, like “calling down”. That is misleading.

I also have this question:

Is a priest present at these prayer ‘gatherings’ (what do you call them?).

They are usually called prayer meetings.

Does he ask the Holy Spirit to become present within the members, or do the members initiate the gift, on their own behalf?

Neither. Everyone who comes assumes that the HS is already present within us by virtue of our baptism.

Some priests do not attend in a leadership role, and the meeting is led by a layperson. If a priest does preside, sometimes he will do the laying on of hands or annoint with oil, pray, give a teaching. They are conducted much like the description in Corinthians, but you said you don’t want any scripture, so…

Doesn’t this step on the priesthood and its importance in acting on behalf of Jesus (as the presider and the one who consecrates, heals, forgives, etc., in the place of Jesus)?

No, it is not a liturgy.

Note: Does this lead to the Protestant understanding of denying the magesterial priesthood established by Christ, in favor (and overstepping) of the “priesthood of all believers”?

I can see that there is a danger of that, certainly. This has been the greatest reluctance to foster the charismata among the laity. This loss of control has happened.

Do ‘Charismatic Catholics’ speak tongues, (for example) at home?

There are many varieties of tongues. The fact that you posted this question again makes me realize you are not reading my posts, since I already answered this once. However, I will add that one variety of tongues was manifested at Pentecost, a form of public preaching that everyone could understand. There is another form of tongues that is paired with interpretation that is used at prayer meetings. The variety I think most charismatics use at home is the private prayer language.

Is there documented cases of authentic healing, by regular laypersons, during these meetings?

I am sure. I have not researched this, as I am satisfied with my own observations.

Can you give more description?

About healing? Healing can happen on many levels, spiritual, emotional, psychological, physical. Sometimes a healing is not immediately evident. I have served on prayer teams where I prayed with people, and some burst out crying. I have heard this called the ‘gift of tears’. Sometimes people need a good cry, and hold it back for whatever reason and later feel much better when it has been released. I think it is always a good idea to keep a box of kleenex handy.

 

[guanophore]

My questioning was regarding:

1. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In Pentecostal circles, this baptism --(sometimes considered essential, and other times, non-essential for salvation)–replaces the Catholic baptism with water. How do Charismatic Catholics view this Baptism of the Holy Spirit? I’m assuming that they do NOT feel that it is necessary for salvation, but that water/spirit baptism is.

Of course it is necessary to be baptized. Jesus said so. The difference is that Catholics understand what Jesus said when He explained that we must be born again of water and Spirit. Catholics do not separate the baptism in the Spirit from the water, as most modern Protestants do.

 2.  Resting in the Spirit.  I asked what it was, and whether or not it was a Pentecostal term.  What's it's history...bibical and otherwise?

I answered this before, but I don’t think you are reading my posts. Anyway, the Spirit is able to sweep people right off their feet. This happens in the Garden of Gesthemane, when Jesus tells the crowd “I am He”.

 3.  I asked if a priest presides over charismatic events and if he is the one who initiates the receipt of the Spirit.

I do not understand this question at all. Since everyone receives the HS at baptism, I guess you could say that the priest “initiates” that, if one the person baptizing was a priest. There is no “receipt” in the meeting that did not occur at baptism. Gifts are manifested, but that is because they were already placed in the believer when they were sealed in the Spirit.

  If not, does this tend toward the Protestant belief of 'the priesthood of all believers' and take away from the Catholic understanding of the priest's place, as Christ, in healing, forgiving, etc.  Stating that "We are

Royal priesthood, a Holy Nation- a people set apart", isn’t contradictory to Catholicism, but, among Protestants, it’s a way to deny the importance of the ministerial priesthood. Again, where does the priest fit into this?

I think where the priest fits in is often up to priests. Sometimes they don’t care to be involved, but they don’t mind the meetings. If they are well acquainted with the leadership and trust that they are good Catholics, then they are very supportive.

A large part of what has constrained the Catholic Church from being light and salt in the world is that we all sit back and expect the priest to do the work of the ministry. This is not right.

Eph 4:11-14
11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ.

The role of the priest is to equip the laypeople to do the work of the ministry. When this happens, the parish thrives.

These are questions I’m seeking to have answered. I’m trying to get the big picture.

Well, since you are apparently not reading my posts, then you may not follow the links I posted. However, for the lurkers who may be willing the National Service Committee is a great resource to get the big picture.

 

[byzgirl]

---

Of course it is necessary to be baptized. Jesus said so. The difference is that Catholics understand what Jesus said when He explained that we must be born again of water and Spirit. Catholics do not separate the baptism in the Spirit from the water, as most modern Protestants do.

I** answered this before, but I don’t think you are reading my posts. Anyway, the Spirit is able to sweep people right off their feet. This happens in the Garden of Gesthemane, when Jesus tells the crowd “I am He”. **

?

I do not understand this question at all. Since everyone receives the HS at baptism, I guess you could say that the priest “initiates” that, if one the person baptizing was a priest. There is no “receipt” in the meeting that did not occur at baptism. Gifts are manifested, but that is because they were already placed in the believer when they were sealed in the Spirit.

Okay…I mean, normally, in baptized Catholics (like myself, for instance), the Holy Spirit is present…but, how is the Spirit ‘moved or stirred up’ (whatever phraseology is used to describe manifested) during these prayer meetings? Is it spontaneous in the believer themselves? And how is it brought about? Is there a certain prayer initated, and by whom? Seems very ‘mysterious’ and a little scary. I won’t say ‘unorthodox’, but…

I think where the priest fits in is often up to priests. Sometimes they don’t care to be involved, but they don’t mind the meetings. If they are well acquainted with the leadership and trust that they are good Catholics, then they are very supportive.

What if they don’t trust the Catholics involved, do they have to ‘sit in’ like watch dogs for fear that a person may lead the entire parish (or part of it) away from the Church? Is this a cause of stress for priests? And do parishioners treat them as if ‘they are in charge’ versus the priest? Does this give too much ‘authority’ to laypersons?

A large part of what has constrained the Catholic Church from being light and salt in the world is that we all sit back and expect the priest to do the work of the ministry. This is not right.

Yes, but Christ instituted the priesthood (the magesterium)…an ecclesiastical structure (that was already in place in the OT)…to minister, heal, forgive, in the Sacraments.

Does all the involvement of laypersons detract from the Sacraments and the authority by which the priest was given to act in the place of Christ? IN other words, if laypersons can heal, pray, give consulation and encouragement in these services…does it adversely effect the relationship the parishioners have to the priest/authority/the papacy/ and the Church’s Sacraments?

Eph 4:11-14
11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ.

The role of the priest is to equip the laypeople to do the work of the ministry. When this happens, the parish thrives.

But are they overstepping boundaries? Some things are meant for a priest to do, and not laypersons. I think this sounds ripe for abuses. Individuals may be happy, but it doesnt’ matter IF abuses are happening.

**Well, since you are apparently not reading my posts, then you may not follow the links I posted. However, for the lurkers who may be willing the National Service Committee is a great resource to get the big picture.

I’ll try and read over the when I can.

 

[byzgirl]

There are many varieties of tongues. The fact that you posted this question again makes me realize you are not reading my posts, since I already answered this once. However, I will add that one variety of tongues was manifested at Pentecost, a form of public preaching that everyone could understand. There is another form of tongues that is paired with interpretation that is used at prayer meetings. The variety I think most charismatics use at home is the private prayer language.

Why would the Holy Spirit choose differences, according to location. Doesn’t that seem a bit convenient?
What is private prayer language? Is it something different than what average (not “Charismatic” with a capital C) Catholics do…pray privately?

About healing? Healing can happen on many levels, spiritual, emotional, psychological, physical. Sometimes a healing is not immediately evident. I have served on prayer teams where I prayed with people, and some burst out crying. I have heard this called the ‘gift of tears’. Sometimes people need a good cry, and hold it back for whatever reason and later feel much better when it has been released. I think it is always a good idea to keep a box of kleenex handy.

This doesn’t seem very satisfying for an explanation. I can heal, then. I do the same thing for my friends and family. So what is different as a *Charismatic *Catholic? Is there something extraordinary in this?

I’m sorry, but someone getting emotional and bursting into tears…the gift of tears? I wouldn’t necessarily give it a name. I’d call it a good ol’ cry. Crying is good, as a release, but not anything out of the ordinary.

What about the annointing of the Sick, as a Sacrament? Does that take a backseat to these group healing sessions?

 

[jlhargus]

I haven’t seen a whole lot of speaking in tongues in my life. I went to a pentacostal service a couple of time and saw it. I have never done it myself or been with someone who was doing it.

However, why is it so common in the pentacostal denominations and so uncommon everywhere else?

JL: I would say because they ask and pray for the gift, most beleive it is necessary and focus on speaking in tongues. There are many Catholics who also have the gift.

 

[guanophore]

Okay…I mean, normally, in baptized Catholics (like myself, for instance), the Holy Spirit is present…but, how is the Spirit ‘moved or stirred up’ (whatever phraseology is used to describe manifested) during these prayer meetings?

Ok, I see. I think most of it has to do with the attitude one holds when coming. If one holds the belief that the Spirit within themselves is read, willing, and able to be manifested for the common good, then one carries an attitude of expectancy.

1 Cor 12:7-11
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.

Everybody comes with something, and all of it is meant for the building up of the Body.

I also think that when we gather with others of the same mindset, this is stirring. When we enter into worship and praise, that allows the Spirit within us to be released, because we are not in the way.

1 Cor 14:26-27
What should be done then, my friends? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

If everyone comes with the expectation that “God may give me a song, or a lesson, or an insight to share” then there is an openness.

I think being in the presence of those who are centered on God also stirs the Spirit. Reading the Word of God does also. A person will often share a passage that was impactful for them, or that they feel is speaking to their heart in the moment.

We must come prepared, because if we neglect the gifts, then the embers get cool

1 Tim 4:14
14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders.

In confirmation the successor of the Apostles lays hands on us, annoints us with oil, and confirms the sealing of the Spirit within is. Sometimes it needs more fuel, or fanning to get rekindled.

2 Tim 1:5-6
6 For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;

Is it spontaneous in the believer themselves? And how is it brought about? Is there a certain prayer initated, and by whom? Seems very ‘mysterious’ and a little scary. I won’t say ‘unorthodox’, but…

Yes, spontaneous. I think this is the part that makes it so difficult for Catholics. We are used to liturgical prayers, and order! I enjoy the Liturgy of the Hours, a very orderly form of prayer. When Catholic gather, we almost always have a rubric. These meetings, though they contain structure, are largely spontaneous.

What if they don’t trust the Catholics involved, do they have to ‘sit in’ like watch dogs for fear that a person may lead the entire parish (or part of it) away from the Church?

some have! Some just kick the group out of the parish.

Is this a cause of stress for priests?

I would say for most of them, definitely.

And do parishioners treat them as if ‘they are in charge’ versus the priest? Does this give too much ‘authority’ to laypersons?

All the Catholic Charismatics I know are very respectful to the deacons, priests, and bishops. They would rather forego something that offend the pastor. But most of the priests and deacons are delighted to have our prayers and support. The charismatics are often the most active members of the parish, doing the work of ten, and very reliable. This always encourages the trust of the priest. When you read the history of the renewal you will get some personal experiences from priests. Cardinal Suenens is another good source of feedback on what it is like. The archbishop in my area loves the charismatics, because they are good Catholics (don’t get out of order).

Yes, but Christ instituted the priesthood (the magesterium)…an ecclesiastical structure (that was already in place in the OT)…to minister, heal, forgive, in the Sacraments.

The saints doing the work of the ministry does not subtract from this. All the gifts and offices are meant to compliment one another.

IN other words, if laypersons can heal, pray, give consulation and encouragement in these services…does it adversely effect the relationship the parishioners have to the priest/authority/the papacy/ and the Church’s Sacraments?

I can’t see how. it seems to me there are way more needs than any priest could possibly meet. Much of this work does not need to be sacramental. Counseling, for example, and intercessory prayer is very difficult to provide for a whole parish, and does not require Holy Orders.

But are they overstepping boundaries? Some things are meant for a priest to do, and not laypersons. I think this sounds ripe for abuses. Individuals may be happy, but it doesnt’ matter IF abuses are happening.

I am sure there is always the risk of that. This is the main reason I think it is not more encouraged.

 

[byzgirl]

Ok, I see. I think most of it has to do with the attitude one holds when coming. If one holds the belief that the Spirit within themselves is read, willing, and able to be manifested for the common good, then one carries an attitude of expectancy.

1 Cor 12:7-11
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.

Everybody comes with something, and all of it is meant for the building up of the Body.

I also think that when we gather with others of the same mindset, this is stirring. When we enter into worship and praise, that allows the Spirit within us to be released, because we are not in the way.

1 Cor 14:26-27
What should be done then, my friends? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

If everyone comes with the expectation that “God may give me a song, or a lesson, or an insight to share” then there is an openness.

I think being in the presence of those who are centered on God also stirs the Spirit. Reading the Word of God does also. A person will often share a passage that was impactful for them, or that they feel is speaking to their heart in the moment.

We must come prepared, because if we neglect the gifts, then the embers get cool

1 Tim 4:14
14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders.

In confirmation the successor of the Apostles lays hands on us, annoints us with oil, and confirms the sealing of the Spirit within is. Sometimes it needs more fuel, or fanning to get rekindled.

2 Tim 1:5-6
6 For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;

Yes, spontaneous. I think this is the part that makes it so difficult for Catholics. We are used to liturgical prayers, and order! I enjoy the Liturgy of the Hours, a very orderly form of prayer. When Catholic gather, we almost always have a rubric. These meetings, though they contain structure, are largely spontaneous.

some have! Some just kick the group out of the parish.

I would say for most of them, definitely.

All the Catholic Charismatics I know are very respectful to the deacons, priests, and bishops. They would rather forego something that offend the pastor. But most of the priests and deacons are delighted to have our prayers and support. The charismatics are often the most active members of the parish, doing the work of ten, and very reliable. This always encourages the trust of the priest. When you read the history of the renewal you will get some personal experiences from priests. Cardinal Suenens is another good source of feedback on what it is like. The archbishop in my area loves the charismatics, because they are good Catholics (don’t get out of order).

The saints doing the work of the ministry does not subtract from this. All the gifts and offices are meant to compliment one another.

I can’t see how. it seems to me there are way more needs than any priest could possibly meet. Much of this work does not need to be sacramental. Counseling, for example, and intercessory prayer is very difficult to provide for a whole parish, and does not require Holy Orders.

I am sure there is always the risk of that. This is the main reason I think it is not more encouraged.

Thank you for your very patient, reasonable answers…and the fact that you answered without defensive sarcasm. While I sometimes have to temper sarcasm, I am really asking questions in sincerity. Some of the charismatic stuff (especially the supernatural, like tongue speaking) really does seem very unusual and a bit, admittedly, frightening. Coupling that with the fact that I do not like ‘groundwork’ for abuse in any Catholic church/parish, and truly do NOT want to see Catholics leave the one true Church----I have lots of questions to get a better understanding. That helps to get a different perspective and less suspicion.

It’s not really my problem with movings of the Holy Spirit…that causes me alarm. It’s, mostly, my fear that we will lose parishioners due to abuses and heretical understandings. I wouldn’t want to see Catholics closely associate themselves with Protestant groups, like the Pentecostals (who have similar prayer meetings).

Just out of curiosity, are there numbers on that? A cencus of any sort, of how many Charismatic Catholics leave the Catholic Church to…

1. start their own Protestant denomination
2. start attending a Protestant one…perhaps, Pentecostal/Evangelical/Charismatic

I hope it’s the reverse (more people coming into the Church).

 

[byzgirl]

I just wanted to say that, with or without a response to my last post, I did gain some knowledge from this forum discussion.

I must say that my worries aren’t going to do any good, since the Holy Spirit oversees and protects the Church (and protects it from the gates of hell). Like Padre Pio once was quoted, “Pray. Don’t Worry.”

I hope that Charismatic Catholics understand that they are CATHOLICS…that they are genuinely part of the Body of Christ, in union with the Pope…and I hope that is where all the individuals will stay (and that the Charismatic church will, through its focus on charisms) be a great source of unity within the one, True Church.

And I will pray for all of us (Roman, Eastern, and Charismatic Catholics)…and that all non-Catholics will “KNOW US BY OUR LOVE”…that we will work, as one, in getting our lost, Protestant brethren back on board the Ship, where they belong.

God bless all of you! Peace in Christ!

 

[guanophore]

Why would the Holy Spirit choose differences, according to location.  Doesn't that seem a bit convenient?

I think I dont’ understand what you are saying/asking. I was pointing out that there are many varieties of tongues. One variety was used in preaching on Pentecost. I suppose the Spirit could inspire someone to stand in their back yard and preach in such a manner, but what would be the point?

What is private prayer language? Is it something different than what average (not “Charismatic” with a capital C) Catholics do…pray privately?

Praying in tongues privately or with a few other people. It is not a form of tongues that is for the purpose of communication to unbelievers (such as Pentecost) or to communicate God’s messages to others. At such times, the Spirit knows our weaknesses, and prays through us. We pray with the spirit, and not with the mind. Most Catholics, when they pray privately, pray with the mind because they have not learned how to pray without the mind. There are times when it is profitable spiritually for the mind to be unfruitful.

This doesn't seem very satisfying for an explanation.

No. I was deliberately “thin”.

I can heal, then. I do the same thing for my friends and family.

I would say that it is the Spirit of God within you that heals, but yes. All of us are called to pray for one another, so that we can be healed. Parents should make the sign of the cross on their children, bless them, and pray for their needs.

So what is different as a *Charismatic *Catholic? Is there something extraordinary in this?

Although the Spirit filled life is considered extraordinary by most, I don’t think it is supposed to be. I think if we yielded to the Spirit, then all the promises in the NT would be manifested through us.

Mark 16:14-18
15 And he said to them… And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

This is the work of the ministry, that we all (who believe) shouold be doing. The signs accompany the faithful.

I am really asking questions in sincerity.

I finally figured that out.

Some of the charismatic stuff (especially the supernatural, like tongue speaking) really does seem very unusual and a bit, admittedly, frightening. Coupling that with the fact that I do not like ‘groundwork’ for abuse in any Catholic church/parish, and truly do NOT want to see Catholics leave the one true Church----I have lots of questions to get a better understanding. That helps to get a different perspective and less suspicion.

I think that Catholic Spirituality has become largely devoid of emotional and spontaneous expression, and that is why there is such a running off to superficial faith expereinces. People want to get excited about their faith, and want to believe that the things written in scripture can be true for them. When I left the Church in high school, it was because I was approached by other teens who were zealous about their faith. The brought their bibles to school, and had prayer meetings. I never knew how to make a spontaneous prayer, I only knew memorized prayers. One of the greatest gifts of the Pentecostal movement for me, aside from instilling in me a love of scripture, was how to pray spontaneously.

It's not really my problem with movings of the Holy Spirit.....that causes me alarm.  It's, mostly, my fear that we will lose parishioners due to abuses and heretical understandings.  I wouldn't want to see Catholics closely associate themselves with Protestant groups, like the Pentecostals (who have similar prayer meetings).

Your fears are well founded, as they are doing so in droves. There are not enough people like yourself who are open to the Spirit but well grounded in their faith. I think it takes a lot of strong pastoring and spiritual direction. This is obvious when we read the Corinthian letters. Out of control!

Just out of curiosity, are there numbers on that?  A cencus of any sort, of how many Charismatic Catholics leave the Catholic Church to..

I heard some recent ones on EWTN. Apparently South America is the worst, where they are jumping ship in droves to the evangelical missions.

1. start their own Protestant denomination
2. start attending a Protestant one…perhaps, Pentecostal/Evangelical/Charismatic

I hope it’s the reverse (more people coming into the Church).

I think this is most likely to happen if there are more people like yourself available that can help keep them grounded. They need to be able to grow in the gifts of the Spirit without losing their footing.

I’m sorry, but someone getting emotional and bursting into tears…the gift of tears? I wouldn’t necessarily give it a name. I’d call it a good ol’ cry. Crying is good, as a release, but not anything out of the ordinary.

It is for some people. some have not let themselves cry for years, and the Spirit of God moves in their heart causing a release. I don’t think such emotional healing SHOULD be out of the ordinary!

 

[guanophore]

What about the annointing of the Sick, as a Sacrament?  Does that take a backseat to these group healing sessions?

It depends. We have many charismatic priests in this area that will come and do it. When a priest is not available we pray for one another. If God wills, healings will happen.

The healing that occurs in the sacrament cannot be cathected by laypersons.

 

[byzgirl]

[The healing that occurs in the sacrament cannot be cathected by laypersons.[/QUOTE]

So, respectfully, what’s the difference between the Sacramental healing (of the Annointing of the Sick) and the type that occurs during charismatic prayer meetings? Of course, the final ‘healing’ may occur, for both, but I’m asking where the difference lies (besides one being conducted by a priest and the other not).

I’m just asking, because I want to understand how that doesn’t undermine the Sacramental way to healing…when it can be bypassed for another?

I am a believer in the fact that God has given priests a power that he has given to no one else “in the order of Melkezidek”. And that the purpose of the priesthood is, mainly, the dispensing of God’s Sacraments (His way of conveying grace). And I do believe that God intended the Church to do that work (via the succession of the Apostles and the laying of hands).

It just confuses me…if that’s the chosen way (as Catholics we believe this)…that grace is conveyed (through the priest)…which is biblical…then how do these two forms of (unequal) healing requests, co-exist harmoniously?..without one stepping on the other.

Maybe I’m confusing the issue, and it’s not as if I don’t believe that love exists in and outside of the Church and its Magesterium, and that the love and faith of Christans cannot result in miraculous intervention…it’s just that I do not really understand how this doesn’t effect the Sacramental way of conveying grace.

This is an example of my cynicism toward what Charismatics do and how they do it.**

 

[byzgirl]

I heard some recent ones on EWTN. Apparently South America is the worst, where they are jumping ship in droves to the evangelical missions.

These are Charismatic Catholics, right?

What is being done to help stop this and bring them back? I haven’t a clue as to the situation in South America, and how the Church functions there, but this is very upsetting.

What a shame.