Speaking In Tongues

[guanophore]

Just a note, when I wrote earlier that usually I speak in tongues when I lead worship, I wanted to clarify that I step away from the microphone and let others continue so that I don’t disrupt the congregation. Often it is just after we sing and then comes a pastoral prayer or the instruments play softly while people pray - not loud - since most people in my church do not speak in tongues or have a prayer “language”. Most probably don’t know I do. We don’t make it an issue. On another note, someone earlier mentioned that there is no syntax or complexity to prayer languages. Who are we to know the mind of God in this. I beleive in mysteries of God and believe he knows what is in my heart as I pray.
I always find it interesting that those who not have this gift seem to have a superior or suspicious attitude to those of us who do and question our authenticity. I have the gift of administration and teaching and yet no one without those gifts ever questions my authenticity with these gifts. Why do you suppose this is?.

Fear.

 

[guanophore]

Maybe it’s because they don’t see the point in uttering prayer sounds that neither you nor anybody else can understand. Maybe they don’t see how that is a better form of prayer than praying in a human language, or than simply uniting in silence with God.

How would you answer them?

It is a misunderstanding to assume that the person praying does not understand what they are praying. They are praying with the heart, instead of the mind, and the understanding is intuitive, rather than rational. Both forms of prayer are important and valuable. Paul writes “I will pray with my spirit, and I will pray with my mind also”. Uttering the sounds helps the person praying to focus on the prayer, just as beads help some people to focus on their prayers.

 

[guanophore]

Maybe it’s because they don’t see the point in uttering prayer sounds that neither you nor anybody else can understand. Maybe they don’t see how that is a better form of prayer than praying in a human language, or than simply uniting in silence with God.

How would you answer them?

It is a misunderstanding to assume that the person praying does not understand what they are praying. They are praying with the heart, instead of the mind, and the understanding is intuitive, rather than rational. Both forms of prayer are important and valuable. Paul writes “I will pray with my spirit, and I will pray with my mind also”. Uttering the sounds helps the person praying to focus on the prayer, just as beads help some people to focus on their prayers.

OK. According to 1 Cor 14, however, it seems that the gift of tongues (in public, at least) is only a gift if it edifies others. If one cannot interpret the sounds, then they would seem to serve no purpose (again, according to 1 Cor 14). Thoughts?

I think some of us make a distinction that you do not. You cite the example of a language spoken aloud in the congregation that requires an interpretation. You seem to believe that a private prayer language is invalid, because it is not the same manifestation of the gift. You also seem to object to the congregation joining their private prayer languages in corporate worship, since there is no “interpreter”. The purpose is worship, and lifting Jesus high on the praises of his people.

 

[guanophore]

I'm not clear how it adds anything to someone's salvation.  :shrug:

Pax,
Robert

I think that people who receive this gift are those that need it. Obviously, you don’t! As far as any of the gifts “adding to salvation” I think that the gifts are to help us down the narrow way. It helps as much as any form of prayer helps. How does praying the Divine Office add anything to one’s salvation?

 

[guanophore]

I still fail to see how speaking or praying in tongues is anything today–today–different from some sort of delusion.

Well, you have company. At the first manifestation, the listeners accused Peter and the Apostles of being drunk on too much wine. Oh happy delusion!

In seeing such a thing on television recently I thought: yes, self-delusion there, since speaking in tongue or in tongues has to mean something to somebody other than the speaker.

This is a good way to distinguish the difference between speaking a tongue and praying in tongues.

Since it is otherwise incomprehensible, why would any Catholic wish to take it on the speaker’s word that he is really doing what we mean by speaking at all, esp. as St. Paul means that he speaks more languages than others, which is all tongue (e. g., French, langue, Italian, lingua) really means.

Paul was masterful with many languages. He also prayed in heavenly languages.
Palladio;2586814:

If gibberish is one kind of false prophesy, and nonsensical on the face of it, hasn’t Christ Himself already prepare us for it?

Indeed! However, assuming that something you do not understand is necessarily gibberish is not a very humble approach. Jesus taught us not to judge between the wheat and the tares, but to let them grow together until the harvest. Therefore, what sounds like gibberish to you might be wise to tolerate until the angels come for the harvest.

 

[guanophore]

I still fail to see how speaking or praying in tongues is anything today–today–different from some sort of delusion.

Well, you have company. At the first manifestation, the listeners accused Peter and the Apostles of being drunk on too much wine. Oh happy delusion!

In seeing such a thing on television recently I thought: yes, self-delusion there, since speaking in tongue or in tongues has to mean something to somebody other than the speaker.

This is a good way to distinguish the difference between speaking a tongue and praying in tongues.

Since it is otherwise incomprehensible, why would any Catholic wish to take it on the speaker’s word that he is really doing what we mean by speaking at all, esp. as St. Paul means that he speaks more languages than others, which is all tongue (e. g., French, langue, Italian, lingua) really means.

Paul was masterful with many languages. He also prayed in heavenly languages.
Palladio;2586814:

If gibberish is one kind of false prophesy, and nonsensical on the face of it, hasn’t Christ Himself already prepare us for it?

Indeed! However, assuming that something you do not understand is necessarily gibberish is not a very humble approach. Jesus taught us not to judge between the wheat and the tares, but to let them grow together until the harvest. Therefore, what sounds like gibberish to you might be wise to tolerate until the angels come for the harvest.

I’m puzzled by your reply.

I am unaware that Paul or the apostles spoke in tongues in any sense but the normal one: they spoke languages other than their native language, through the Holy Spirit alone, without so to speak a Berlitz course. The word tongue is a synonym for language.

Being unaware is just reflective of a lack of experience.

I am speaking of those who, today, claim ‘to speak in tongues.’ I have seen this on t. v. and at a Bible church: nobody but the speaker understands what the speaker is saying: that is not speaking, or speech.

I hope, at some point, you will have a more authentic experience of this gift.

To my ears, it is mumbo jumbo, hardly worthy of serious attention by Catholics.

If there is evidence for speaking in tongues where people understand the speech, I would love to see it.

Is my post clear now?

God bless you.

Your disdain was clear in the beginning.

 

[guanophore]

Do priests have to recognize speaking in tongues, because it doesn’t seem well defined.

I am not sure I understand this question. I think most priests are neither educated or experienced in this gift. I would say this about most of the gifts described in I Cor. 12. Most of their training seems to be in the gifts described in Isa.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve heard and read a lot about people speaking in tongues, but haven’t heard of anyone translating. So, is there anyone here who translates? If no one can translate how does one know they are experiencing a gift of the Spirit or not?

This is a very good question. It is not a “translation” per se, as one would translate a common language today. It is an “interpretation” given by the Spirit during the prayer. One person speaks out, and another understands what was meant, and states in in a known language. It is an intuitive understanding, not a rational one. There are many ways to check the authenticity, one being that no message from the Holy Spirit will contradict the scripture or Church Teaching. Also, others in the congregation can confirm that their understanding/interpretation was the same, in the sense that they were getting the same impression from the Spirit. There is training available for persons who wish to develop the gift of prophesy and tongues. It is like any other gift, if you don’t unwrap it, read the directions, and practice with it, then it might likely be unused or misused.

 

[rlg94086]

I think that people who receive this gift are those that need it. Obviously, you don’t! As far as any of the gifts “adding to salvation” I think that the gifts are to help us down the narrow way. It helps as much as any form of prayer helps. How does praying the Divine Office add anything to one’s salvation?

The Divine Office isn’t a “gift.” Anyone can pray it. How do you know I don’t need the gift? Is praying in tongues better than normal prayer?

 

[po18guy]

If you want to see what the peace of Christ can accomplish, pray for the gift of Prophecy. I was hoping for Tongues, but the Lord is smarter than I. I got prophecy. I have seen someone go from screaming profanities and threatening to kill someone all the way to smiling and agreeing to pray for that person-in just one contact. If I suppress myself and ask that the Spirit speak through me, I see such minor miracles.

But, I must remember that I am just God’s crescent wrench. He uses me when he has a job to do and puts me back when he is through. When the plumber repairs your leaking pipe, you don’t thank the wrench, you thank the plumber. God is the plumber-I am just the wrench.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

…One person speaks out, and another understands what was meant, and states in in a known language. It is an intuitive understanding, not a rational one…

Is there anyone here that possesses the gift of interpretation of Tongues? What is the experience like and what are some examples of what is spoken?

 

[Palladio]

Well, you have company. At the first manifestation, the listeners accused Peter and the Apostles of being drunk on too much wine. Oh happy delusion!

This is a good way to distinguish the difference between speaking a tongue and praying in tongues.
Palladio;2586814:

Since it is otherwise incomprehensible, why would any Catholic wish to take it on the speaker’s word that he is really doing what we mean by speaking at all, esp. as St. Paul means that he speaks more languages than others, which is all tongue (e. g., French, langue, Italian, lingua) really means.

Paul was masterful with many languages. He also prayed in heavenly languages.

Indeed! However, assuming that something you do not understand is necessarily gibberish is not a very humble approach. Jesus taught us not to judge between the wheat and the tares, but to let them grow together until the harvest. Therefore, what sounds like gibberish to you might be wise to tolerate until the angels come for the harvest.

Being unaware is just reflective of a lack of experience.

I hope, at some point, you will have a more authentic experience of this gift.

Your disdain was clear in the beginning.

More like disbelief: as in disbelief in false prophecy, which a certain Someone warned us of.

Please don’t quote the NT at me: I don’t know you. You don’t know me. It is your claims which I judge as being, well, none too convincing.

In reading your recent posts, I am in even more disbelief, especially as you take a swipe at priests as being ignorant of what you yourself cannot define, even just a little, or communicate, except among some few equally persuaded of your experience.

You speak as if you were a priest or prophet in receipt of great news–which, however, you cannot share with the rest of us, quite contrary to the evangelizing we can see in the NT and in the RCC today.

Maybe I should disdain these claims, unauthenticated by the Church and invisible to the rest of us.

If you can talk to angels, and they can talk to you, more power to you. But you cannot possibly expect me or anybody to mistake your sanctimonious criticism as evidence for the truth of what you say.

 

[guanophore]

The Divine Office isn’t a “gift.” Anyone can pray it. How do you know I don’t need the gift? Is praying in tongues better than normal prayer?

I think of the DO as a gift, just as I do the rosary. Not everyone does pray it,and a lot of Catholics don’t even know what it is!

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but I thought you said you prayed, and did not receive tongues. Since scripture teaches us to earnestly desire the gifts, and I assumed (hopefully not erroneously) that you prayed in earnest, and did not receive this gift, then I must presume that you did not need it. For me, praying in tongues is better than “normal” prayer (not sure what you mean by that). For others, praying the Rosary is a more pure devotional, for some, the daily Mass, for some, contempletive prayer, or just sitting silently in front of the Blessed Sacrament. I think there are as many varieties of prayer as there are personalties.

 

[guanophore]

Is there anyone here that possesses the gift of interpretation of Tongues? What is the experience like and what are some examples of what is spoken?

This is very hard to explain, and might be better understood if you could be present where the gift is operating. When all present are praying in the Spirit, they are in one heart, and one mind. Being in accord makes them able to recieve and expereince the speech of the HS. The Spirit speaks many things, but often directly in relation to the most present experience. Say, for example, our group was preparing for a Conference, and the Spirit brought scriptures and words of encouragement to our efforts, promises to bless our labors, and to fulfill the prayers that had been offered for that conference.

If an individual is being prayed over, then the content of what is spoken is directed toward the needs of that particular individual, for example, a confirmation or revelation about how one of the speakers prepared. One of our priests prepared a talk on the Baptism of the Spirit and was prepared to talk about fire, but before the talk, all the images were about water. He was very surprised, but talked about this during his presentation.

 

[guanophore]

More like disbelief: as in disbelief in false prophecy, which a certain Someone warned us of.

Yes, I understand this rejection.

Please don’t quote the NT at me: I don’t know you. You don’t know me. It is your claims which I judge as being, well, none too convincing.

What authority would suit you better? You have rejected the current experience of the CCR. You have rejected the scriptural testimony, you have rejected the teaching of the Church,and of the saints. What is left to quote?

In reading your recent posts, I am in even more disbelief, especially as you take a swipe at priests as being ignorant of what you yourself cannot define, even just a little, or communicate, except among some few equally persuaded of your experience.

I am not “swiping” at priests. Priests have to spend years in study and discernment, and most of them have a very strict curriculum. Charismatic experiences are not part of it. I agree, it is difficult to communicate this type of spiritual experience with those who have not experienced it. It is, at it’s core, and experiential understanding.

You speak as if you were a priest or prophet in receipt of great news–which, however, you cannot share with the rest of us, quite contrary to the evangelizing we can see in the NT and in the RCC today.

I don’t think so. I mean, I don’t speak as if I were a priest. In truth, I have no idea what that would even mean! I don’t think my prophetic gift is any different that that which is offered to all who are moved by the Spirit. Even Moses said that he wished all of God’s people were prophets. Prophesy is speaking God’s truth into the present, which I have tried to do here to the best of my limited ability. I am sad that it has resulted in more disbelief on your part, and you are right, it is probably a result of my limitations in this area. I have never considered myself an adequate evangelist.

Maybe I should disdain these claims, unauthenticated by the Church and invisible to the rest of us.

You clearly do disdain them, however, they have been authenticated by the Church, and are quite visible to any who wish to observe them. Charismatic meetings are never held anywhere in “secret” and are always open to any and all.

If you can talk to angels, and they can talk to you, more power to you. But you cannot possibly expect me or anybody to mistake your sanctimonious criticism as evidence for the truth of what you say.

I think that Jesus taught us that our guardian angels behold the face of our father in heaven, and I have been taught to pray to my guardian angel since I was little. I don’t believe this is in any way sanctimonious, but just good religious practice!

I am puzzled about why you are so offended by this spiritual devotion that is shared by charismatics. I understand that it does not commend itself to everyone, and I accept that, but why disparage those who are sincerely seeking God in this manner?

 

[rlg94086]

I think of the DO as a gift, just as I do the rosary. Not everyone does pray it,and a lot of Catholics don’t even know what it is!

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but I thought you said you prayed, and did not receive tongues. Since scripture teaches us to earnestly desire the gifts, and I assumed (hopefully not erroneously) that you prayed in earnest, and did not receive this gift, then I must presume that you did not need it.

Quite presumptious of you IMHO. It was the first Church I ever went to, and I was accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior. I was quite ernest in my prayer. Why would I not need it?
quanophore:

For me, praying in tongues is better than “normal” prayer (not sure what you mean by that). For others, praying the Rosary is a more pure devotional, for some, the daily Mass, for some, contempletive prayer, or just sitting silently in front of the Blessed Sacrament. I think there are as many varieties of prayer as there are personalties.

What a strange statement. You are not sure what I mean, but you are sure that praying in tongues is better.

What I meant by “normal” is prayer in a language that is spoken and understood by human beings. Your comment about speaking in tongues being better is interesting.

 

[guanophore]

Quite presumptious of you IMHO. It was the first Church I ever went to, and I was accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior. I was quite ernest in my prayer. Why would I not need it?

I think only God is qualified to answer that question. From my own experience, I can testify that there are many charismatic christians that do not posess or practice the gift of tongues. Scripture teaches us that each of the gifts is given for the common good, and that the Spirit distributes them according to His will.

What a strange statement. You are not sure what I mean, but you are sure that praying in tongues is better.

Well, perhaps we should “back up” and clarify what you mean by “normal prayer”. What I am telling you is that this is a favorite prayer form for me, and it orients my soul toward God more quickly and effectively than conversational prayer, and traditional prayers such as the Rosary.

What I meant by “normal” is prayer in a language that is spoken and understood by human beings. Your comment about speaking in tongues being better is interesting.

Maybe “better” is not the right word. It works better for me in the sense that I am able to focus my body, soul, mind and heart upon the Holy swiftly and effectively. Perhaps efficacious would be a more appropriate term? I just read on another thread a poster who stated that praying the Rosary is a very effective method of coping with anxiety for her. I suppose one could say that the Rosary is a “better” form of prayer for her, because she has found that it works well for her. As I said, I think there are as many forms of prayer as there are personalties. I find the Mass to be a the most effective prayer, but I find that when I leave, throughout the day, I have difficulty retaining the grace of it unless it is supplemented with other methods. I say this because it is an example of how some persons are weaker than others spiritually. When I said that you do not need the gift of tongues, it is likely that you do not suffer from the same spritual weakness that others of us do, and therefore, are not in dire need of such supplementals.

 

[Palladio]

Yes, I understand this rejection.

What authority would suit you better? You have rejected the current experience of the CCR. You have rejected the scriptural testimony, you have rejected the teaching of the Church,and of the saints. What is left to quote?

I am not “swiping” at priests. Priests have to spend years in study and discernment, and most of them have a very strict curriculum. Charismatic experiences are not part of it. I agree, it is difficult to communicate this type of spiritual experience with those who have not experienced it. It is, at it’s core, and experiential understanding.

I don’t think so. I mean, I don’t speak as if I were a priest. In truth, I have no idea what that would even mean! I don’t think my prophetic gift is any different that that which is offered to all who are moved by the Spirit. Even Moses said that he wished all of God’s people were prophets. Prophesy is speaking God’s truth into the present, which I have tried to do here to the best of my limited ability. I am sad that it has resulted in more disbelief on your part, and you are right, it is probably a result of my limitations in this area. I have never considered myself an adequate evangelist.

You clearly do disdain them, however, they have been authenticated by the Church, and are quite visible to any who wish to observe them. Charismatic meetings are never held anywhere in “secret” and are always open to any and all.

I think that Jesus taught us that our guardian angels behold the face of our father in heaven, and I have been taught to pray to my guardian angel since I was little. I don’t believe this is in any way sanctimonious, but just good religious practice!

I am puzzled about why you are so offended by this spiritual devotion that is shared by charismatics. I understand that it does not commend itself to everyone, and I accept that, but why disparage those who are sincerely seeking God in this manner?

What a poor reply, to be blunt.

I think that, again, your reply leads me to doubt even more whatever it is you are saying, and saying about saying. I am not disparaging anybody: just doubting the claims you make. They don’t make sense. They are self-dramatizing. They are presented, despite good-faith efforts to understand them, less and less clearly and with a thin skin. Search to your heart’s desire. It is no business of mine, but expect nobody who builds his life in faith and reason to take your stories without doubt and without questions, both of which you happen to have increased.

God bless.

 

[guanophore]

What a poor reply, to be blunt.

Ok to be blunt, but perhaps you could be more specific?

I think that, again, your reply leads me to doubt even more whatever it is you are saying, and saying about saying. I am not disparaging anybody: just doubting the claims you make. They don’t make sense. They are self-dramatizing.

I am not sure what you mean by “self-dramatizing”? I can grasp that none of the spiritual gifts “make sense” in the rational sense of the word, since they are spiritual in nature, and can only be grasped from a spiritual point of view. I think that is why they said the Apostles had too much wine. They were making a rational assessment of their behaviors and fitting in what they saw with their expereince.

What I meant was that you are disparaging about the charismatic gifts, especially that of tongues, and seem to disdain those who practice them as being 'off base" somehow.

They are presented, despite good-faith efforts to understand them, less and less clearly and with a thin skin. Search to your heart’s desire. It is no business of mine, but expect nobody who builds his life in faith and reason to take your stories without doubt and without questions, both of which you happen to have increased.

God bless.

Are you saying that my replies are presented unclearly? I don’t understand why you say “with a thin skin”? is it because I noted your disdain toward the practices?

I certainly do not expect anyone who builds his life in faith and reason to be without doubt or without questions. I also don’t expect that one person, who has trouble expressing things clearly, to be able to assuage your doubts and questions. On the other hand, it is good that your questions have increased, because the answers are available by person’s more qualified than myself, and if you are really interested, then I am sure you will be able to get them answered.

 

[DebChris]

I’m rather new here and I have no idea if it is appropriate or welcome to even post in this section since I am not Catholic, but please allow me a comment. If my post is inappropriate, perhaps a moderator can delete it.

As a life long Protestant, I grew up in a church that did not believe in the Gifts of the Spirit. I received much disinformation on the subject. But, when I was a teenager, I became friends with a group that included a Charismatic Catholic, an Assembly of God girl, and several others. They all gathered around me and prayed for me to receive this “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”. I was ignorant and untaught, but had an open spirit for whatever God wanted to give me.

That was ~35 years ago, but I still can’t really describe what happened, other than an incredible outpouring of love and power. Yes I started to pray in tongues…in fact, I didn’t want to stop. For the first time in my life, I felt like I was praying a perfect prayer. The Spirit gives utterence and directs the language, but you are still in full control of your actions. If I had chosen not to speak, I could have stopped. That is the prayer language that Paul speaks of in Corinthians. I have continued to pray in tongues up to this day. It is not “esctatic” or “emotional”. One can pray equally well in any emotional state.

*"One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself… * 1 Cor 14:4

*What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. * 1 Cor 14:15

But the Gift of Tongues to the church must be interpeted to provide “revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching” 1 Cor 14:6

• If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret* 1 Cor 14:27

These are not prayers to God…they are messages from God to His church. Without interpretation they are worthless. I have been in many services where a message in tongues is brought and another then interpets. It is a powerful window into the heart and mind of God, and is clearly taught and permitted by Paul.

Getting beyond the sometimes emotional element of Pentecostal worship, this is the elemental teaching based on scripture. I have witnessed much the same thing at Charismatic Masses, so I assume these truths reach beyond church name or classification.

Again, I appologize if my remarks are inappropriate, but as I’ve read this thread I have read many of the same misunderstandings about these matters as I heard at the Protestant church of my youth.

I do not consider your remarks inappropriate. Rather they provide an answer to the original question. The Assemblies of God and other pentecostal churches were established because of excommunication from fundamental denominations that did not accept the manifestation of gifts as a real experience.
Thankfully, because this gift is recognized by the Catholic Church, it becomes an element and not the focus of our worship. The gift enriches my life. “We do not always know how to pray as we should.” Having the gift allows the Holy Spirit to pray through me. It has helped in discerning one course of action over another. My song may be manifested at prayer groups or within a Charismatic Mass. It is also one of the ways that I pray privately.