Split: If you are addicted, is it a sin?

[CopticChristian]

This thread is getting different issues and definitions so confused.

I literally do not know one person who is an alcoholic who stopped drinking without admitting they were powerless over alcohol. Go over to the porn addiction forum and tell me how many porn addicts just quit in the privacy of their own bedrooms, just cause they wanted to. **Good luck. An addict is deceiving themselves if they believe they can stop without support, Let’s not confuse addiction with breaking bad lifestyle habits here, that is a different discussion. Addicts will deceive themselvs with the illusion of complete self sufficiency. (And let’s not confuse self sufficiency with responsibility, or culpability).**Does an addict HAVE TO go through an official program to recover? Of course not. There are exceptions to every rule. One of my raging alcoholic friends did not go through 12 step or AA to quit drinking, but I went to his house one afternoon and he was on his knees weeping and clinging to his wife’s knees. This was a guy who considered himself completely self succicient and had “toned down” his drinking many times. His wife told him “Choose. Me or the bottle”. He did recover with his wife’s accountability and the help of a well grounded friend who he called whenever he began to sweat. It most certainly was not his willpower that saved him…he found out he had none.

An addiction (not a habit) is for life. Any alcoholic will tell you they can not take one drink. Ever. I cannot look at porn. Tried many times to “just” take a peek, can’t be done. There is a biological and/or spiritual process going on that corrupts your willpower to stop. And please, again, lets not confuse the lack of willpower issue with lack of culpability in sin. No one here is denying these behaviors are sinful, or structures of sin, that have been chosen by the individual.
And the individual is culpable to whatever degree God knows. Culpability and addiction are not mutually exclusive.

**Can addiction be called a disease? **Does it really matter? It is not a disease like some of the diseases one of the posters above has experience with. Most diseases are not taken on by choice and do not involve spiritual corruption, so the same experiences do not completely apply to addiction. If the disease model only treats the biology of an addiction, I can see where it would fail.

I think the most important issue is…that any addict reading this is not encouraged to believe his own willpower is sufficient to recover, that THEY are the ones that don’t need 12 step, or rehab, or support group, or a call buddy when they are put to the test. That THEY are the ones that can beat the system without the humiliation of getting down on their knees and admitting impotence. We always want to believe we are the powerful exception to the common wisdom. These programs continually exist for a reason. The impurity addiction support group on this site is the largest one, for a reason. For any addict I know, the only way to recovery is to be driven to your knees in humility and submission to God, (or a higher power, or your 12 step, or your accountability group, or some combination of these). And really, that’s the case with every human being…addicts just have the advantage of knowing how powerless they are. It’s a blessing truly.

Clem,

You have espoused the 12 step paradigm. Powerless, fooling themselves, etc. Everything in red is right out of the Big Book and is accepted as fact. It is not fact. It is a belief based on experience that does not translate into anything other than empiricism. You cannot believe that it can be done on your own or you would find your paradigm at risk and that is the rub.

If you don’t believe in Will Power…what power caused you to go to meetings if not Will Power? You made a conscious decision, decided to go, acted on it and willfully went. So much for dismissing willpower.

Here are some facts…Stanton Peele, PhD, The Truth About Addiction…

How can therapy that so many people believe in and swear by actually do more harm than good? To illustrate this point, consider the case of a famous psychiatrist who evaluated his hospital’s alcoholism program—one he felt was among the most outstanding in the world. This program first detoxified the alcoholic in the hospital, then mandated A.A. attendance, and finally actively followed patients’ progress with an outreach counseling program. When the psychiatrist running the program, Dr. George Vaillant, evaluated how well his patients were doing two years and eight years after treatment, however, he found they had fared about as well as comparable alcoholics who received no treatment at all!12

How could Vaillant have been so wrong as to think his patients were doing phenomenally well, when actually they were doing no better than if he had left them alone completely? Naturally, he wanted to think it worked. But his research prevented his rose-colored views from distorting the actual results of his treatment. When he counted all his patients, not just his successes, when he scrutinized and verified what they were telling him in order to see exactly how well they were doing, and when he compared them with alcoholics out on their own instead of just assuming that all these people died without the help of treatment like his, Vaillant found that his expensive hospital treatment was close to useless.

Very few people in the treatment industry or in A.A. are as scrupulous as is Vaillant. When we hear from A.A. boosters, they tell us only about those who have stuck with the program and are currently sober. The same is true of treatment programs. They parade their best stars up front. We don’t hear about all their failures. Yet Vaillant, in a book that is cited as the major source of support for the benefits of treating alcoholics according to the disease model, concluded as follows: “If treatment as we currently understand it does not seem more effective than the natural healing processes, then we need to understand those healing processes better.”13 Indeed, Vaillant repeats another researcher’s conclusion that “it may be easier for improper treatment to retard recovery than for proper treatment to hasten it.”14

1. Vaillant, Natural History of Alcoholism, p. 284.
2. Ibid., p. 316.
3. Ibid., p. 293.

addiction is a sin.

 

[TimothyH]

Tim,

Part and parcel of the disease model is that people cannot stop on their own. Nicotine is the most addictive substance on the planet and people stop smoking all the time. The same is true for heroin, cocain, alcohol and any other substance. The media has massaged the brain of some to believe that you can’t do it on your own and that is malarky. That is a sin.

They stop by the grace of God.

I was addicted to pot, cocain and cigarettes, and stopped “On my own” or so I thought.

Looking back, I clearly see the hand of God in it all. The real sin is being given the strength to stop and not giving credit to God.

-Tim-

 

[CopticChristian]

They stop by the grace of God.

I was addicted to pot, cocain and cigarettes, and stopped “On my own” or so I thought.

Looking back, I clearly see the hand of God in it all. The real sin is being given the strength to stop and not giving credit to God.

-Tim-

Timothy,

Then the Athiest, Buddhist, Agnostic, and others are out of luck then, correct?

I am pleased you stopped and believe it was God, and if it was, then in God all things are possible.

Addiction is a sin

 

[clem456]

Clem,

You have espoused the 12 step paradigm. Powerless, fooling themselves, etc. Everything in red is right out of the Big Book and is accepted as fact. It is not fact. It is a belief based on experience that does not translate into anything other than empiricism. You cannot believe that it can be done on your own or you would find your paradigm at risk and that is the rub.

Ok, if you say so. I have never read the Big Book. The 12 step is not my “paradigm”. I did unwittingly accomplish most or all of those steps, but it was not planned, I stumbled through it. I would not be sober without surrender to the support of others, accountability to others, to God, working a plan. I recommend that addicts listen…to people who have gone through it. There are many.

Everyone’s situation is different. Habits can be broken by will power, addictions can not. And this is the mistaken notion that keeps one addicted, that one has the power to stop whenever one wants. It’s not just -a- lie, it is THE lie for addicts. The conscience and will are corrupted steadily through bad choices and then one becomes trapped in the mess one has made. So the conscience is unable to make sound moral decisions, and the will is unable to bring about virtue where -there -is -none. This is key…the self reliant addict is trying to spin straw into gold. There is no room for God’s will to act, the two wills are not one. Willpower becomes a pointless exercise in futility. When one accepts powerlessness and surrenders, then God’s power can infuse the will and recovery can begin. This paradox between willing and surrendering are the source of a lot of confusion, but the gospel is very clear: If one would save one’s life, one must lose it first. For many people surrender is forced on them by poverty or jail or loss of family. Mine was forced by spiritual torture.

If you don’t believe in Will Power…what power caused you to go to meetings if not Will Power? You made a conscious decision, decided to go, acted on it and willfully went. So much for dismissing willpower

.

I don’t believe in will power. In the end analysis, there is no such thing, there is only God’s will and power, accepted by us and graced into our wills. God is the power.

What caused me to join 2 bible studies and have an accountability partner and join a support group? I endured one too many nightmares, and had one too many screaming matches with my wife. I had tried anything you could imagine, everything including all the sacraments and the rosary and confession and the Divine Mercy, all of which are necessary, but they are not my heart and will. I was crushed by the hard truth that I am powerless spiritually, and needed to humble myself before God. And you will say this is all a decision of my will…but remember the gospel paradox. I would submit that this paradox applies to everyone without exception. Does anyone will his own virtue and holiness?

addiction is a sin

Drinking excessively is a sin every time. Taking one drink when you know it leads to a second is a sin, not because you took one drink, but because you took it with the foreknowlege of your addiction.

Looking lustfully at a woman as an object is a sin. Looking up Jennifer Lopez’ pictures at the Oscar’s is not objectively evil, but if** I **do that, it is most definitely a sin, cause I know the consequences for me. Addiction describes the repeated and habitual practice of these sins, and the physical and spiritual consequences of them, part of the “structure of sin” IMO. The disruption of family life due to addiction is a sin. The loss of productivity due to addiction is a sin.

Only God can judge the culpability of a 70 year old homeless man who has been an alcoholic for 30 years. I just find it hard to 100% agree with blanket statements about sin and -degrees of- culpability.

 

[The_Bucket]

Then the Athiest, Buddhist, Agnostic, and others are out of luck then, correct?

God’s power knows no bounds. If He wills people to be cured from addiction, even if they do not believe in Him or if their knowledge of Him skewed because they do not know or do not accept the definition provided by the Church, they will still be cured.

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

My friend. I do not believe that the AMA speaks for all physicians. I never joined and I will not join. The APA as you know has been taken over by Homosexuals that took the notion of Homosexualilty out of the DSM as a disorder. I don’t have to accept or believe anything that the AMA or APA says because they say so, including sanctioning of the disease model.

To suggest that it is Chronic and Progressive is disease model jargon, although you may not realize it.

Habit, to the point of causing difficulty does not make it a disease. Sin once, sin continually, sin habitually, sin incessantly, the greatest sinner is still a sinner and not diseased. Can you change from being a sinner to being a saint? Well Paul was the least of the saints, least of the Apostles and the greatest of sinners…yet we refer to him as St Paul.

I find it amusing that there is no fact, no data, nothing other than empiricism to support a notion that addiction is a disease. I provide facts and I am said to be arguing.

My investigation of the disease model caused me to experience the same experience that I recalled from those that were trying to convert me to Protestant thinking.

The Bible, what I experienced personally, in study, in group and Church.

The Big Book, what I experienced personally, my meetings, my group and other experiental stuff.

I saw the parallel and if you review every post in this thread by those that accept the disease model you will see what I saw when I was studying this. Tell a Protestant that they are wrong and they resort to the Bible and what they learned in Bible study. Disagree with those that accept the Disease model and you get the same thing. Look back for yourself and see if any facts are offered by those that accept the disease model…

The US supreme Court designated AA as a religion, this is fact

The disease model is not the ony model. This is fact.

There are other ways to approach addiction as not a disease. This is fact.

The disease model is based on faulty medical science and propogated by advertising. This is fact.

I do find that Protestants now and again with honesty look and find truths…here is what one Protestant group says…

psychoheresy-aware.org/12steps1.html

psychoheresy-aware.org/12steps2.html

I referred to Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life…

Addiction & Recovery have replaced Sin and Salvation…consistent with this thread…

Step back and ask yourself who is arguing here. All I do is present facts and a differing view, not accepting something someone believes and I am accused of arguing. I am disagreeing with beliefs not facts. I see no such approach from those that accuse of arguing. I am considerate because I know that there are no facts that support the disease model, it is based on a faulty study by a guy named Jellinek, prompted by a guy named Rush…

baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything other than the fact that what is believed has a counter opinion that is factually supported. Look back. I say, believe it if you wish. I am experienced in this arena of disagreement and understand “denial”…To deny is the catch 22 of the paradigm. I know about that too.

Addiction is a sin…

I took this issue of disease versus sin on 15 years ago. A couple of points first . Bill Wilson “got religion” from the Oxford Group (or rather Buckmanites) according to his own words, so, the US Supreme court calling AA a religion is accurate. If the God of your own understanding is Christ, your in good shape I would say. If a person feels like they will go back into bad behavior if they pick up a drink or drug, whether you put the clinical titlle of “chronic” on it or not, they believe they will “always have it” and it most cases they can not return to “social drink”.

A counter opinion is what you rightly say. I didn’t say “habit to the point of causing difficulty makes it a disease”. You keep mixing disease with addiction. I said a habit is not an addiction, but a habit can become an addiction.

Actually much of what you are saying I learned from Protestant groups. Praying away the addiction is a good thing…but God may choose to say no. Sometimes we have what St. Paul had which is a thorn in the side to buffer us, and no matter how much we ask it remains. The catholic church does not shun AA, in fact it treats it much like the Pope did with Muslims who have the one true God but not the fullness of Him. As well father Martin taught the disease model that reached multitudes.

I understand your point that saying “disease” to alcoholics or drug addicts can cause a non accountability. I have had trouble embracing that concept because of ones willingness to inflict the substance upon themselves. I am simply expressing my opinion that just because you call it sin, the other components of the affliction do not suddenly disappear.

 

[Christmastwin]

Christ,

This is AA/12 step talk. Some people are high bottom, others are low bottom. To say that you have to hit rock bottom is AA/12 step speak and treats everyone the same. Some people learn from their mistakes and others do not. The disease model treats everyone the same and does not recognize the high bottom people.

I am not sure if you are speaking Fr. Richard Rohr, the contemplative, he is a Rogue Priest and some of his stuff is not to be believed.

I am addicted to the truth and you should be as well…I am the way, the truth and the light…that is what I was taught.

and if it is not true then you should not follow it.

AA brought me back to Christ. And please don’t tell me what I SHOULD be doing. Christ has done a fine job with calling me back to Him in the way He has chosen to. This is all new to me and I am developing a relationship with Him. Forgive me if I am not as knowledgeable as you are. You had to learn at some point, didn’t you?

That is your opinion about Richard Rohr. Some others had good things to say about him on here.

 

[CopticChristian]

Ok, if you say so. I have never read the Big Book. The 12 step is not my “paradigm”. I did unwittingly accomplish most or all of those steps, but it was not planned, I stumbled through it. I would not be sober without surrender to the support of others, accountability to others, to God, working a plan. I recommend that addicts listen…to people who have gone through it. There are many.

Everyone’s situation is different. **Habits can be broken by will power, addictions can not. **And this is the mistaken notion that keeps one addicted, that one has the power to stop whenever one wants. It’s not just -a- lie, it is THE lie for addicts. The conscience and will are corrupted steadily through bad choices and then one becomes trapped in the mess one has made. So the conscience is unable to make sound moral decisions, and the will is unable to bring about virtue where -there -is -none. This is key…the self reliant addict is trying to spin straw into gold. There is no room for God’s will to act, the two wills are not one. Willpower becomes a pointless exercise in futility. When one accepts powerlessness and surrenders, then God’s power can infuse the will and recovery can begin. This paradox between willing and surrendering are the source of a lot of confusion, but the gospel is very clear: If one would save one’s life, one must lose it first. For many people surrender is forced on them by poverty or jail or loss of family. Mine was forced by spiritual torture.

.

I don’t believe in will power. In the end analysis, there is no such thing, there is only God’s will and power, accepted by us and graced into our wills. God is the power.

What caused me to join 2 bible studies and have an accountability partner and join a support group? I endured one too many nightmares, and had one too many screaming matches with my wife. I had tried anything you could imagine, everything including all the sacraments and the rosary and confession and the Divine Mercy, all of which are necessary, but they are not my heart and will. I was crushed by the hard truth that I am powerless spiritually, and needed to humble myself before God. And you will say this is all a decision of my will…but remember the gospel paradox. I would submit that this paradox applies to everyone without exception. Does anyone will his own virtue and holiness?

Drinking excessively is a sin every time. Taking one drink when you know it leads to a second is a sin, not because you took one drink, but because you took it with the foreknowlege of your addiction.

Looking lustfully at a woman as an object is a sin. Looking up Jennifer Lopez’ pictures at the Oscar’s is not objectively evil, but if** I **do that, it is most definitely a sin, cause I know the consequences for me. Addiction describes the repeated and habitual practice of these sins, and the physical and spiritual consequences of them, part of the “structure of sin” IMO. The disruption of family life due to addiction is a sin. The loss of productivity due to addiction is a sin.

Only God can judge the culpability of a 70 year old homeless man who has been an alcoholic for 30 years. I just find it hard to 100% agree with blanket statements about sin and -degrees of- culpability.

Clem,

You cannot work the steps unless you are not using. In other words you have to stop using before you can work the steps. So stopping happens before you work the steps.

I read the Big Book, Studied the Big Book, got a concordance, studied the Twelve and Twelve and know more abou this than you do then and see that you are parroting what the Big book says. You would know that if you had read it.

The paradigm you have accepted is that this is the only way, you are powerless, you cannot do it. Ok, if you want to believe that but that is not true…

Stanton Peele, PhD, The Truth about Addiction…

In any case, what is most important to you and to us is how—and how often—people get better. Numerous cases we all know about, and in our own lives, show that people do get better on their own—or with relatively minimal assistance. But industry, government, and faith-based
organizations unite on the point that people cannot quit addictions independently. In fact, this is one
of the few areas of unanimity among them. It is strange that all sectors of American society concerned with addiction should be united on this point—especially since it is wrong!

The idea of addiction as inevitably a lifetime burden is a myth. How do we know? Because the American government tells us so. In a massive study carried out by the government’s National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) in which 43,000 Americans were interviewed, only one in ten alcoholics entered AA or rehab. 1 Yet three-quarters of people who were ever alcoholic had achieved stable recovery. The bottom line: three-quarters of those in recovery achieved this state on their own, or at least without some official recovery agency carrying them over the finish line.

It is important for you to know that the independent, self-motivated cure for addiction, natural recovery or self-cure, is possible. You can fight your own addictions, whether to drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, shopping, gambling—you can do it.

Addiction is a sin…

 

[CopticChristian]

God’s power knows no bounds. If He wills people to be cured from addiction, even if they do not believe in Him or if their knowledge of Him skewed because they do not know or do not accept the definition provided by the Church, they will still be cured.

Bucket,

Then does God have people on marrionette strings having them do things because He wills it with other things? What happened to Free Will here in the Catholic paradigm? I have the ability to choose what I do and I have the ability to choose God’s Will as my guide. If this is true for me then it must be true for those that are circumcised of the heart or Baptized of the heart outside the Covenant. Are there different rules you are ascribing to humanity here?

 

[CopticChristian]

9705435]I took this issue of disease versus sin on 15 years ago. A couple of points first . Bill Wilson “got religion” from the Oxford Group (or rather Buckmanites) according to his own words, so, the US Supreme court calling AA a religion is accurate. If the God of your own understanding is Christ, your in good shape I would say. If a person feels like they will go back into bad behavior if they pick up a drink or drug, whether you put the clinical titlle of “chronic” on it or not, they believe they will “always have it” and it most cases they can not return to “social drink”.

A counter opinion is what you rightly say. I didn’t say “habit to the point of causing difficulty makes it a disease”. You keep mixing disease with addiction. I said a habit is not an addiction, but a habit can become an addiction.

Actually much of what you are saying I learned from Protestant groups. Praying away the addiction is a good thing…but God may choose to say no. Sometimes we have what St. Paul had which is a thorn in the side to buffer us, and no matter how much we ask it remains. The catholic church does not shun AA, in fact it treats it much like the Pope did with Muslims who have the one true God but not the fullness of Him. As well father Martin taught the disease model that reached multitudes.

I understand your point that saying “disease” to alcoholics or drug addicts can cause a non accountability. I have had trouble embracing that concept because of ones willingness to inflict the substance upon themselves.** I am simply expressing my opinion that just because you call it sin, the other components of the affliction do not suddenly disappear./**QUOTE]

Johnny,

I have read the Buckmanites work as well. I have several of their tracts. Books like Soul Surgery and the like. It was Buckmans idea that he would return Christainity to first century Christianity. I studied this stuff up and down and know as much or more than someone that says they know this stuff. I understand it, I see the parallels, I find that it is sadly accepted as the only way. It is a way and unfortunately has no statistics to prove it as successful. The only thing that it has going for it is the disciples that spout the beliefs of the system and “I know a guy, and my life was, and you should see”…all testimonials.

The standard evangelical church has people of all types that gave up pornography, drink, drugs, adultery, lying stealing, etc because they came to Christ in the church. Try and tell them that they did not get better. It is no different with the AA crowd. That has been my experience.

I have studied and watched Fr. Martin DVD. He is entertaining but he is not the Church anymore than Fr Richard Rohr is.

I don’t mix disease with addiction.

Addiction as a disease translated to treatment with 12 steps/AA

Addiction as not a disease allows numerous approaches that work.

What sin can you think of that does not cause afflictions? That is the point. Adultery causes hiding, lying cheating, feelings of low esteem etc. Is there a sin once recognized as a sin that does not do what you say. Why is the sin of addiction so special?

I believe as the OP states, addiction is a sin

 

[CopticChristian]

AA brought me back to Christ. And please don’t tell me what I SHOULD be doing. Christ has done a fine job with calling me back to Him in the way He has chosen to. This is all new to me and I am developing a relationship with Him. Forgive me if I am not as knowledgeable as you are. You had to learn at some point, didn’t you?

That is your opinion about Richard Rohr. Some others had good things to say about him on here.

Christmas,

Do as you like. I am not a control freak. I am an information and truth freak. I came to this opinion of Richard Rohr through research on another thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=703395&page=20

Tskrobacz, a poster, was posting some irregular thinking citing Richard Rohr. I researched and found this…it is not just my opinion.

However check out this response to a question about Richard Rohr.

saint-mike.org/qa/sw/viewanswer.asp?QID=465

Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM

Quote:
Dear Brenda:

“father” Rohr is a dissenter from the Faith and one disgusting person. He supports the dissenting organization Call to Action, and his stance on homosexuality and the Enneagram contradicts Roman Catholic teaching.

He speaks in a way that shows his disdain for the Catholic Church making fun of anything distinctly Catholic. This is a man who thinks his opinions outrank the Holy See and who wishes to re-invent the Church in his own image, or get rid of the Church altogether.
There is patently no excuse for any Catholic organization, any Catholic bishop, or any Catholic priest to allow this man to speak at their events. Those that do, and this includes Cardinal Mahoney, should be ashamed of themselves allowing the Faithful to be contaminated by this man’s anti-Catholic dribble and will be held to account before God for their shameful behavior and teaching.

For good insight into the nature of these non-catholic Catholics read the article at Catholic Culture website, Top Amchurch Catechists Subvert Church’s Doctrine and Discipline.

catholicculture.org/cultu…TOKEN=35159985

However you came to Christ I am pleased for you…yes we all learn at different rates. I accelerated my learning because I was eager to consume something that I thought would help another and discovered what in my opinion was less than helpful to many but only some. I realized I was not alone when I found books like

The Truth about Addiction
The Diseasing of America
12 step Horror Stories

and the total lack of any science in the notion that addiction is a disease, and a spiritual disease at that.

addiction is sin

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Addiction a disease or not? I don’t know but I really don’t think it matters.

First of all…I would think your greatest sin lies with your first step into any addiction. But the fact that you are addicted and don’t have free will…doesn’t make it not a sin.

In the thread that this split from the person stated if a person was on LSD and killed someone in a habit because they thought it was the angel of death…the murder would not be a sin…I disagree. Just as if someone is addicted to porn and goes out and rapes someone…sin. Now the degree depending on their culpability is another matter but lets call a sin a sin shall we?

 

[CopticChristian]

Addiction a disease or not? I don’t know but I really don’t think it matters.

First of all…I would think your greatest sin lies with your first step into any addiction. But the fact that you are addicted and don’t have free will…doesn’t make it not a sin.

In the thread that this split from the person stated if a person was on LSD and killed someone in a habit because they thought it was the angel of death…the murder would not be a sin…I disagree. Just as if someone is addicted to porn and goes out and rapes someone…sin. Now the degree depending on their culpability is another matter but lets call a sin a sin shall we?

Annabelle,

Addiction a disease or not only matters to those that force, coerce people into 12 step rehab that is the only treatment for the disease. Now or not means that you can then resolve the addiction any other way but the 12 steps.

If as you say the person took LSD, then they are culpable for taking a mind altering drug. They acted wrongly to alter their mind. Their mind remains their mind and their actions remain their actions and the actions that result in death would be treated as such and would be sin.

In the secular world, driving under the influence does not excuse your actions while under the influence. If you kill someone while driving under the influence you are still culpable.

A sin is a sin is a sin shall we not agree…

 

[clem456]

Clem,

You cannot work the steps unless you are not using. In other words you have to stop using before you can work the steps. So stopping happens before you work the steps.

I read the Big Book, Studied the Big Book, got a concordance, studied the Twelve and Twelve and know more abou this than you do then and see that you are parroting what the Big book says. You would know that if you had read it.

I haven’t read the book, don’t even know what it is. I do know about 12 step from others. I do know that I have gone through most of it by accident or providence or whatever. So I’m parroting? I guess you can read my mind and motivations.

The paradigm you have accepted is that this is the only way, you are powerless, you cannot do it. Ok, if you want to believe that but that is not true…

I don’t accept a paradigm, please don’t throw a blanket on me.
Again (this getting very repetitive), every situation is different. I didn’t join a program, but again, the process I went through mirrored that of every other addict I know. Although if you want to find inconsistency, you can, cause my experience didn’t fit the “paradigm” you are looking for.

I’m not just saying that addicts are powerless, I’m in fact saying that YOU and everyone else without exception, is powerless without God. Addicts are blessed to have that fact presented to them rather forcefully. I don’t think you understand the spirituality of addiction… and are confusing how the will and surrender work together. Surrender is not an abdication of responsibility or culpability.

The reason I’m spending time discussing this with you is this:
It is a disservice to tell addicts they can will their way through something that is stronger than them. Some of them will lose families and jobs, some of the will die…if they don’t come to Jesus (or whatever higher power they accept). That notion of self suficient willpower needs to be refuted. You say addiction is a sin and I tend to agree with you. Do you think human addicts with their corrupted wills and consciences are more powerful than the unnamed demons who are participating in that sin? A huge part of the evil at work is isolation and pride; denying a “program” of accountability is needed, denying that one’s own will is corrupt and in need of redemption by the only power that exists. This is the root of the sin you are pointing out…certainly the drinking and lusting are sins, but the pride and isolation and shame are the real root substance of the sin of addiction. Those are separation from God. Hence you cannot will “I will not take another drink!”, you must first surrender the pride and isolation and shame, and accept God’s power.

This is the battle from the garden of eden all through human history. The apple is shiny and tempting for sure, but the apple was always shiny and Adam and Eve didn’t bite. But notice Satan does not tell them how sweet the apple is, Satan whispers in their ear, appeals to their pride and self sufficiency, and tells them they can have it all without God… they “will surely not die” if they disobey God. And guess what? It’s a lie and man discovers he needs a redeemer to live. Man can’t just want a redeemer when it’s handy, like when his will power fails. Man needs a redeemer always and everywhere, and the constant task is to surrender the pride of self sufficiency, especially in the face of forces more powerful than we are (they do certainly exist). Again, addicts are blessed to be confronted with this truth when others may sit observantly in a church pew and go a lifetime without knowing it.

I share your concern that calling addiction a disease tends to remove responsibility from the addict’s life, but you are carrying your distaste for the “disease model” of addiction too far…

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

 

[CopticChristian]

I haven’t read the book, don’t even know what it is. I do know about 12 step from others. I do know that I have gone through most of it by accident or providence or whatever. So I’m parroting? I guess you can read my mind and motivations.

I don’t accept a paradigm, please don’t throw a blanket on me.
Again (this getting very repetitive), every situation is different. **I didn’t join a program, but again, the process I went through mirrored that of every other addict I know. **Although if you want to find inconsistency, you can, cause my experience didn’t fit the “paradigm” you are looking for.

I’m not just saying that addicts are powerless, I’m in fact saying that YOU and everyone else without exception, is powerless without God. Addicts are blessed to have that fact presented to them rather forcefully. I don’t think you understand the spirituality of addiction… and are confusing how the will and surrender work together. Surrender is not an abdication of responsibility or culpability.

The reason I’m spending time discussing this with you is this:
**It is a disservice to tell addicts they can will their way through something that is stronger than them. Some of them will lose families and jobs, some of the will die…**if they don’t come to Jesus (or whatever higher power they accept). That notion of self suficient willpower needs to be refuted. You say addiction is a sin and I tend to agree with you. Do you think human addicts with their corrupted wills and consciences are more powerful than the unnamed demons who are participating in that sin? A huge part of the evil at work is isolation and pride; denying a “program” of accountability is needed, denying that one’s own will is corrupt and in need of redemption by the only power that exists. This is the root of the sin you are pointing out…certainly the drinking and lusting are sins, but the pride and isolation and shame are the real root substance of the sin of addiction. Those are separation from God. Hence you cannot will “I will not take another drink!”, you must first surrender the pride and isolation and shame, and accept God’s power.

This is the battle from the garden of eden all through human history. The apple is shiny and tempting for sure, but the apple was always shiny and Adam and Eve didn’t bite. But notice Satan does not tell them how sweet the apple is, Satan whispers in their ear, appeals to their pride and self sufficiency, and tells them they can have it all without God… they “will surely not die” if they disobey God. And guess what? It’s a lie and man discovers he needs a redeemer to live. Man can’t just want a redeemer when it’s handy, like when his will power fails. Man needs a redeemer always and everywhere, and the constant task is to surrender the pride of self sufficiency, especially in the face of forces more powerful than we are (they do certainly exist). Again, **addicts are blessed to be confronted **with this truth when others may sit observantly in a church pew and go a lifetime without knowing it.

I share your concern that calling addiction a disease tends to remove responsibility from the addict’s life, but you are carrying your distaste for the “disease model” of addiction too far…

Clem,

I did not start this journey with any intention that was negative.

I was proselytized heavily by Protestants. I went to Bible study, learned their theology, spent time listening, discussing, asking questions and sooner or later realized that everyone spouted the same information by attending church, group discussion and Bible study. It was the same party line. Read some of the posts from Protestants and they have the same language, same thoughts and they got it from the same place.

Every 12 step meeting place is based on The Big Book. Every meeting has the Sponsors looking for pigeons, new recruits, to sponsor. Every meeting has senior people that go and spout the message from the book. What you learned in meetings is from the Book and what you know is from the book. It is no different than the Protestant Bible study or church service. The message is delivered by oral tradition and you believe in that.

I never intended to study and discredit anything. I entered the study of this stuff to learn it and teach it and make it work for someone that was near to me because I thought if I knew this stuff I could help. With my background in Protestant inculcation it was an easy read to see what the 12 steps were, basically a Protestant oriented organization delivering a message and the reality is it wrong. If you have not heard of Joe & Charley, they have a series of audio tapes that explain the paradigm with the history of it. The Big Book was intended to be Bible like. Do you understande that. It was to be carried and read. The message is there and that is where the message comes from. Here is what set me off.

Powerless, huh.
Allergy to alcohol. There is an allergy however rare and nothing like what they talk about in meetings.
Disease, huh
Spiritual disease
Character defect=sin
Adultery was treated as a special sin that you did not have to be completely honest about
Buckman
Oxford Groupers
AA a religion

Ultimately I came to believe, does that sound familiar to you, I came to believe that this was bunk and realized why.

If you went to meetings and learned what was in the book, you joined a program unwittingly. Many do. My point is that many do not know what it is they are joining and you point that out explicitly.

You don’t believe you have accepted a paradigm however in your writing you express the paradigm as you learned it and that happens to many that don’t know what they have been brain washed to believe. What you are spouting is a belief, not fact.

I agree that God is necessary, however the world does not acknowledge God and that leaves the problem of addiction who do not have God Powerless and that makes no sense. The Catholic Church acknowledges that God is working in people’s lives but they don’t recognize it.

The 12 step/AA, disease model paradigm party line is that you need AA/12 steps, cannot do it on your own, and if you stop going to meetings you will die. Too many are alive, depressed, sad, lives ruined because of this message. You may want to look into 12 step deprogramming. Yes such a thing exists.

Refuting willpower is part and parcel of the paradigm you have accepted and this is bunk. AA/12 steps is not the only way and the tragedy is that what you have learned and what they teach is just this.

More of the program paradigm of the necessity of a program of accountabililty in spite of showing you that published data proves that this is one of the least effective ways to deal with addiction. If you look back, I posted what works, and this is the difficulty in dialogue with a 12 step/AA, disease model disciple. The facts are ignored in view of experience and taught belief.

Addicts are blessed to be confronted or suffer an intervention when in reality published data proves that the CRAFT method works better. You are again spouting beliefs and not facts. This is again the problem with the disease model. There is invincible ignorance associated with acceptance of fact vs belief.

I am grateful you found relief. I think you are sincere. You can be sincerely wrong and if you want to believe all of this then great. If it keeps you sane and healthy then great. Realize that there are over a 1000 viewers that may have someone affected by addiction. I pray that they learn that there are many ways to aid their loved ones, not one way, and pray that they have the sincere and earnest desire to seek truth and not fantasy.

I pray that they like you come to Christ and know that in God all things are possible, and understand that when it comes to addiction they can help their loved ones with methods that have tried and true success when studied.

addiction is a sin.

 

[Christmastwin]

@CopticChristian

Whatever your beef is with 12 Step programs, that’s fine. The 12 Steps have helped millions of people and I can only hope that your posts don’t turn some folks away from seeking help through AA, NA, whatever. For many of us, that was our last hope and it is working.

Peace and God bless.

 

[CopticChristian]

@CopticChristian

Whatever your beef is with 12 Step programs, that’s fine. The 12 Steps have helped millions of people and I can only hope that your posts don’t turn some folks away from seeking help through AA, NA, whatever. For many of us, that was our last hope and it is working.

Peace and God bless.

Christ,

I realize that anyone that opposes your belief is said to have a beef. I said, I am addicted to the truth. I am addicted to facts not fancy. I believe in reality and not myths. The following is from Stanton Peele, PhD, The Truth about addiction.

Myths Versus Realities•

To highlight some of the surprising facts we will reveal, here are some common beliefs about various addictions:

• A person needs medical treatment or a program like Smokenders to quit smoking.*
• Attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings is the most effective way for alcoholics to stop drinking.
• Nearly all regular cocaine users become addicted.
• Very few people who have a drinking problem can ever drink in a normal, controlled manner.
• Drunk drivers who undergo treatment for alcoholism are less likely to repeat the offense than those who receive normal judicial penalties such as license suspension.
• Most people with an alcoholic parent become alcoholics themselves.
• Most people who are binge drinkers in their twenties go on to become alcoholics.
• Most of the American soldiers who were addicted to heroin in Vietnam remained addicted or became addicted again after they returned home.
• The fact that alcoholism runs in families means that it is an inherited disease.
• Fat children, because they have inherited their obesity, are more likely to be fat in later life than are people who become fat as adults.

The disadvantages of the disease approach are that it

:

• attacks people’s feelings of personal control and can thus become a self-fulfilling prophecy;
• makes mountains out of molehills, since it fails to differentiate between the worst alcoholics and addicts and those with minor substance-use dependence; stigmatizes people—in their own minds—for life;
• interrupts normal maturation for the young, for whom this approach is completely inappropriate;
• holds up as models for drinking and drug use the people who have shown the least capacity to manage their lives;
• isolates alcoholism and addiction as problems from the rest of the alcoholic’s or addict’s life;
• limits people’s human contacts primarily to other recovering alcoholics or addicts, who only reinforce their preoccupation with drinking and drug use;
• dispenses a rigid program of therapy that is founded—in the words of the director of the government’s National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIA.A.A)—“on hunch, not evidence, and not on science,”11 while attacking more effective therapies./QUOTE]
I would hope that many people reading these posts see that as the last sentence in this quote proves, reading the posts of those that have accepted the 12 step paradigm, the attacks are real. You and others have proved that point.

I would hope that many people reading these posts see that some believe that there is help in 12 steps and if there are some that doubt that they investigate why they doubt and seek scientific proof for what works.

 

[ringil]

Ffln,

I see you have swallowed the disease model. The brain washing campaign seems to work pretty well…

from Stanton Peel, PhD…The Truth about Addiction

Peel receives funding from:

The Distilled Spirits Council of the United States (DISCUS), and the Wine Institute provided unrestricted grants.[12]

Sourse: wikipedia

 

[CopticChristian]

Peel receives funding from:

The Distilled Spirits Council of the United States (DISCUS), and the Wine Institute provided unrestricted grants.[12]

Sourse: wikipedia

Ringil,

You have provided no link to the source and then provided a statement without a source. Provide me the information. I will read it, forward it to Stanton Peele, Phd and see what he says about it. Is that fair or not?