SPLIT: Paying for Faith Formation

[MelbaTozt]

For those of you who don’t know who Jimmy Akin is, he is the Catholic Answers Director of Apologetics and Evangelization. No one has commented directly on his (name removed by moderator)ut that I posted earlier.

 

[Corki]

This discussion is not necessarily solving the problem of one family; it’s about whether or not requiring money in order to receive a sacrament is justifiable, and whether or not requiring a fee to teach the Faith is absolutely backwards-thinking when trying to reach people for Christ in our community.

This is a timely topic considering that more and more parishes are demanding payment for these services that used to be offered at the expense of the parish as a whole.

Well, here is part of the disconnect. Parishes do not offer religious education classes as part of their mission to “reach people for Christ in our community”. Faith formation is supposed to be a supplement to the education a child is already receiving from his family who is already supposed to be an active member of the Church community.

Obviously, I am not alone in this concern.

As for how I would solve the problem, it’s simple: 1. Offer all classes without a required payment, but suggest a donation.;

Which isn’t much different that charging a fee by making lots of waivers available.

1. If the Parish cannot cover fancy textbooks or arts and crafts, then the classes will just have to be bare-bones. (I homeschool my four children and can testify that the greatest learning occurs when we are engaged in discussion with each other and homework is a simple narration using only pencil and paper.) Let the true need be exposed and allow the parishioners to meet those needs!;

Wait, didn’t you earlier say that your kids weren’t old enough for faith formation classes? How are they old enough for naration work at home but too young for CCE? Our CCE starts with Kindergarten and the first required year is 1st grade.

Our parish doesn’t use “fancy textbooks” but if you are going to try to teach pre-readers, you need hands-on materials. You also can’t teach a class of 15-20 using the same methods you use to teach your homeschoolers. Even with older kids, narration doesn’t work well when you have a mix of ability levels and proficiencies with English.

Also we only have 1 hour and 15 minutes per week. If we had to narrate the day’s work AND the homework, we would never have time to do any teaching.

1. Teachers should be volunteers who realize this is a sacrifice of their time and perhaps some money. If they don’t have the passion on their own to share the Faith, then what are they doing in the classroom?

How many years have you been DRE for your parish? What have you done to be so successful finding teachers?

In our parish, we are all volunteers. Our DRE scrambles to find enough to teach each class. As a rural community, there aren’t many adults who can commit to the whole year between the crops and the cattle shows. Even our high school kids have trouble during the height of FFA. If we told people they couldn’t be CCE teachers without a financial committment, who would come?

We also have a desparate need for teachers who speak Spanish but most of our potential Spanish-speaking volunteers don’t speak much English. The ones who do are certainly not in a position to pay to be a CCE teacher.

1. Have bake-sales, raffles and other voluntary events to supplement the budget.;

That’s a good idea (except the raffles - they aren’t allowed any more). There is a point of saturation for a small parish. We already have two bazaars, fish frys, breakfast tortilla sales, cake sales and numerous “drives” for the needy. And that’s just to keep the rest of the parish going.

1. Don’t exclude children who aren’t getting proper instruction at home, but welcome them as Christ would welcome them.

Of course, that’s why it’s important to have good materials.

1. Trust, as most of our great saints did, that God will provide if we give of ourselves freely.

Amen.

No offense, but your suggestions for how **you **would solve the problem don’t seem to involve you at all. They are all ways to try to get more work and more donations out of the small group of core individuals who are already keeping the program afloat.

 

[KarenElissa]

For those of you who don’t know who Jimmy Akin is, he is the Catholic Answers Director of Apologetics and Evangelization. No one has commented directly on his (name removed by moderator)ut that I posted earlier.

I saw it, but disagree. Being as all the parishes I looked at in my dioceses charge for RE, I would guess that my bishop knows. And I would have an awful hard time accusing my bishop (and any number of other bishops) of simony. And it is to my bishop that I owe my obedience, not Jimmy Akin.

 

[Corki]

For those of you who don’t know who Jimmy Akin is, he is the Catholic Answers Director of Apologetics and Evangelization. No one has commented directly on his (name removed by moderator)ut that I posted earlier.

Actually both posts #73 and #74 did just that.

With respect to you and JA, evangelical Sunday School is nothing like CCE classes. It is an apples and organges comparison.

1. The main purpose of protestant Sunday School is to teach the Bible. The main purpose of CCE is to teach the doctrines of the faith so that our children can use them for the rest of their lives.
2. Sunday school is many, if not most, protestant Churches is what the kids do while the grown-ups are in Church. CCE is where the kids learn their faith so they can better understand what goes on in Church which they attend as well.
3. CCE is preparation for a life’s worth of Sacraments. Sunday School is mostly about trying to get kids to have a closer “personal relationship” with Jesus* today*.
4. The big kids’ events at the protestant churches have corporate sponsors. I don’t think our parish would ever even want to go that route.

Not only that but Sunday School isn’t exactly free. The kids in my neighborhood are told to “practice tithing” by bringing a dollar each week to Sunday School. So they actually pay more than the 85 cents per week that the CCE kids pay.

 

[KarenElissa]

1. If the Parish cannot cover fancy textbooks or arts and crafts, then the classes will just have to be bare-bones. (I homeschool my four children and can testify that the greatest learning occurs when we are engaged in discussion with each other and homework is a simple narration using only pencil and paper.)

I’m glad this technique works well for your kids, but it doesn’t for all kids. Kids learn in different ways, some by hearing, some by reading, some by doing. I prefer to try and reach out to as many kids with various learning styles and include a lot of activities as well as reading and discussion.

1. Teachers should be volunteers who realize this is a sacrifice of their time and perhaps some money. If they don’t have the passion on their own to share the Faith, then what are they doing in the classroom?

I don’t know any catechist who doesn’t see this as a ministry and who doesn’t but a lot of effort into it. But REQUIRING catechists to throw in their own money doesn’t exactly seem fair. I just lost my job, should I not be allowed to be a catechist any more since I won’t be able to put any money into my class?

1. Have bake-sales, raffles and other voluntary events to supplement the budget.;

Like someone else said, many of these things are already being done for other groups. And my parish has a school, so they do many of these things as well. One can only do so many fundraisers. In addition, you have to have people to do these things. It is going to be awful hard to get our catechists, who are often already involved in many other ministries, to add something else to their already busy schedule.

1. Don’t exclude children who aren’t getting proper instruction at home, but welcome them as Christ would welcome them.

We aren’t. I’ve found it is often these children who are best reached by methods of teaching other than just sitting and reading or talking. By making RE more “boring” it is the kids who aren’t being raised in strong Catholic families that will be turned off. Using creative methods (that often require a bit more supplies) is a lot more likely to reach these kids.

 

[Corki]

We aren’t. I’ve found it is often these children who are best reached by methods of teaching other than just sitting and reading or talking. By making RE more “boring” it is the kids who aren’t being raised in strong Catholic families that will be turned off. Using creative methods (that often require a bit more supplies) is a lot more likely to reach these kids.

Karen, you bring up an excellent point. The kids that aren’t being taught their faith well at home can also be “all over the map” with regard to where they are. I used to teach 9th grade CCE. Some of the kids, even the ones who never went to Mass, had been coming to CCE since they were little. Others hadn’t even been to Church or CCE since their Baptisms. The texts are spiral but also sequential. They build on what the students (supposedly) learned in previous years. Some of the best ways to reach such a wide spread were group projects - building something or making something together. (and videos with discussion)

 

[familyof4]

Then why not make it a customary offering/donation like all the other sacraments?

I’m sorry, but it seems that you are still of the mind that the charge for the classes is for a profit. As was listed by more than one CFF teacher, the fees that are charged (and can be waived) do not cover the classes. It is a way to hopefully offset the costs of the classes, not pad someone’s pocket.

Churches run in the red-- people have all sorts of reasons for not supporting their local parish, and I’m guessing they run the gamut from valid to selfish. Regardless, there isn’t enough collected from the pews to make every little thing free.

Frankly, a nominal fee also helps to ensure people will keep their child in class. People seem to be more vested in something they have an economic stake in than something handed to them for free.

Are you involved in your parish? Do you think that you might be able to offer a little more of your time to help out in your faith classes? Maybe when you see what is going on “behind the scenes”, you’ll get a fuller picture of what is going on.

 

[KarenElissa]

Karen, you bring up an excellent point. The kids that aren’t being taught their faith well at home can also be “all over the map” with regard to where they are. I used to teach 9th grade CCE. Some of the kids, even the ones who never went to Mass, had been coming to CCE since they were little. Others hadn’t even been to Church or CCE since their Baptisms. The texts are spiral but also sequential. They build on what the students (supposedly) learned in previous years. Some of the best ways to reach such a wide spread were group projects - building something or making something together. (and videos with discussion)

Yup, I teach RCIA for kids/teens, so most of my kids have very little experience with the faith. Some of the kids I get are very excited to be there and are responsible for their parents rediscovering the faith. But I also get plenty whose parents are rediscovering and want their kids along too, and some who are finally giving into pressure from grandparents and other family members. These are the kids who are not necessarily excited about being there and need some fun to make them want to learn.

 

[familyof4]

My parish charges for RCIA. I don’t see a problem with that either, assuming that it is waived if needed (and I don’t know any parish who won’t).

I get that it is very different from the customs in many protestant churches, I’m a convert myself. But I don’t see the problem, it is just that, a different way of doing things. If parishes were with holding sacraments if people weren’t able to pay or were charging exorbitant amounts, that would be a problem. But I don’t have a problem asking people to contribute to the support of things in which they are involved.

Like others have asked, how do you plan on funding these programs if there is no charge? Saying people should tithe more sounds like a good thing, but it isn’t going to just happen. So what do you think we should do?

Just an aside: I was one who mentioned that my parish does not charge for RCIA. The thinking behind this decision is that it is part of our evangelical work rather than part of the faith formation of people who are already Catholic. We are trying to cut costs by doing things like emailing the articles and handouts and having the student print them out, but we still end up paying for things out of pocket.

Like teachers for the kids, we know we’ll end up spending some of our own money, but it’s a labor of love-- but I can’t afford to underwrite the whole program.

I really don’t understand why the idea of paying a nominal fee for a course is such an outrage. Heck, public school is free, but they still have lab fees and costs that families are expected to cover. A budget only goes so far-- and so we ask for help from the people who directly benefit from it. As has been noted over and over again, if a family cannot pay, for what ever reason, they can and will be given a waiver.

 

[familyof4]

Yup, I teach RCIA for kids/teens, so most of my kids have very little experience with the faith. Some of the kids I get are very excited to be there and are responsible for their parents rediscovering the faith. But I also get plenty whose parents are rediscovering and want their kids along too, and some who are finally giving into pressure from grandparents and other family members. These are the kids who are not necessarily excited about being there and need some fun to make them want to learn.

Oh, I should clarify-- when I’m talking about RCIA, I’m talking about adults who are not Catholic, not teens.

 

[KarenElissa]

Oh, I should clarify-- when I’m talking about RCIA, I’m talking about adults who are not Catholic, not teens.

Ya, we charge for both kids and adult RCIA.

I do see the difference between charging for RCIA and for RE, but I don’t really have a problem charging for either. I went through RCIA and never thought twice about having to pay for it, it just wasn’t a big deal. I did ask if I could put it off a couple of weeks until payday and it wasn’t a big deal. The only thing that ever happened were general reminders to pay if you hadn’t. I don’t think they ever would have bothered me if I didn’t pay.

 

[familyof4]

Ya, we charge for both kids and adult RCIA.

I do see the difference between charging for RCIA and for RE, but I don’t really have a problem charging for either. I went through RCIA and never thought twice about having to pay for it, it just wasn’t a big deal. I did ask if I could put it off a couple of weeks until payday and it wasn’t a big deal. The only thing that ever happened were general reminders to pay if you hadn’t. I don’t think they ever would have bothered me if I didn’t pay.

I wouldn’t have given it a second thought if they had charged when my dh went through RCIA-- primarily because I know that religion classes really take a chunk out of a non-existent budget.

Every year, we have to rethink it. We’re lucky to have some generous parishioners who have helped out, but when they retire, we may have to figure out a nominal fee. I’d love it if tithing paid enough, but I don’t think very many parishioners pay 10% of their income. 1-2% is probably the norm.

I will say that I have grave concerns over comparing the over the top protestant Sunday schools to faith formation classes. Those protestant denominations are fully expected to pay their full tithe-- the money they spend on kid classes is really a small investment to ensuring returns from their parents and the children themselves when they’re grown.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

When I pay my tithe each week at Mass, this is what I’m paying for. If our parishes do not find it a priority to teach our children in the Faith and offer them the sacraments, what in the world is their priority?

Your parish doesn’t have any general obligations? Like the priest, secretary, heat, electricity, or that sort? What about wine and communion hosts? Those are all free? So they your money goes directy to teaching children the Faith?

I know we have a lot of families that are always there for free food and they want this and that and the other thing…

But when it’s time to provide for the parish…time, talent, or treasure…suddendly they are missing…

 

[EasterJoy]

Your parish doesn’t have any general obligations? Like the priest, secretary, heat, electricity, or that sort? What about wine and communion hosts? Those are all free? So they your money goes directy to teaching children the Faith?

I know we have a lot of families that are always there for free food and they want this and that and the other thing…

But when it’s time to provide for the parish…time, talent, or treasure…suddendly they are missing…

The lion’s share of the support for the Church, in both volunteer hours and dollars, comes from 25% of the parishioners. In some parishes, it’s worse than that. The trend seems to be that the smaller the parish is, the greater the percentage of parishioners see that they have a responsibility to pitch in.

 

[MelbaTozt]

From another thread:

I had signed my kids up for VBS, but then, dh was laid off. It’s $45. So, I emailed my friend who was doing the sign ups to take the kids off the list. But, then she wanted to pay the fees. My friend is on a very tight income and I don’t want to take money from them for an optional activity.

So, then I talked to the director of the program about us paying the fees later this summer when dh is working again. It was so humiliating. I figured since she was a good friend too, that she would keep it quiet and either tell me yes or no. But, she said she’d submit our name to the pastor for financial assistance. He’s evaluating requests for fee waivers because “he’ll know who really needs help and who’s trying to be cheap.”

I’m so unsettled by the whole thing. First of all, I don’t think there should be a fee for VBS. Secondly, I think if you are volunteering, you shouldn’t have to pay. I’m working two of the nights and my teens are working all week.

It’ll about kill us since only have a few hundred dollars until unemployment kicks in–two weeks away. Unemployment goes from Sunday to Saturday. And, since dh’s last day was a Sunday, he has to wait both that week and the waiver week and the next week before he can collect. His boss also cancelled vacation pay.

Unemployment compensation is half of our usual take home. I’m not really sure what we are going to do…

What really is hitting me is that it is very hard to be poor. And, offering waivers and scholarships since like a nice idea, but in actuality is both humiliating and an obstacle for parents participating in programs. I’ve helped run programs in the past that have offered a waiver or reduced fees for those who qualify. Now, I can see how hard it is to ask for it. Our CCD program charges hefty fees, too.

Is our church only for middle class and wealthy families? Of course, we can always make the poor grovel and apply for a fee waiver…

It would be hard to tell my little kids that they can’t go now that we’ve talked about it and my teens and I are committed to working it. So, either I pay all or I grovel…more, I mean. Or, I pull them out.

To tell you the truth, I’m leaning towards pulling them.

 

[GwenL]

I’m a catechist at my parish; I teach teenagers preparing for Confirmation.

We charge a fee for the class. We charge a fee for First Holy Communion also. We do not charge a fee for continuing education classes (kids who have received FHC but aren’t ready for Confirmation). We offer discounts for multiple kids.

Our parish is poor. We don’t have exhorbitant new projects. We do have a boiler that needs replacing, a leaky roof, asbestos in the ceiling that needs replacement, etc.

Our catechists are all volunteers. Our DRE team is our two priests and two lay volunteers; we cannot afford a DRE salary.

We live in the high desert/mountains. We must pay for heat in the winter. Expenses add up. We have a fine, orthodox textbook. It costs $30; we charge a deposit for the text that we refund if the parents turn it in at year end. We give the kids to keep an accompanying workbook. We have a retreat that costs $. We have Theology of the Body sessions once a month on Sunday. We have a Family Mass once a month. We require the parents to attend some form of adult catechesis (our adult faith formation, bible study, apologetics, or Spanish-language program). It adds up. It isn’t free. It isn’t paid for by Sunday collections (note the above infrastructure requirements).

It is living in a fantasy land to expect a parish like ours to offer religious education for free. Somebody has to pay. The Sunday collection doesn’t even cover our ancient infrastructure. We are in a poor, urban area and just don’t have the rich folks of someone’s imagination.

I have no kids, yet I paid over $100 out of pocket for miscellaneous classroom expenses last year, plus additional for retreat expenses. All of our catechists do the same. We have four catechists that teach at our parish and one other parish. One catechist went halfway across the country last year, at her own expense, to attend a Theology of the Body workshop and teacher training session.

When a family cannot afford the fee, they talk to the priest who waives the fee.

When a family is educating their children in the faith sufficiently to forgo the class, they talk to the priest who already knows the family, already knows the kid, and happily allows the kid to receive the sacrament without the class. Those people who know enough to educate their own kids are the same ones who are deeply involved in parish life and are well known to the priests. And you know what–these parents often send their kids through at least a year of the two year program anyways. These kids learn about other kids less fortunate, in terms of family and faith, and come away as much better Christians.

For those complaining about fees–how many fundraisers have you organized and run for your parish religious education program? How many hours have you taught? How many retreats have you chaperoned? How much time, talent, and treasure have you donated to the parish?

 

[familyof4]

From another thread:

I had signed my kids up for VBS, but then, dh was laid off. It’s $45. So, I emailed my friend who was doing the sign ups to take the kids off the list. But, then she wanted to pay the fees. My friend is on a very tight income and I don’t want to take money from them for an optional activity.

So, then I talked to the director of the program about us paying the fees later this summer when dh is working again. It was so humiliating. I figured since she was a good friend too, that she would keep it quiet and either tell me yes or no. But, she said she’d submit our name to the pastor for financial assistance. He’s evaluating requests for fee waivers because “he’ll know who really needs help and who’s trying to be cheap.”

I’m so unsettled by the whole thing. First of all, I don’t think there should be a fee for VBS. Secondly, I think if you are volunteering, you shouldn’t have to pay. I’m working two of the nights and my teens are working all week.

It’ll about kill us since only have a few hundred dollars until unemployment kicks in–two weeks away. Unemployment goes from Sunday to Saturday. And, since dh’s last day was a Sunday, he has to wait both that week and the waiver week and the next week before he can collect. His boss also cancelled vacation pay.

Unemployment compensation is half of our usual take home. I’m not really sure what we are going to do…

What really is hitting me is that it is very hard to be poor. And, offering waivers and scholarships since like a nice idea, but in actuality is both humiliating and an obstacle for parents participating in programs. I’ve helped run programs in the past that have offered a waiver or reduced fees for those who qualify. Now, I can see how hard it is to ask for it. Our CCD program charges hefty fees, too.

Is our church only for middle class and wealthy families? Of course, we can always make the poor grovel and apply for a fee waiver…

It would be hard to tell my little kids that they can’t go now that we’ve talked about it and my teens and I are committed to working it. So, either I pay all or I grovel…more, I mean. Or, I pull them out.

To tell you the truth, I’m leaning towards pulling them.

You seem to be looking for a reason-- any reason-- to justify not supporting your parish. Several people have posted here-- teachers, religious education leaders, and such.

I’m sure that you can continue to find outrageous examples of poor behavior, but the fact of the matter is that for those of us who are actually involved in the day to day work, this is the exception (and one I have NEVER seen) rather than the rule.

Oh— here is the original thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=348425

You forgot to mention that VBS, the program that the original thread you quoted from but did not link to is an optional program. VBS= Vacation Bible School.

 

[MelbaTozt]

Should I compile a list of what exactly I contribute to my parish?

I feel no need to prove myself to anyone here and then cry about how much I do, or how much others do, compared to those other “lazy parishioners.”

If someone pays money out of their own pocket to give the Faith to another, that’s WONDERFUL! If you give to your parish by teaching the Faith, awesome! But if you’re bitter about doing it, always looking around at the others in the Church and questioning what they do or don’t do, you are not doing it in the spirit Christ intended. And if that bitterness leads to attaching fees to Sacraments… then what in the world are you doing there in the first place?

No, I haven’t taught in the Catholic Church. My husband has and several friends and family (including my brother-in-law, a priest). I haven’t had that opportunity yet. I have taught in Protestant churches with all the right intentions (unlike what someone else said about the motives behind free Protestant classes), and have seen that generosity in teaching begets generosity in other ways.

Look, obviously I’m outnumbered on this thread. People tend to express opinions on the majority side anyway (basic psychology) so I doubt anyone will truly step back and consider the points I’ve made or those made by Jimmy Akin or the priest who moderates this forum.

I believe this is a far more serious issue than you all realize and will only weaken our Church in the future.

With that, goodnight and God bless you all!

 

[Edward_H]

I have lived in many states over the past few years and have had my kids in various parish catechism classes that were free. This is really the way it should be because you shouldn’t charge anything to teach the Holy Faith given to us by Jesus Christ free of charge and handed down to us free of charge for over 2000 years. You especially shouldn’t charge for the sacraments or the reception of the sacraments. Could you ever imaging Jesus charging the apostles a silver piece for their first Eucharist at the last supper? He would never do this because it is a sacrilege to put a price tag on the Body and Blood of Christ who is God. Nor can you put a price tag on what was handed down from Christ as our Faith which He freely gave to us.

When you charge a fee, you are not only behaving like a Judas, you are also making it harder for the poor (the ones Our Lord especially loved and embraced) to receive the Faith and the sacraments.

This has become an issue for me because I just joined a parish in Round Rock, Texas and they are going to charge me $75 for 1st Communion classes for my daughter. They told me that I have to take the class in order for my daughter to receive 1st Communion and that I have to pay. When I ask them if they are going to refuse 1st Communion to my daughter if we don’t pay they simply state that I need to pay for the class for the “materials.” What I say is throw out the materials if that is the barrier to my daughter receiving the sacrament. She doesn’t need materials. She only needs Our Blessed Lord. I teach her every Sunday from the Baltimore Catechism (which is timeless as our Faith is) so she knows everything about the meaning of the Eucharist and has been ready for two years now to receive Our Lord.

I refuse to pay for Faith formation or to pay to receive a sacrament because it’s immoral to do so. Have we forgotten the abuse of Johann Tetzel selling spiritual goods? What penalty the Church paid for his selling spiritual things! What penalty will we pay for charging to learn about Christ and to receive the sacraments?

We all know where the money is going. Judas knew where the money he collected was going. I taught catechism at several Texas parishes in the past and I wasn’t given any money for any of the materials which I paid for out of my own pocket. Nor was I offered anything for these materials. The only thing I was given was a watered down text that could be used in any Protestant church because it didn’t teach the Roman Catholic Faith. In fact the DRE criticized me for teaching about things like confession and original sin which she said the “church” no longer teaches. This was a DRE that was getting paid fulltime.

I’m sure there are many parents who decide to not take their kids to Faith formation because of the charges. I understand how much the materials may cost but there are other ways to remove these costs. You could find a solid catechism and just re-use it every year. Just ask the kids to bring their own pencil and paper and the cost would be 99cents per student per year.

I’m not poor and could pay these charges but refuse to do so because the charges are immoral!

1. Any family that can’t afford it, I am confident, can approach the pastor and ask for a waiver. We do this in our parish.
2. It’s not immoral to set a fee to offset expenses. Materials aren’t free.
3. When we pay for something, we’re more apt to put effort into it. We’ve noticed when we make things free in our parish…more people blow off the events as they see fit. Don’t ask me why this is so. I don’t know. But it’s quite consistent and dramatic. Free is treated with less commitment.
4. Another idea. Quit being so easily offended. Be quiet and volunteer to pay (anonymously) 3 person’s fees who can’t afford it.

That’d be an admirable act of charity, if it were sincerely and quietly done.

 

[Corki]

But if you’re bitter about doing it, always looking around at the others in the Church and questioning what they do or don’t do, you are not doing it in the spirit Christ intended. And if that bitterness leads to attaching fees to Sacraments… then what in the world are you doing there in the first place?

For the zillionth time, there are no fees attached to the Sacraments, only to faith formation classes!!

And where ever did you get the idea that attaching fees was driven by bitterness? It’s the exact opposite! By charging a nominal fee, we can offer classes to more students. Why would we want to do that if we were bitter or questioning?

Remember this thread was started by someone mad at the Church over the fees. Those of us working as volunteers aren’t bitter about anything.