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Horton
Guest
It all boils down to wanting to marry a good practicing Catholic man.
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jdavani
Guest
“Prioritizes my physical and mental wellbeing over creating new children or adopting embryos”
What do you mean by this? Are you really saying that you foresee a marriage without sex at all at some point?
What do you mean by this? Are you really saying that you foresee a marriage without sex at all at some point?
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Missed that one. Um, yeah, need to talk about the Primary Ends of Marriage.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
It’s another attempt to control the dialogue.
NFP demands a month by month conversation of whether a couple is ready for new life. That’s what NFP is by it’s very nature. However, the OP wants to always be first in this conversation–her needs wants and desires both physically and mentally can “overrule”. Which is a sly way around the true heart of NFP.
Kids are a two yes, one no sort of proposition. If one party is unwilling in NFP there simply is no sex during fertile times.
The OP’s list(s) point to a grave and deep misunderstanding of many Catholic principles and teachings.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
For anyone who is interested in oxytocin in non-intimate and non-human interactions this article from the Atlantic is interesting. Goats and oxytocin. Who knew?
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Horton
Guest
Once you have children, you are last. No getting around that. Once starting a family, you are never prioritized over anyone else.
Why would you even have this on your list? It is demeaning to any male spouse/father that one would have to “qualify” in order to take on baby care. Or put the dishes in the dishwasher, do a load of laundry, vacuum the rug…
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LadyLillian
Guest
LOL, that is what I first thought when I met them. My parents enjoy attending a Latin Mass on occasion that is offered near their home, and I have attended with them on several occasions. Actually, some of my friends go to Mass there. Almost all the women that belong to that Latin Mass community believe it is normally immoral for women to wear pants or wear pants in public, and will only wear them for horse-back-riding.
And obviously I wouldn’t date an Amish man, but I mentioned my Old Order Amish friend earlier–they truly do live like Little House on the Prairie! The women only wear dresses, and only in certain colors in certain cuts. So they are actually more conservative than Laura.
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LadyLillian
Guest
Nope. Thus their place on the list.
Agreed.
I certainly do not want to dominate him, want him to be obedient to me, stalk him, etc.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but those are all incredibly important, particularly the last one, so I’m keeping them.
I don’t see being open to adoption or respectful as being Catholic points. Non-Catholics also use NFP.
Good point
Men and women are equal in dignity, should be given equal opportunity, and should be free to be their best selves, regardless of if being themselves means breaking gender stereotypes.
I’d say those points describe good people of many faiths, including Catholics.
Thanks for your response!
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LadyLillian
Guest
I would use “concerned about” rather than “expecting”. Yes, that would be accurate for me, and I certainly would discuss it. I would never try to trap a man into a relationship he could easily find miserable–I would only marry him if he knew what he was getting into and still wanted to move forward, willingly not grudgingly. I want him to be happy and don’t want to take anything away from him.
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LadyLillian
Guest
I am 100% open to changing my mind about my marital hard limits within the context of a loving marriage. I don’t expect it, but hey, who knows? My priority is the two of us knowing where our hard limits are at the time of the wedding, and making sure we are able to whole-heartedly commit to the union with the knowledge that our hard limits may never change.
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LadyLillian
Guest
I struggle with a fear of childbirth/pregnancy and one of my worst marriage nightmares is being in a relationship where I am mentally or physically unready to conceive while my husband has decided he is done waiting for me to get over my issues and begins insisting we start trying. This point refers to marrying a man who would not try to coerce me into a pregnancy before I was ready. And implicit in this would be my fervent striving after a healthy perception of pregnancy if he decided he wanted to bring a baby into the world. It is my hope therapy will help. Granted, if giving birth wasn’t important to him, I would be more than happy to adopt our children. It does bother me, the thought of creating new lives while children already here starve, suffer abuse and neglect, wander the streets homeless, commit suicide for feeling so unloved.
Natural Family Planning entails refraining from sex at fertile points, so yes, at those times when we are not trying to conceive.
In other words, he always recognizes I am a person before I am an incubator. It’s a basic feminist principle.
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MichaelP3
Guest
This is an interesting part I feel very close to. I agree with you but I have seen many threads and posts on CAF that would answer this by
“If you are not ready to have a child then you are not ready to get married”
Again. I agree with you, just wondering where all those are now?
Regards
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LadyLillian
Guest
Because a wonderful boyfriend could be a less than competent babysitter.
Men can be fantastic, amazing, wonderful parents and homemakers. I think single dads are incredible. But just as some women really aren’t responsible with kids, so aren’t some men. I’m not concerned about ability or intention, rather follow through and over-all responsibility in these areas. If he says he will pick up the toddler from daycare ten times, and he only gets to the daycare on one of those occasions, we have a problem. If he is living at home, and he volunteers to his mom to organize his room by a certain deadline, and it’s not done four months after the deadline, should I be worried about how chore distribution will turn out in our marriage? If he takes my baby brother to the park while dating, and Mr, Boyfriend spends all his time talking to his friends he runs into there, keeping his eyes off the child he’s in charge of, that’s not safe, and I would be concerned. Obviously, everyone is human, we will both make some, even many mistakes, but chronic red warming flags are…well chronic red warning flags.
Honestly though, I would expect any person to pass this point with flying colors unless he demonstrates otherwise.
Certainly I would not keep a loving father from our child. Nor do I expect a man to get permission from me to do household chores. (
) I am talking here about choosing a mate who is generally able, willing and responsible when it comes to our parenting and home life, and am not talking about controlling a man who is already my spouse in regards to his home and children.
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LadyLillian
Guest
Thanks Michael! I have struggled with whether this is true, and as I see it, if I am willing to adopt, and am not using birth control, I am open to life, and could go ahead with a marriage. I expect a birth phobia would fall under the “grave cause” justification for NFP, especially if we were trying to overcome it.
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jdavani
Guest
if you aren’t ready for conceiving, maybe you shouldn’t be thinking of marriage until you get over this psychological hurdle. it’s not fair to your future spouse.
If the tables were turned and your partner had a phobia of being a father, he wouldn’t qualify according to your list.
If the tables were turned and your partner had a phobia of being a father, he wouldn’t qualify according to your list.
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LadyLillian
Guest
As I said, I would happily marry a man who didn’t want biological children.
If my partner had a fear of being a father, I would waive the “open to adoption” point, if he was willing to work on that phobia.
I don’t think it’s unfair to transparently seek a marriage partner who is in the same place I am with regards to readiness for children. If I meet a potential-boyfriend who knows he wants many biological children, and I am not in that same mind-frame at the time of our meeting, we simply won’t date.
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LadyLillian
Guest
I may never overcome it. Are you suggesting that would mean I am not called to ever marry?
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jdavani
Guest
If you are going to waive portions of your list, what’s the point in having a list?
My advice to you: you’re treating finding your spouse like buying a new car. You’re looking for certain features that you want based on what’s comfortable to you. As you said, you want a man who is in the same mind-frame as you on many issues, not just one. The catechism of the catholic church teaches that: “After the fall, marriage helps to overcome self-absorption, egoism, pursuit of one’s own pleasure, and to open oneself to the other, to mutual aid and to self-giving.”
It’s my opinion that your list, while made with well-intentions, won’t really help you find your spouse. Sometimes you just gotta meet people for the sake of meeting people. If a man was already perfect at the time of you meeting him, why would he be single? He’d probably be a priest or happily married.
In regards to what you just wrote on you never overcoming how you feel about conceiving, I don’t think you ought to marry. Here’s what the catechism teaches: Conjugal love involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter - appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands indissolubility and faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility.
I think you should just seek a therapist to work out that phobia now because it’s going to be painful for both you and your future spouse if you do get married later on.
I’m not saying any of this stuff to hurt you.
My advice to you: you’re treating finding your spouse like buying a new car. You’re looking for certain features that you want based on what’s comfortable to you. As you said, you want a man who is in the same mind-frame as you on many issues, not just one. The catechism of the catholic church teaches that: “After the fall, marriage helps to overcome self-absorption, egoism, pursuit of one’s own pleasure, and to open oneself to the other, to mutual aid and to self-giving.”
It’s my opinion that your list, while made with well-intentions, won’t really help you find your spouse. Sometimes you just gotta meet people for the sake of meeting people. If a man was already perfect at the time of you meeting him, why would he be single? He’d probably be a priest or happily married.
In regards to what you just wrote on you never overcoming how you feel about conceiving, I don’t think you ought to marry. Here’s what the catechism teaches: Conjugal love involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter - appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands indissolubility and faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility.
I think you should just seek a therapist to work out that phobia now because it’s going to be painful for both you and your future spouse if you do get married later on.
I’m not saying any of this stuff to hurt you.
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LadyLillian
Guest
Thanks for your perspective!
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jdavani
Guest
Except in marriage, our bodies are not our bodies. My body is no more mine than it would be my spouse’s.
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