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LadyLillian
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Shared body ownership is a part of marriage. (Although marital rape is not okay.) Shared body ownership does not equal being reduced down to an incubator.
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jdavani
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I agree wholeheartedly with what you’re saying about not wanting to be an incubator. That’s not what marriage is about. I think what you’re saying is you want to say is you don’t want your husband to use you. JPII talked at length about lust being a sin in marriage. But denying sex (because of your phobia of conceiving) is problematic in a marriage for both you and your husband because marriage requires you to be open to fertility. That’s all I’m saying.
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LadyLillian
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I currently am of the mindset that having sex without birth control and adopting children fulfills the open to children requirement. But I may be wrong.
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jdavani
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I think the key is that you’re willing to work on your phobia. The way you phrased what you wanted on your list did not imply what your position is now.
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LadyLillian
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It is an exception. The point, and the other points, are still very relevant to me. I could write the exception in parentheses.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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We’ve had threads on this before. It would do you well to search them.jdavani:
I currently am of the mindset that having sex without birth control and adopting children fulfills the open to children requirement. But I may be wrong.
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Edward_H
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Marriage - in the Catholic way of looking at things - requires total self donation. Total self gift. Total self-emptying.
Look at the Crucifix, and that’s the image of love perfectly drawn for marriage.
Once we “get over ourselves” and fully and completely accept this grandiose (in the best sense of the word) idea of marriage…agape love perfecting eros…then marriage becomes great fun and a great “work”.
The more love we put into each day, the more each day becomes in its own way very different. No day is really the same when we put great love into each moment of it.
So one question to ask…“do I trust God enough to say yes to a life of self-emptying love?”
Do I trust Him?
Can I abandon myself into His arms with His invitation to me to marry someone else?
Do I realize that if I say Yes in this abandoning way, that He will never leave me without the graces to “deal with the details” and hardships and joys? of married life?
Do I accept the challenge that I will become my spouse’s path to heaven, and that my own path to heaven is through my spouse? (in that order!!)
First the truth…the image of the Cross. Then our response, or faithful Yes. Let it be done to me according to Your word.
Look at the Crucifix, and that’s the image of love perfectly drawn for marriage.
Once we “get over ourselves” and fully and completely accept this grandiose (in the best sense of the word) idea of marriage…agape love perfecting eros…then marriage becomes great fun and a great “work”.
The more love we put into each day, the more each day becomes in its own way very different. No day is really the same when we put great love into each moment of it.
So one question to ask…“do I trust God enough to say yes to a life of self-emptying love?”
Do I trust Him?
Can I abandon myself into His arms with His invitation to me to marry someone else?
Do I realize that if I say Yes in this abandoning way, that He will never leave me without the graces to “deal with the details” and hardships and joys? of married life?
Do I accept the challenge that I will become my spouse’s path to heaven, and that my own path to heaven is through my spouse? (in that order!!)
First the truth…the image of the Cross. Then our response, or faithful Yes. Let it be done to me according to Your word.
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OraLabora
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The local Benedictine women are looking for new vocations.
Just kidding, but more seriously, I doubt this approach will result in marriage any time soon. I’m a male, and have been married almost 30 years, raised three kids with her. We’ve had our ups and downs, and mostly “made it up as we went along”. My wife is Anglican, I’m Catholic, but we were both more or less agnostic when we met and married she found the Anglicans first (she had never been baptized) and a couple of years later I came home to the faith I had been raised in. We had our marriage convalidated many years later, well after my return to the faith.
Based on my years of marriage, my list for a wife would be much simpler:
I also like to joke that I am a dog person, and I married a cat person, and thus she forced me to undergo a species-change operation
When I met her, I just sort of knew that SHE was the one… and I like to think she felt the same.
Marriage is something that one has to work at, and no amount of lists will get around that part, even if he perfectly matches all your criteria.
So here we are, 30 years later, empty nesters who actually ENJOY each other’s company, and travel, hike and bike together. We both pray, though differently. We’ve learned to emphasize the similarities between our Christian Churches, instead of argue about the differences.
Just kidding, but more seriously, I doubt this approach will result in marriage any time soon. I’m a male, and have been married almost 30 years, raised three kids with her. We’ve had our ups and downs, and mostly “made it up as we went along”. My wife is Anglican, I’m Catholic, but we were both more or less agnostic when we met and married she found the Anglicans first (she had never been baptized) and a couple of years later I came home to the faith I had been raised in. We had our marriage convalidated many years later, well after my return to the faith.
Based on my years of marriage, my list for a wife would be much simpler:
- Talks things out instead of using the silent treatment;
- Does not use sex as a weapon;
- Not passive-aggressive
- Can give up control from time to time i.e. doesn’t freak out if I load the dishwasher differently than she does.
I also like to joke that I am a dog person, and I married a cat person, and thus she forced me to undergo a species-change operation
When I met her, I just sort of knew that SHE was the one… and I like to think she felt the same.
Marriage is something that one has to work at, and no amount of lists will get around that part, even if he perfectly matches all your criteria.
So here we are, 30 years later, empty nesters who actually ENJOY each other’s company, and travel, hike and bike together. We both pray, though differently. We’ve learned to emphasize the similarities between our Christian Churches, instead of argue about the differences.
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TheLittleLady
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As children are one of the primary ends of marriage, than, someone who has a permanent intention against children is not called to marriage.
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starlady
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I just want to mention that when I was 20, the thought of being pregnant and going through labor honestly kind of freaked me out. I could never imagine myself as a mother and I didn’t understand my peers who couldn’t wait to have children.
Then I met my now-husband. Gradually, I began to picture myself having a future and a family with him. We were married at the beginning of July, and we are now joyfully expecting our first child. It’s been a totally different experience, and I am still a bit concerned about labor, but I already feel bonded to this tiny life within me. And that is a beautiful thing.
Adoption is a noble cause, and if one is able to do it, that is wonderful. Please don’t completely reject the possibility of biological children. You may change your mind in a few years, and/or if and when you meet your future spouse.
Then I met my now-husband. Gradually, I began to picture myself having a future and a family with him. We were married at the beginning of July, and we are now joyfully expecting our first child. It’s been a totally different experience, and I am still a bit concerned about labor, but I already feel bonded to this tiny life within me. And that is a beautiful thing.
Adoption is a noble cause, and if one is able to do it, that is wonderful. Please don’t completely reject the possibility of biological children. You may change your mind in a few years, and/or if and when you meet your future spouse.
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otjm
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I went over the list.
Guess what? St. Joseph died about 2,000 years ago, so he is not available.
I take it you are not ready right away to get married - “right away” being, oh, maybe in the next 50 years.
Some of your issues are important. Important enough to reject someone? Maybe yes, maybe no.
And if you are not ready to have children, you are not ready to marry. Not now, and not until you are ready. I have met any number of young people (that covers from 21 to 35), married, and childless. And I find them often subtly, but clearly, to be selfish, self centered individuals. Not saying you are; but then, I have not seen a list of your qualifications.
Yes, there are important things in a spouse. And then there are things we think are important, and then we grow up (often in a marriage) and find they really didn’t matter; or that they would be nice, but there are far more important things which we already have.
Marriage is a risk. One is always trusting the other; and you can find plenty of people in their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s who will tell you they are still learning things about their spouse they didn’t know over the last 30, 40, 50 or more years.
As in, you think you have a list, and the individual you seem to think fits it may or may not. Or golly - they might just change.
Marriage is one of the ways God has made for us to obtain salvation; and one of the primary tasks of marriage is assisting your partner in obtaining it - which is at least part of how you obtain it.
And it doesn’t matter diddly if they like dogs, or cats, or horses - or is allergic to all of them (as one of my daughters’ husband is - and he is an awesome spouse). A significant part of your list has nothing to do with helping your spouse obtain salvation.
And to tell you the truth, if I found someone I was interested in had a list, I would be inclined to do one of two things.
One would be to list some of their more obvious flaws ( which usually comes from point of view) and give it to them - with the idea that either they would put the list down and get real, or we would no longer be acquaintances (I use the term advisedly; you would only be my friend if you were willing to accept me as who I am).
The other would be to simply quietly depart, as I don’t deal well with “princesses” - which is a bit of how you are coming across to me.
Guess what? St. Joseph died about 2,000 years ago, so he is not available.
I take it you are not ready right away to get married - “right away” being, oh, maybe in the next 50 years.
Some of your issues are important. Important enough to reject someone? Maybe yes, maybe no.
And if you are not ready to have children, you are not ready to marry. Not now, and not until you are ready. I have met any number of young people (that covers from 21 to 35), married, and childless. And I find them often subtly, but clearly, to be selfish, self centered individuals. Not saying you are; but then, I have not seen a list of your qualifications.
Yes, there are important things in a spouse. And then there are things we think are important, and then we grow up (often in a marriage) and find they really didn’t matter; or that they would be nice, but there are far more important things which we already have.
Marriage is a risk. One is always trusting the other; and you can find plenty of people in their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s who will tell you they are still learning things about their spouse they didn’t know over the last 30, 40, 50 or more years.
As in, you think you have a list, and the individual you seem to think fits it may or may not. Or golly - they might just change.
Marriage is one of the ways God has made for us to obtain salvation; and one of the primary tasks of marriage is assisting your partner in obtaining it - which is at least part of how you obtain it.
And it doesn’t matter diddly if they like dogs, or cats, or horses - or is allergic to all of them (as one of my daughters’ husband is - and he is an awesome spouse). A significant part of your list has nothing to do with helping your spouse obtain salvation.
And to tell you the truth, if I found someone I was interested in had a list, I would be inclined to do one of two things.
One would be to list some of their more obvious flaws ( which usually comes from point of view) and give it to them - with the idea that either they would put the list down and get real, or we would no longer be acquaintances (I use the term advisedly; you would only be my friend if you were willing to accept me as who I am).
The other would be to simply quietly depart, as I don’t deal well with “princesses” - which is a bit of how you are coming across to me.
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Eliza10
Guest
Just some thoughts on birth phobia, just know its a natural process and its painful work, not just pain, like something is wrong. One thing i don’t like about birth is everyone shouting at you to push, which I asked in my birth plan not to have but everyone did anyway, because the have to feel they are helping. But your body will let you know when it needs to and you just will. I remember reading of a woman in a coma in a hsopital/nursinghome who was raped (by an aide) and got pregnant, and gave birth,l while in coma, because you see its a natural process you do’t even need to b e conscious for, let alone have peopel yell at you to push.
However, since you have a phobia all theeason in the world is not gong to help. There are real helps for phobias and one of them is EFTY - Emotional Freedom Technique You can read about it all o ver thenet and see how-to videos. Check it out on Dr. Mercola’s site, or elsewhere. You tap on accupressure points repeating a phrase, with the blanks you need filled into it: “Even thoughi am afraid of givignbirth,I deeply andcompletely ove and accept myself.” That would be the repeated phrase for you, and you would be stating a good trutyh, becuase that ishow God loves us, even though you have fears, faults and phobias, and we are to love others like this, but if we cannot love ourselves thus first, we are unlikely to be able to show this love to others.
Another new breakthrough i psychological healing Robert M. Williams Psyche-K. I watched his videos extensively and am convinced this is not new age as I was concerned it might be, but instead is a real break through in the science of the mind. (as to that, i also watched the video lectures of cell biologist Bruce Lipton). You might be interested in Bruce Lipton’s research that almost all fears and “I can’t” beliefs that hold us back are formed before the first 3 months of our birth, at our birth, in utero AND inherited from our mothers and grandmothers. This is scientifically based - you will have to listen to his lectures if you want to understand it more because I am not a scientist and I am not the one to explain it.
Saving the most important for last. Jesus heals minds. He wants to take what is broken in you and make it whole, if you want it. There are many healing ministries that target phobias, trauma, and PTSD, and it is worth praying about this, and then researching it, and listening for God’s direction.
Fears, debilitating beliefs, trauma and phobias don’t go away with time. They get worse. But they can be healed, permanently. All three things I told you about are quick and non-evasive and they really work.
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Eliza10
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I think giving the wishlist to God is best, saying, “Jesus, i trust in you.” God cares about all the desires of her heart, and He knows her heart and her life and He knows what are best for her. He knows all hearts and can lead her to who is right for her. When she finds the right one, she will know it. It will be nice to later see the list and see how God heard her and blessed her, and which ones just don’t matter any more, because God made them not matter.
Many years ago in college (when I had not yet dreamed I’d ever be Catholic), I was delaying being officially “born-again”. My heart wanted to give my life to Jesus, but I was afraid that if I did, He would want me to be a missionary in Africa, and I would have to live in a tent, and there would be big bugs and other creepy crawlies threatening me. When my devout Christian friend heard this, she told me that the way God works is if He wanted me to be a missionary in Africa, He would change my heart about it. I believed that. So I was able to go forward and commit.
I think it’s likewise with having children. She has a desire to marry, and she has this fear. She can trust God to work it out for her. (And I think she should prayerfully seek healing now, as I already suggested).
Many years ago in college (when I had not yet dreamed I’d ever be Catholic), I was delaying being officially “born-again”. My heart wanted to give my life to Jesus, but I was afraid that if I did, He would want me to be a missionary in Africa, and I would have to live in a tent, and there would be big bugs and other creepy crawlies threatening me. When my devout Christian friend heard this, she told me that the way God works is if He wanted me to be a missionary in Africa, He would change my heart about it. I believed that. So I was able to go forward and commit.
I think it’s likewise with having children. She has a desire to marry, and she has this fear. She can trust God to work it out for her. (And I think she should prayerfully seek healing now, as I already suggested).
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LadyLillian
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I know it wasn’t a compliment, but I have to say you made me smile. No one has called me a princess type in over ten years.
You made me remember the days when life was as simple as deciding to grow up and become Cinderella II.Thanks for your feedback!
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Bruised_Reed
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My thoughts on the list are similar to PPs. The list can be condensed (it has been) and fine tuned. One thought that occured to me was that there were a lot of no-brainers on the list.
Once the obvious, no-brainer, “duh list” is made, condense, edit and then deal with the real deal breakers and articulate what you mean by soemthing like “Can be at peace with some domestic disorganization.” Another problem with this list is how you decide to
something off. What if he’s doesn’t do that thing again? Does it become a 
?
The other thing the list might do is not let you trust your gut. A guy can off every thing on your list and just be a sociopath who has figured out your system. Although your timeline of “Has been my friend for at least 18 months before courtship” and “Has formally Defined The Relationship as Courting with me and has courted me for two years” would probably be a deterant because most cons can’t keep up a ruse that long. But can you remain chaste that long? Both of you. Unless you are asexual anyone who really floats your boat will put that to the test.
- Is not living a criminal lifestyle
- No current addiction to drugs, alcohol or gambling
- Is someone I feel safe spending time with
- Maintains cleanliness
- Maintains freshness (ex. Addresses body odor and foul breath)
- Free of certain painful diseases, esp those transferred in birth (case specific)
- Free of certain diseases that would prohibit bonding (case specific)
…and others.
Once the obvious, no-brainer, “duh list” is made, condense, edit and then deal with the real deal breakers and articulate what you mean by soemthing like “Can be at peace with some domestic disorganization.” Another problem with this list is how you decide to
something off. What if he’s doesn’t do that thing again? Does it become a ?The other thing the list might do is not let you trust your gut. A guy can
off every thing on your list and just be a sociopath who has figured out your system. Although your timeline of “Has been my friend for at least 18 months before courtship” and “Has formally Defined The Relationship as Courting with me and has courted me for two years” would probably be a deterant because most cons can’t keep up a ruse that long. But can you remain chaste that long? Both of you. Unless you are asexual anyone who really floats your boat will put that to the test.
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LadyLillian
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Thanks for the great reflections Bruised_Reed!
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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Actually–I think that the time thing isn’t always going to reveal a true sociopath. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “but I dated 3/5/8 years and I never saw it coming” True idiopathic mental illness is about manipulation and satisfaction. It runs outside of our sense of time because it is a warped sense of accomplishment.The other thing the list might do is not let you trust your gut. A guy can
A general con, however, could probably manage 2 years but not much longer.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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I think this is the general consensus of those who have been married even a few years. The list is impractical.Wow! 300 posts and we haven’t gotten her to realize that she will be a spinster with that list. I told my wife of 39 years about “the list” and she laughed out loud.
One parting piece of advice: If you use “Lady Lillian” as your handle on online dating sites, it will make you sound like a dominatrix and conjure up images of leather corsets. But given your list, you might just keep that name as a warning!
Even those who aren’t married see the folly. But it is the OP’s perogative to create such rules for herself and since she is not involving others in her fantacy it only serves to harm her.
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Bruised_Reed
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True. My mom dated a year and was engaged for a year and said she wished she had waited 2 years. However, she said it wasn’t until the baby shower when she was going to have me that she realized what kind of man he was; that was about 3 years after they were married.
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