Sspx

[pnewton]

Are you really trying to say that the Archbishop had no problems with Vatican II other than the Novus Ordo Mass? Of course Archbishop Lefebvre had doctrinal problems with VII from the start, that is why the Society was founded in the first place.

Of course he had a lot of other areas of disagreement. That was not my point. His justification for his schismatic act was specifcally the preservation of the TLM, not for the preservation of other traditional doctrines in the say he saw fit. He had the right to propugate those without any action.

Yes, no his fate in the hands of God, what ever that was.

 

[fbl9]

There is no such spirit… repentance is FREEWILL. That is what God expects of us. His gifts are faith, charity, chastity, miracles, etc. etc. But repentance is of the person’s choice.

but that choice of freewill is indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit…man alone can not by his own freewill truly repent in the eyes of God.sincere contrition is not of man but of God the Holy Spirit,in conjunction of man’s freewill…

 

[ProVobis]

I am also trouble that even know there are those within the SSPX that refuse to humble themselves and come back to full communion within the Church.

Many of those ordained by the SSPX bishops have “come back to full communion.” Not all of them (or their ex-parishioners) are totally happy about it either. Or at least not before the SP went into effect. On the surface it would seem that conditions have been improved where local bishops would be happy to take some of the priests on board but I’m not sure this is true of all bishops. There still seems to be a lot of resistance to the EF and more specifically, to the SSPX. It’s almost as if there will be a lifelong stigma against them.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

There still seems to be a lot of resistance to the EF and more specifically, to the SSPX. It’s almost as if there will be a lifelong stigma against them.

Then we should pray for the Bishops to open there Hearts to What the Holy Father hs said in regard to the EF never being forbidden. Also that there be no Stigma of or on. the SSPX. One thought It could one day become a Order if they were to humble and prsent themselves properly. Just a thought.

 

[Claudius]

I’m not sure if SSPX is Catholic or not so i put it here. My first question is what is SSPX? I have a prayer from a SSPX website. Is it ok to pray it? It’s a prayer asking for the grace to become a priest. I hesitated when i saw a name at the bottom of the page i was not familiar with. Thankyou for the answers.

Other posters here have given some pretty good discriptions of SSPX already but I just thought that I would pipe in for just a sec. They do consider themselves to be Catholic but the actual Authorities of the Catholic Church consider them schismatic and some of them, not just Bishops have neen excommunicated by breaking Cannon Law. They also admit sedevacantist to Communion which not only is a schismatic act but a sacralige against the blessed sacrement.

Here is what it boils down to, they are Cafateria Catholics but choose a different set of offering from the Cafateria than the liberal Catholics. They want the hard stuff only and want to exclude other things that they don’t like. This is the same as the liberal catholics just in reverse.

Set yourself, all of us, right and follow the one True Church and we will have no problems. We need to pray for the SSPX members to return to full Catholicism before they become the next “eastern orthodox” like group.

 

[SFD]

Of course he had a lot of other areas of disagreement. That was not my point. His justification for his schismatic act was specifcally the preservation of the TLM, not for the preservation of other traditional doctrines in the say he saw fit. He had the right to propugate those without any action.

Yes, no his fate in the hands of God, what ever that was.

This is wrong. There is plenty of evidence, and it is indisputable, that the questions the Archbishop had were doctrinal and not only concerning the liturgy…although they do overlap.

Here is Lefebvre in 1966, one year after the council:

SFD:

And please read what Archbishop Lefebvre described only one year after the Council closed, “In a more or less general way, when the Council has introduced innovations, it has unsettled the certainty of truths taught by the authentic Magisterium of the Church as unquestionably belonging to the treasure of Tradition.” And, “In fact, Rome is no longer the unique and necessary Magistra Veritatis [Teacher of Truth].”

Also,

pnewton:

He had the right to propugate those without any action.

So it all just a matter of opinion? Lefebvre cared about the Church…and all Catholics who were being lead into error by these docrtinal errors and those who propogated them. He was not just looking for a side chapel in the modernist “Church”.

SFD

 

[pnewton]

He was not just looking for a side chapel in the modernist “Church”.

There is no modernist church. There is the One Holy Catholic Church, which you are in or out. The vicar and protector of the Church is Pope Benedict XVI, who succeded Pope John Paul II. At no time was Lefebvre chosen to have the authority of that postition, thanks be to God.

 

[SFD]

There is no modernist church. There is the One Holy Catholic Church, which you are in or out. The vicar and protector of the Church is Pope Benedict XVI, who succeded Pope John Paul II. At no time was Lefebvre chosen to have the authority of that postition, thanks be to God.

You’re arguing against fact again, newton.

Is the Anglican church inside or outside? Is the Luthern church inside or outside? The answer prior to Vatican II would be a straightfoward no.

What constitutes a member of the Catholic Church? It’s been defined…but you ignore it. Why?

SFD

 

[Auntie_M]

Just to add a little…Pius X was NOT a likeable pope. He participated in things such as the “Sodalitium Pianum”, (a secret “thought police”, also called the Sodality of Saint Pius V. It operated undercover, (codename Sapiniere’). A Monsignor Humberto Benigni supplied Pius X with daily reports (on moderism) and Pius supplied Sapiniere with money.

Pius X’s way of Catholics achieving holiness was loving the Pope and by loving him it was to be expressed in total obedience to the Pope instructions.

One movement existed in Pius X’s time was the “integristes” with their group called the Action Francaise. This was an extreme right wing group believe that all the ills of the church stemmed from the abandonment of Catholic Religious practices. Their leader, an atheist, Carles Maurras, was praise by Pius X as a “defender of the Holy See”. Pius tried to appoint Bishops for France who were sympathic to this group.

Does all this sound familiar…
Pius expected total obedience to the Pope, but that is NOT what the SSPX is doing.

The “movement” believing the ills of the Church were…

Taken from "An Illustrated History of The Popes, Saint Peter to John Paul ll, by Michael Walsh.(Nihil obstat 1979)

The SSPX is not what they say they are, please if you go, quit…

 

[fbl9]

SFD:
so then much sparks over the same thing …so far we agree then…i hold that those on the outside indeed are other christian denominations…but they are not in the same boat as those who have never heard the gospel…same water different boat…can you specifically say which doctrines have alledgely changed…if any…

 

[Claudius]

Just to add a little…Pius X was NOT a likeable pope.

That shouldn’t matter.

Pius X’s way of Catholics achieving holiness was loving the Pope and by loving him it was to be expressed in total obedience to the Pope instructions.

I don’t buy that. He insisted on holiness and I agree with that.

One movement existed in Pius X’s time was the “integristes” with their group called the Action Francaise. This was an extreme right wing group believe that all the ills of the church stemmed from the abandonment of Catholic Religious practices. Their leader, an atheist, Carles Maurras, was praise by Pius X as a “defender of the Holy See”. Pius tried to appoint Bishops for France who were sympathic to this group.

I will look into this but Catholics have no business having any business with athiest except to convert them.

Does all this sound familiar…
Pius expected total obedience to the Pope, but that is NOT what the SSPX is doing.

You are competely correct here. SSPX just want to do really whatever they want and are somehow shocked when the Church tells them that they can’t just do whatever they want.

The SSPX is not what they say they are, please if you go, quit…

I agree with this. You should not go to a schismatic group for sacraments, not to the SSPX or the eastern unorthodox, or the oriental unorthodox unless in dire need. Not liking how Mass is done at your parish is not dire need. About to die and needing to confess is dire need. It would actually be far more acceptable to go to a Nestorian priest for sacramants than to a SSPX because they are all about to be in full communion with the Church again. All the theological issues have been resolved with them and they accecpt the Catholic faith in full, which the SSPX do not.

We should keep in mind that reunion with the Assyrians is comming about because of patience, charity and most of all prayer. They prayed for us and we prayed for them. That is how it must also happen with the SSPX. We must be good to them and at the same time stand up firmly for the truth. We must not allow the hatred they preach for the Church to affect our goodwill twards them.

One great way to really get at them is to support the SFSP. That is the Priestly Fraternaty of St. Peter. We should support them and give them recognition in all places. The road home is in this set before the SSPX and it is only their freewill that holds them away from Christ.

 

[Claudius]

Just a small opinion of mine but a Christian is one who a Bishop admits into the Catholic church. A non Christian is anyone who has never been accepted by the Catholic Church or who has been expelled by the Catholic Church in accord with their actions.

Protestants do not belong to the Catholic Church. So they must not be… you guessed it. We can lump with protestants the muslims since they also came out of Christianity but no longer have bishops or Eucharist.

The schismatic churches that do have bishops are in a special situations as they do have bishops but they are in a deficient state. They do not hold the complete Christian faith as taught to us by Lord Jesus and repeated by his Holy Church. Who are the schismatic Churches? We have the Assyrians as on group. We have the Coptics, Armenians, Syriacs and Ethiopians as another group. We have the Greeks and Slavs as yet another group. Then we have the SSPX. Cannonically, there is not much difference between them. They want to put themselves higher then the Church and from that, fall.

Considering that the so called Old Catholics have been co-consecrating with Anglicans who have no valid orders, I seriously question the validity of Old Catholic Orders as they currently exist. I pray the SSPX do not become like the Old Catholics but they are well on their way to having null orders as well.

 

[pnewton]

Considering that the so called Old Catholics have been co-consecrating with Anglicans who have no valid orders, I seriously question the validity of Old Catholic Orders as they currently exist. I pray the SSPX do not become like the Old Catholics but they are well on their way to having null orders as well.

Everytime they reject the gracious overtures of the Holy See, they take one more step in that direction.

 

[saint_rafael]

Just to add a little…Pius X was NOT a likeable pope

You know you are talking about Saint Pius X, the last Pope to be canonized in over 100 years.
The great defender of Church Orthodoxy who tried to warn the Church about the synthesis of all heresies. The same Modernism that would destroy the Church later that century. The great Pope of the Eucharist who instituted so many great reforms for the benefit of Catholicism.

 

[pnewton]

The same Modernism that would destroy the Church later that century.

The Church has been destroyed? Has anyone notified Pope Benedict XVI of this?

 

[SFD]

Considering that the so called Old Catholics have been co-consecrating with Anglicans who have no valid orders, I seriously question the validity of Old Catholic Orders as they currently exist. I pray the SSPX do not become like the Old Catholics but they are well on their way to having null orders as well.

The Anglican orders are and have always been null and void as declared by Pope Leo XIII in Apostolicae Curae.

Since the Old Catholics had valid orders and they mixed with the invalid Anglicans there was a problem. Who are you suggesting that the SSPX is mixing ordinations with that may suggest invalidity?

SFD

 

[nbjayme]

again you don’t read do you the words you quoted aren’t mine but copied from the sources listed in the postand those sources were printed long before V2.

You used the document to miquote what it really means. Are you paying attention now?

.as for calling you a clown take a look back and you will see you called me a clown too.

I don’t think I called you a clown (I challenge you). Circus doesn’t need to mean clown… You judge too much.

…i think you are the one who is confused…baltimore catechism explained states the same things i have posted this was printed first in 1891 reprinted in 1921…are you saying the Holy Spirit doesn’t convict one of thier sins???that God give salvic grace to man because of a man’s own merit…

Who is “theirs”?

God giveth the grace and men is to Respond to that grace. Salvation is not Faith alone…

One is saved because God made the first move. So man should not boast of his works because it is God who decided to open the doors to salvation towards a person.

And, we are judge of how well we respond to God’s grace — Works… Read St. James

And oh… do these to the least of your brethren…

**
are you saying the Holy Spirit doesn’t convict one of thier sins???
**

Read the catechism back and i think there is a statement about mortal sin.

 

[SFD]

clauduis:

The schismatic churches that do have bishops are in a special situations as they do have bishops but they are in a deficient state. They do not hold the complete Christian faith as taught to us by Lord Jesus and repeated by his Holy Church. Who are the schismatic Churches? We have the Assyrians as on group. We have the Coptics, Armenians, Syriacs and Ethiopians as another group. We have the Greeks and Slavs as yet another group. Then we have the SSPX. Cannonically, there is not much difference between them. They want to put themselves higher then the Church and from that, fall.

The schismatic churches are not particular Churches. They are not members of the Mystical Body as taught by Pope Pius XII in the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi. They have valid orders and may be approached for the sacraments by Catholics only in danger of death. They do not, however, has apostolic sucession nor are they sucessors to the Apostles. They have no jurisdiction in the Church as they are not sent by the Church.

SFD

 

[nbjayme]

schismatic act was specifcally the preservation of the TLM, not for the preservation of other traditional doctrines in the say he saw fit. He had the right to propugate those without any action.

not for the preservation of other Traditional Doctrines???

Uncharitable statements from you pnewton. Read the discourse of Archbishop Lefebvre… it’s was not only about the TLM…

You insist on your own misjudged information.

 

[nbjayme]

His justification for his schismatic act was specifcally the preservation of the TLM, not for the preservation of other traditional doctrines in the say he saw fit. He had the right to propugate those without any action.

pnewton,

Do you have even a conscience to assert false claims…
and yet you consider yourself to be part of the Church…
Must you present lies to forward your cause?

Marcel Lefebvre’s reason for consecration is not just about the TLM

sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Episcopal-Consecration.htm

It seems to me, my dear brethren, that I am hearing the voices of all these Popes - since Gregory XVI, Pius IX, Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI, Pius XII - telling us: “Please, we beseech you, what are you going to do with our teachings, with our predications, with the Catholic Faith? Are you going to abandon it? Are you going to let it disappear from this earth? Please, please, continue to keep this treasure which we have given you. Do not abandon the faithful, do not abandon the Church! Continue the Church! Indeed, since the Council, what we condemned in the past the present Roman authorities have embraced and are professing. How is it possible? We have condemned them: Liberalism, Communism., Socialism, Modernism, Sillonism. All the errors which we have condemned are now professed, adopted and supported by the authorities of the Church. Is it possible? Unless you do something to continue this Tradition of the Church which we have given to you, all of it shall disappear. Souls shall be lost.”