Staying free from feminist lies

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I agree that this trend is a positive one and shows a change in the historical misconception that males are inherently more logical and scientific than females, however, this change among the elite doesn’t necessarily mean that all the work is done in the greater population, especially since there’s a pretty good chance that this change may have been helped along artificially through programs that specifically encourage the selection of a certain percentage of female students. As Edmundson points out, he’s experienced the deliberate favoring of women in his study of the sciences and employment. Most likely, that was done in order to encourage more women in the field.
 
In the US, there are far more women than men in college programs in general, though I don’t know that I buy that it’s due to manual labor being “sexier” and women being more attracted to men who can’t afford to support their family.
 
Allegra said:
In the US, there are far more women than men in college programs in general, though I don’t know that I buy that it’s due to manual labor being “sexier” and women being more attracted to men who can’t afford to support their family.
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The same applies in Europe. The general read of that fact is two-fold:

1ºA difference in perception of independence (!) that guaranteeing a woman (or daughters) independence tends to be seen as “complete independence” the necessity to achieve a degree of independence that has her relying on no one.

2ºThe perception that a boy will do alright even without college education, whilst a girl to do alright can’t do without a college education. [I frequently find myself telling students of lesser academic success that they will do alright as long as they get a job and have will to work.]
 
ewohdrol said:
A reminder that it was only very recently in history women were even allowed to study maths and sciences.
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What do you mean by “very recently”???

In the 1970s the best student in my maths and science classes was a young woman, who went on to study biology at Oxford.

In the 1960’s in my elementary school girls did the same core subjects as boys.

In the 1950s my mother competed in an open examination for a scholarship to study university physics, and was successful. There, she soon realised she wasn’t smart enough to make it to the top level in physics and changed to medicine (still on a scholarship), which she took to enthusiastically. I’ve never heard one complaint from her about being impeded as a woman from entering science.

Possibly the US was behind Australia in the 1970’s, 60’s and 50’s… 🤣

Going back further, I’ve heard of prominent women scientists over several centuries. Most notably Marie Curie (two Nobel prizes), but also mathematicians, biologists, archaeologists…


So, when was this “very recent” era that women were not allowed to study science?
 
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jlc2k2 said:
But if we were to teach science in those examples AS WELL AS in cooking, gardening, and other more traditional girl interests, kids would see that science is gender neutral. Something that can be applied and loved across the board.
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I actually agree with this. I have learnt so much about chemistry just from reading up about skincare and it’s actually interesting, lol!

I was from a girls’ school so thankfully we never had that problem. However my friend from a mixed school had a different experience where science subjects were taught with heroes and stereotypically masculine things, while subjects like literature were taught from a more feminine angle (using fairytales and rom coms). All of us did well at the end though. Asians pressure both boys and girls to do well in Stem 🙂
 
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Oh please! You’ve just given a few outstanding examples.

The vast majority of women even as recent as the 70s were not even encouraged to complete schooling.

And i am Australian. My mother wasn’t allowed to keep her job because she was married. Woman certainly were not encouraged to be scientists especially married ones.
 
That is unfortunate (and hard to believe) that she couldn’t keep her job as a married woman, but I’ve never been to Australia so I don’t know how life works there. Here in the US, and in my home country in South America, there were numerous women in my family in science related fields, stretching back into the 1910’s, maybe further back too. One aunt graduated in the top 10 of her class from medical school in 1942. My mother was a medical researcher (graduated 1959) and is actually the reason we immigrated to the US. She got a terrific job at a major university hospital in the 1970’s. Most of the doctors she worked with were married women. Most had multiple children. My father had some family already in the US. One cousin (female) was a pharmacist, another (female) was an environmental engineer. His niece was studying aerospace engineering in the 1970’s and one of her professors was also a woman.

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla was a doctor (I think a pediatrician) and married mother in the 1950’s and 1960’s. As mentioned before, Madame Curie (my mother’s inspiration) was extremely well regarded as far back as the early 1900’s and she too was a married mother.

I also am unsure that the gender pay gap is accurate. My mom always made more money than my dad (and that was in the 1960’s through her retirement in the 1990’s in two different countries), and many of the married men I know today make less than their wives do. It is absolutely illegal in the US to not receive equal pay for equal jobs. If an employer is in violation of the law that needs to be addressed through legal channels.
 
The vast majority of data are presented in headcounts (HC), which are the total number of persons employed
in R&D. This includes staff employed both full-time and part-time. The regional averages for the share of
female researchers (based on available data only) for 2015 are:

 28.8% for World
 39.8% for Arab States
 39.5% for Central and Eastern Europe
 48.1% for Central Asia
 23.4% for East Asia and the Pacific
 45.4% for Latin America and the Caribbean
 32.3% for North America and Western Europe
 18.5% for South and West Asia
 31.3% for Sub-Saharan Africa

From UNESCO.

Numerous studies have found that women in STEM fields publish less, are paid less for their research and do not progress as far as men in their careers

Also from UNESCO.

Sounds like your family have some wonderful examples of educated females. Don’t let your anecdotal ecidence cloud the actual reality however.

And considering you don’t believe me regarding not working once married see the link. All Australian banks had the same policy.

 
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There are many reasons that women publish less, don’t progress as far, and therefore are paid less. Most have nothing to do with their gender. Women who choose to continue working when they have children often opt for extended time off during the early years, and many others opt to take reduced work load and/or hours. These are lifestyle choices. Lifestyle choices carry consequences with them. Men who decide to become stay at home Fathers or the “primary parent” during the early years face the exact same consequences to their careers.

The fact that fewer women have held STEM related jobs has as much to do with a lack of desire historically as anything else. I am a kindergarten teacher. There are very few men that hold jobs or degrees in early childhood education. That isn’t due to discrimination. Historically women tended to be attracted to fields that made motherhood an easier prospect and men were attracted to fields that paid well. That isn’t discrimination. Women who followed alternate career paths (like my mom) have done so successfully for many generations. They accepted that they would have to make choices that were different than the women who either stayed home (which actually was rare!) or had more traditional “female” jobs. That is what seems to make many people upset. The fact that we all must choose what we are willing to deal with in order to have both a career and a family. But men DO have to choose those things as well, and more often men are opting to be the at home or primary parent.

It truly is lifestyle choices that need to be addressed before marriage and continued to discuss through the years. And they are choices that each couple must make. They aren’t unique to women in STEM careers.
 
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My grandmother was a teacher in the thirties. She had to quit working when she had her first child and went back when all her children were grown.
My aunt went to law school in the sixties. She got in but had to deal with hostile professors and being the only woman in the department but the secretary. She left.
In the fifties my doctor was a woman whose office was in her home. People thought she should not be working because her husband had a good job.
I grew up in the age when many jobs were not open to women. I am glad things have changed.
 
Clementine14 said:
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Diamond93:
All they have to do is ask their husbands for help…not that hard.
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This is hilarious. Many men (including my husband who is generally wonderful and a good dad) do not “notice” all of the things that need to be done. Men are not children who should need to be told what to help with all the time. It is a fact that women, even women who work full time outside the home, are the ones doing most of the household tasks. I should not have to remind my husband to help around the house (that is another task). You might want to reevaluate your simplistic view of the way marriage and family works.
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This is hilarious! Your husband is doing the work which brings in the money which keeps you from doing an equally remunerative job. Yet you expect him to “notice all the things which need to be done”. Well, he’s noticing the most important things of all - putting a roof over your heads and meals on the table. Come back to us when you are doing that.
“Mi_Rose said:
My grandmother was a teacher in the thirties. She had to quit working when she had her first child and went back when all her children were grown.
My aunt went to law school in the sixties. She got in but had to deal with hostile professors and being the only woman in the department but the secretary. She left.
In the fifties my doctor was a woman whose office was in her home. People thought she should not be working because her husband had a good job.
I grew up in the age when many jobs were not open to women. I am glad things have changed.
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My great grandfather was a coal miner. I don’t know how smart he was, but I suspect he would have changed it for a safer, more comfortable job, with a working life past fifty.
 
Mi_Rose said:
My grandmother was a teacher in the thirties. She had to quit working when she had her first child and went back when all her children were grown.
My aunt went to law school in the sixties. She got in but had to deal with hostile professors and being the only woman in the department but the secretary. She left.
In the fifties my doctor was a woman whose office was in her home. People thought she should not be working because her husband had a good job.
I grew up in the age when many jobs were not open to women. I am glad things have changed.
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My great grandfather was a coal miner. I don’t know how smart he was, but I suspect he would have changed it for a safer, more comfortable job, with a working life past fifty.
 
The women who had to work in the fifties had few options for jobs. I bet some of them would have changed places with him. Men had limited options then too.
Many men died in their fifties then. It didnt matter what job they had
My point was that I am glad things have changed
 
Mi_Rose said:
The women who had to work in the fifties had few options for jobs. I bet some of them would have changed places with him.
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My mother actually commented on this. She worked as a nurse for the miners in the early 1960’s, where she was paid less than them. She emphatically said that she wouldn’t change places with them.
 
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Edmundus1581 said:
This is hilarious! Your husband is doing the work which brings in the money which keeps you from doing an equally remunerative job. Yet you expect him to “notice all the things which need to be done”. Well, he’s noticing the most important things of all - putting a roof over your heads and meals on the table. Come back to us when you are doing that.
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Excuse me? I work in paid employment too. I am a college professor. So yes sir, I am also providing monetarily for my family and I do in fact expect my husband to notice when the dishes are piling up in the sink.
 
As you admit, men had fewer options as well. It wasn’t so much about gender as it was lifestyle choices. Would it have been better for a young mother to be in the mines? Most people can see that it is better for a pregnant/nursing mom to not have a job where she may not return to the home once she leaves for work.

My mom who worked very hard made it clear to us growing up that although any job was open and possible, the career choices we made in life would have an impact on the type of home life we had. We would need to tailor our choices towards our desires and not make rash, emotional decisions. She married the man she did because he was willing to support her choices and provide support for her during the rough times. Mom made job selections based on which job provided her with the opportunities she felt were best suited to her primary vocation (marriage and motherhood). Dad made his decisions to remain in job fields that allowed for him to “follow” mom when we moved and pick up the slack when mom had to work extended periods.

Women often FEEL more trapped than we are. Historically it has been more difficult to find men that were willing to support wife’s career goals, but honestly most women also tend to desire more time at home with their children once they are born. In generations past, most people were able to realize “having it all” tended to be a huge lie—for both sexes. We all are faced with decisions, but more recent generations don’t want to have to decide.
 
Don’t be rude…

It’s everyone’s job to clean up the house (kids included). We should help when one is having a rough and tiring day or whatever, but the wife (or husband, in some families) shouldn’t be doing most of the work all of the time just because the other is earning more money.

She has already said that even women who work full time tend to do more household work. And SAHMs can be swamped as their jobs can be physically demanding with the kids. Not to bring up the obvious fact that more money doesn’t necessarily equate to a more tiring job too.

People in general need to take some responsibility to look after themselves and their house instead of relying on someone else to do most of the work tbh. I have been cleaning ever since I had the motor skills to do it, lol. It was always the family’s responsibility. How it’s divided changes from time to time based on the time we have, our current level of energy, but we were always taught we each had a responsibility to make sure the house is clean.
 
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There have always been female coal miners. It is not a job that appealed to most women for a reason, and it is not a job that currently appeals to many men either.
 
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