Strong Desire to Attend Mass, But Not Catholic

[jmcrae]

Oh, interesting. Thank you for sharing. I suspect something like that is going on with my friend too. She’s very adamantly pro-choice. I’ve always been sort of “on the fence” about it but leaning towards being pro-life… I never felt it was my right to judge, yet I don’t think its right somehow… Also, being the child of a mentally ill mother, I often think it would have been easy for some social worker or doctor to convince my mother to have aborted ME. In my opinion, I am a prime example of an “unwanted” child, who the pro-choice movement would say should have been aborted “for my own good”…

Yeah, I know - have you ever noticed that “for your own good” usually involves someone else’s convenience, and isn’t actually all that good for you?

I read a statistic many, many years ago, that suggested that the vast majority of us arrived on the earth without an actual invitation from our mothers.

Thanks, I really enjoyed it, and it feels right to me, at least for now. I am trying to be open about it in any event.

[off topic]

Oh and I see you are from Calgary. I visited Calgary once, its beautiful and a very clean city.

Thank you - yes, we go to great lengths to try to make sure it stays clean. As a matter of fact, throughout the spring we are having several clean-up days, where we send the kids out from the schools to pick up all the garbage in their areas, and I noticed that the street sweepers are also already out, getting the stuff up off the roads.

We also don’t have a real high tolerance for litterbugs, either. It is a $500.00 fine, to drop paper or gum on a public sidewalk, and a $1,000.00 fine to drop a cigarette or a used condom, or to spit, since these are considered to be public health hazards.

If everyone does their little bit, it actually doesn’t take much to keep the place looking clean and tidy.

[/off topic]

 

[chewchoo]

Oh thanks I’ve never heard of it, but I will look it up. I would never judge her, we are very good friends and I’m no angel myself… but she should know this??? We really are very close friends. I’m disappointed if she thinks that. But again, I’m just going to wait a bit and see how it goes, give her some space for now. If she doesn’t contact me for a few days I might send her an email just to let her know there are no hard feelings.

i’m sure you won’t judge her either, but maybe she fears that she is loosing the pre-Catholic susan, and the post-Catholic susan will be more judgemental. i don’t know, i’m just speculating here… does your friend have a past association with the Catholic church? sadly, many people just think its a big, bad church that wants to squash their personal freedoms (which is so far from the truth)

 

[Susan_Calvin]

i’m sure you won’t judge her either, but maybe she fears that she is loosing the pre-Catholic susan, and the post-Catholic susan will be more judgemental. i don’t know, i’m just speculating here… does your friend have a past association with the Catholic church? sadly, many people just think its a big, bad church that wants to squash their personal freedoms (which is so far from the truth)

Yeah I don’t know… she wasn’t raised any religion really, her parents were non-practicing. Christian background I think, but not Catholic. She was quite well off growing up, not like me in the slightest… we’re kind of opposites in that respect. We met in college.

Anyhow, I hope we can mend fences I really feel badly about it.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

Thank you - yes, we go to great lengths to try to make sure it stays clean. As a matter of fact, throughout the spring we are having several clean-up days, where we send the kids out from the schools to pick up all the garbage in their areas, and I noticed that the street sweepers are also already out, getting the stuff up off the roads.

We also don’t have a real high tolerance for litterbugs, either. It is a $500.00 fine, to drop paper or gum on a public sidewalk, and a $1,000.00 fine to drop a cigarette or a used condom, or to spit, since these are considered to be public health hazards.

If everyone does their little bit, it actually doesn’t take much to keep the place looking clean and tidy.

Oh wow that’s really amazing. I guess I wasn’t hallucinating when I thought it was clean!

 

[grandfather]

Yeah I don’t know… she wasn’t raised any religion really, her parents were non-practicing. Christian background I think, but not Catholic. She was quite well off growing up, not like me in the slightest… we’re kind of opposites in that respect. We met in college.

Anyhow, I hope we can mend fences I really feel badly about it.

You did not do anything wrong or offensive. If a friend of yours came to you and said she was going to become a Buddhist would you be personally offended? Would you end your friendship? Ever wonder why the newly discovered virtue of “tolerance” is a one way street?

 

[Susan_Calvin]

You did not do anything wrong or offensive.

Thanks… I was feeling a bit guilty earlier, but I thought about it and you are right, I didn’t do anything wrong. I called the priest too, as I was pretty upset about it. He said something along the same lines, not my fault or my problem, though I should pray for her if I felt so inclined.

f a friend of yours came to you and said she was going to become a Buddhist would you be personally offended? Would you end your friendship?

No I wouldn’t. Its none of my business, that’s my attitude. Even if I felt something was wrong or harmful, I would choose my words carefully if and when I confronted them about it…

Ever wonder why the newly discovered virtue of “tolerance” is a one way street?

I’m not sure what you mean? Can you explain?

Anyhow thank you your perspective on it.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not sure what you mean?

In that a Catholic or other Christian would be arrested for attacking a homosexual, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or an atheist, but it is perfectly okay for them to attack Catholics and other Christians.

 

[cdanison]

Susan,
God is calling you, and the Holy Spirit is really working in your life.
You have received fantastic advice from all the above. By all means, run, don’t walk, to meet your God. He is waiting for you!

I will be praying for you!

 

[ez3714]

Yes I agree… something is up with her. I do care about her. We really are very close friends so I feel badly. In her “tirade” she mentioned something about abortion and its got me wondering if maybe she had one and never told me about it… who knows though. I’m just waiting for her to calm down and hopefully give me another call.

Ah. Yet more proof we’re living in Wierdsville. I usually pray the Chaplet during lunch-hour at 3 a-m, but today it was at Noon as the conclusion to prayers at an abortion clinic. I had just finished the Glorious Mysteries which conclude with the Grand Reunion of Jesus, Mary and Joseph, and I contemplated the Grand Reunions still possible for the women and children in the building a few feet away, and…

…let’s just say I’m glad it was raining.

She - and they - can still have mercy and can still have peace.

 

[CSUNGerrie]

I am so happy you had a good conversation. I always remember you when I pay (as I think many other members do). This sounds like a great begging.

I dont know what to make of your friends reaction. I agree with some of the other posters, she sounds either hurt or jaded from a past experience with the church. I am sorry she had such a bad reaction. I guess your experience with your friend reminds me of the words of our Lord in John 15:
**If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.
**
Meditate on these words, and on why the world did what it did when it crucified our Lord.
What you said about your friend is very sad. There is no love in putting someone in such an ultimatum. It sorta reminded me of this book by C.S. Lewis called Till We Have Faces. In the book, there are two princesses Psyche and Orual. One day, the younger sister Psyche, must be given to the gods and although the older sister Orual is sadden, Psych is strangely conferred. Such longing was a part of Psyche’s being throughout her life. From the beginning, Orual reports, she “was half in love with the Mountain. . . . ‘When I’m big,’ she said, ‘I will be a great, great queen, married to the greatest king of all, and he will build me a castle of gold and amber up there on the very top’” (p. 23). In her delirium when she was ill with the plague, “she talked most of her gold and amber castle on the ridge of the Grey Mountain” (p. 33). And now, because of that longing, she does not fear what the next day may bring:

“I have always—at least, ever since I can remember—had a kind of longing for death…. It was when I was happiest that I longed most. It was on happy days when we were up there on the hills, the three of us, with the wind and the sunshine. . . .  Because it was so beautiful, it set me longing, always longing. Somewhere else there must be more of it. Everything seemed to be saying, Psyche come! But I couldn’t (not yet) come and I didn’t know where I was to come to. It almost hurt me. I felt like a bird in a cage when then the other birds of its kind are flying home.” (p. 74)

So anyway… we fast forward. And it turns out Psyche finds great joy living with the god of the mountain. However, her older sister Orual is so obsessed with her own pain, that she ignored her younger sisters joy and gives her an ultimatum. She tells her, either break the command the god told you to obey, or else I will kill myself. Naturally, since Psyche loves her older sister, she obeys her and looses the god in the process. Dont worry, there is a happy ending.

My point is, that your friend should not misuse your friendship love in that way. I hope you can see past her feelings and recognize the joy and desire that is in your heart.
God Bless,
Gerrie

 

[Susan_Calvin]

allhers:

Oh, they were definately tears of joy for you. I just love the way our Lord makes Himself so known to some. I was just reading recently how even St. Therese puzzled over this.(She wondered, why this one and not that one? God is so mysterious and loving though, perhaps you were just more open, I sure don’t know, (heck if one of the greatest Saints puzzled over that I’m sure not going to try to figure it out.)

I’ve noticed people on this forum mentioning St. Therese a fair bit, and I’m interested to read more about her. I was at the university library yesterday and found St. Theresa of Avila. I took out a book by her but I’m not sure this is the same one? Ah well, I guess if I do more searching on this website I will figure it all out eventually. There is sooo much information here (not that I’m complaining), but its hard to weed through it all!

allhers:

In my experience, thankfully, I’ve mostly only known the good and holy Priest and I am sure that he has been praying for you since he first saw you, (thats just pretty much the way we Catholics are, you run into someone new on the street and you pray for them, you see a tired, frazzled mother in a shopping center who looks like she’s on her last nerve, you say a prayer for her…etc…

Funny you say this, because you are absolutely right. When I went to see Father D. that is exactly what he told me. He started saying hello to me because he felt strongly that I needed a friend, and he has been praying for me since he first saw me.

(oh, and by the way, earlier you said something about being nervous about introducing yourself to new people, well if you did go to Mass you may have already noticed that they may not exactly have been a problem as we don’t usually introduce ourselves there.)

Yes I noticed that when I went, both times (I have been twice now, and hope to go tomorrow as well). I was really worried about it… not that it is necessarily wrong, but years ago I visited a synagogue and the members were extremely curious about me. They literally turned around and stared at me where I was sitting. Before services had even began a couple of older people had already come over to where I was sitting and asked me what my name was, where I was from, who my parents were, and so on… they were friendly and kind but it was really unnerving and I never went back there as a result. It was really a relief to not have that happen in mass!

 

[Susan_Calvin]

jmcrae:

While that’s certainly possible, there is no reason you can’t explore the avenues that are being opened up - to say “yes” to the heroic adventure, as Joseph Campbell (who was also an agnostic, as far as I know) would have said.

That’s what I figure too… I’ve already led an extremely interesting life, and its largely because I’m open to new experiences. I do try to see the positive in things, and what I stand to gain from an experience.

jmcrae:

It is also going to take a long time to process the experience, once you start going. What you will find is that, certain things will stand out the first time, and then other things will stand out the second time, and yet more things will stand out the third time, up until seven times, and then after that, you will begin to be able to make sense of it, and you will begin to notice how the different parts of it mesh together.

Well I’m glad to hear the confusion ends eventually! After attending mass twice now, I’ll admit I’m still feeling pretty out of it. Not only that, but I feel like a bit of a fool because I’m finding the book Father D. gave me to read very difficult to understand. I’ve had to read the same sentences over and over again several times before anything makes sense or sinks in. He told me I could ask him any questions I liked when we met again, but practically every sentence contains a question! Honestly I’m a bit embarrassed because I have a PhD (though its not in divinity obviously )… but the point is, I do consider myself well read… and this is just so difficult to grasp that its kind of humbling.

jmcrae:

PS: I love your user name - I was a huge fan of Isaac Asimov when I was a kid. Susan Calvin was one of my favourite characters.

Oh I don’t know how I missed this before, but that’s great! I’m glad to have found someone who knows about Dr. Calvin. Even though she is a fictional character, I have felt a kinship with her ever since I first read “I, Robot”. I wanted to work with robots since I was a kid, I was designing and attempting to build them very early on in my life. I relate to Dr. Calvin in her personality also… if you recall she made the comment that she preferred robots to people because “robots were more decent”. As a kid I was hurt so often by people that I dreamed of some day living on an island with only robots and no people. I’ve always felt she and I have a fair bit in common. Even in some personal details of our lives… we are close in age (she was born in 1982 and I was born in 1978) and she went to Columbia University and so did I!

 

[Susan_Calvin]

grandfather:

Why do you think those Missionaries of Charity did what they did? Why did they choose that life? Why did that priest help you get in school? It is certainly true that in addition to helping you they also called on God to bless you. Why do you remember them as you do?

Yes that is very true… I honestly never thought about it until a few days ago. I just thought of them as kind, good people (which they were) but didn’t really consider the motivation behind it.

grandfather:

We all share something, a common trait that kind of unites us. God made us all with a common purpose. God made you to love and be loved. The missionaries loved you. You were touched by love there. You encountered love there. God is love. He made your soul out of nothing to be loved by Him. The missionaries were His instruments to bring you His love. Love is a magnet. It draws us. Those missionaries enfolded you in their hearts and prayers. They pled for you, that God would draw you to Himself and give you His grace, His gifts. Now it is happening.

Wow. That makes so much sense. Though I wonder why I didn’t do anything about it all these years?? I mean I guess its been in the back of my mind all this time, but… still I wonder why it took me so long to acknowledge it.

grandfather:

But what will that mean to you? What will being a Catholic mean as it is applied to your life? It means that you will change. A person does not become Catholic for the sake of being Catholic as if that were an end in itself. Faith and the love of God changes us. As the missionaries were intsruments of love in your life that is also what will happen to you, what you will become also. It is your turn to touch others with what you are given. Their religion compelled them to do what they did and live as they lived, impacting others as they did. If you embrace their religion it will also do something similar to you.

Wow again, I never really thought of it that way… never thought I would be like the sisters, even if I were to become Catholic. They just seem so good, and I’m… well… ordinary. Thank you though. You’ve given me so much to think about and I appreciate your advice.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

luminoushope:

I am from a secular Jewish family and became a Christian at probably the age you are now. At the time I was single and a paraprofessional. I am now 59 and a homemaker, not completely my choice, I had to quit work for health reasons. Though I never reached the professional level you have, I know what it is to be a single originally-Jewish woman in her thirties.

Oh interesting, we do seem to have a lot in common!

luminoushope:

While attending “Jesus movement” churches with my husband, I circled the Catholic church for almost 15 years. There were many things that attracted me. Mostly those things were experiential rather than intellectual, though I was raised to believe that the intellect was god.

While I wasn’t raised to believe that the intellect is god, I certainly relate to what you’re saying, as that’s the general atmosphere in university, where I’ve spent the majority of my adult life. This has actually triggered a memory for me! I started university at 16, and at the time I recall I was interested in being a Catholic, I wanted to be like the Sisters. It was just a vague interest, but it was definitely there. However I then began a course on the philosophical problems of religion… an elective requirement for my undergraduate degree. Among other things, the professor had us study an essay by Bertrand Russell entitled “Why I Am Not a Christian”. I remember being dazzled by the intellect of the professor and amazed at the essay. I was very young and naive, and I didn’t have any direction, so I pretty much believed everything I was taught in university. As a poor kid from the projects I was just so excited to be there. And that was the end of my thinking of people like the Sisters. Wow. I honestly hadn’t thought about that for years… Anyhow sorry, I kind of got off topic there a bit, but I had completely forgotten about that, so thank you for your help (however indirect or unintentioned) in jogging my memory!

luminoushope:

Also, I don’t believe there is contradiction between Catholicism and science, at least not the kind of science that actually goes by the scientific method. Not that I’m any scientist. Catholics aren’t even afraid of psychology the way my former Protestant denomination is. The Church is big enough and tall enough to be able to deal with all kinds of people and institutions. That is why it is called “Catholic”.

That’s awesome… I’ve caught a glimpse of this from reading here the past few days. When I said in my initial post that I didn’t agree with some things about the Catholic Church, this was partially what I was referring to. I guess though I was wrong about the Church. I thought the Church shared the beliefs of evangelical Christians with regards to science. I suppose its more correct to say that I didn’t know the Church’s stance on science, I just assumed. I’m really encouraged though if science is accepted, at least to an extent, and allowed to co-exist within the Church. I am a scientist and my whole livelihood (and what I love doing) is based on science. I can’t imagine giving it all up.

luminoushope:

I am sorry for the difficulty you experienced during Easter week, but it signals the strength of God’s love towards you at the time of His Passion.

Oh I never thought of that! Wow. I’m a broken record lately, it seems I’m always saying “I never thought of that” to a lot of you, but its the truth. I’m not used to thinking about things in this way I guess. I really enjoyed reading your story and I hope to chat with you more sometime.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

ez3714:

Some of the best advice I’ve gotten recently was on another forum (chnetwork.org/forums) The Coming Home Network. It was a quote from Merton, whose work you and I probably will do a great deal of studying in the future, “Enjoy God and be enjoyed by Him.” That’s really the essence of why we were created in the first place, and a good thing to fall back on when things get too hairy. And I’ll bet my bank account that before this little faith-walk ends, things will get hairy.

Thomas Merton? I saw that name at the library yesterday. That’s a nice quote, and thanks for the website. I will check it out soon. I think things have already become a bit hairy for me, considering the problems I’m having with my friend.

ez3714:

I will also venture to say that the “messages” and “coincidences” (I think the accepted name is “God-incidences”) will continue to more you (we) are obedient to them.

Oh that’s cool. In that case, I just have to get over my fear of them!

ez3714:

It is good that you are being called to Mass, but I can tell you from my own experience that when the Call to Prayer comes, Pay Attention! You will find that as your greatest source of strength in anything you go through…

…I had never heard the Rosary prayed before in my life, and yet got the “instruction” to get the beads and do the prayers. I haven’t missed a day in the past month since then, and the relationship it has helped build with Mother Mary has proved invaluable. Pray always, and never be hesitant about running to Mom.

Its interesting you mention this, because I have been thinking about the rosary the past couple of days. I was intrigued by the Sisters’ rosaries, though I really didn’t know what they were for. In any event, since I’ve been to mass I’m suddenly feeling a desire to pray the rosary. I don’t own a rosary though, and I don’t know the prayers (though I’m sure I can find them online). The thing is though, I figured because I am not a Catholic I shouldn’t get ahead of myself. But are you saying non-Catholics say the rosary also??

 

[luminoushope]

I think the references to St. Therese were to St. Therese of Lisieux–though I’m very new to all this myself. You will like her as you get to know her. Our priest told me the most interesting story about her: when she was 9 years old, she caught sight of a newspaper announcing the execution of a murderer. Her father, wanting to protect her, took the newspaper away, but she prayed earnestly for the conversion of the man to be executed two weeks later. As the man was being taken to the gallows, a priest held up a crucifix before him, which he kissed.

Father O. and I both started crying when he finished telling this story.

Blessings,

L.H.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

CSUNGerrie:

I guess your experience with your friend reminds me of the words of our Lord in John 15:
If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.
Meditate on these words, and on why the world did what it did when it crucified our Lord.

I will keep this in mind, though I don’t feel terribly persecuted, more just baffled. Its just not like the person I know. It seemed so completely out of character. I am hurt though, if I’m honest. Thank you for giving me those words to think about.

CSUNGerrie:

So anyway… we fast forward. And it turns out Psyche finds great joy living with the god of the mountain. However, her older sister Orual is so obsessed with her own pain, that she ignored her younger sisters joy and gives her an ultimatum. She tells her, either break the command the god told you to obey, or else I will kill myself.

Wow. Not quite as dramatic as the book, but it seems that is exactly what my friend is doing right now…

CSUNGerrie:

My point is, that your friend should not misuse your friendship love in that way. I hope you can see past her feelings and recognize the joy and desire that is in your heart.

I agree, and don’t worry, this whole experience seems too “right” to pass it up based on what my friend wants. I’m conflicted about her, I feel sad and I don’t want to lose the friendship, but… I’m still pursuing this, regardless. Over the years, there’s been several times where I’ve supported her even though I didn’t agree with or understand her actions. Maybe its time for her to extend the same acceptance to me.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

I think the references to St. Therese were to St. Therese of Lisieux–though I’m very new to all this myself.

Ah OK… thanks! I’ll google her. That is a nice story.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

Well I think I’ve caught up in this thread now. Phew. I have this "thing"about responding to everyone who responds to me on a forum. I tried to reply and/or send private messages to you all, I hope I didn’t miss anyone! Thanks again all for your help and advice.

I don’t have much to add by way of update. My friend has not contacted me, but then it hasn’t been long either. I’m going to give her a few days before I do anything. Right now I’m just trying to understand this book the priest has given me to read… I’m having difficulty as I mentioned in another post.

I’m going to my first Sunday mass tomorrow, and I’m quite nervous. I actually have to go out to a department store this evening and find a dress or skirt! I am a jean and t-shirt person and don’t even own a skirt currently. But I thought I should dress a little better, it being Sunday.

I will continue to update all of you, especially about my friend, if I hear anything.

 

[luminoushope]

This has actually triggered a memory for me! I started university at 16, and at the time I recall I was interested in being a Catholic, I wanted to be like the Sisters. It was just a vague interest, but it was definitely there. However I then began a course on the philosophical problems of religion… an elective requirement for my undergraduate degree. Among other things, the professor had us study an essay by Bertrand Russell entitled “Why I Am Not a Christian”. I remember being dazzled by the intellect of the professor and amazed at the essay. I was very young and naive, and I didn’t have any direction, so I pretty much believed everything I was taught in university. As a poor kid from the projects I was just so excited to be there. And that was the end of my thinking of people like the Sisters. Wow. I honestly hadn’t thought about that for years… Anyhow sorry, I kind of got off topic there a bit, but I had completely forgotten about that, so thank you for your help (however indirect or unintentioned) in jogging my memory!

I thought the Church shared the beliefs of evangelical Christians with regards to science.

Oh I never thought of that! Wow. I’m a broken record lately, it seems I’m always saying “I never thought of that” to a lot of you, but its the truth. I’m not used to thinking about things in this way I guess.

Hi Susan! I wish I knew how to break up a quote and answer each part as some of you do. I’m technologically challenged, or we could just try unwilling to learn the refinements of this thing.

As for your triggered memory, my participation was is completely coincidental. On the other hand, I have a plaque in my kitchen that says “A coincidence is when Good chooses to remain anonymous.” This may happen to you more than once; in fact I think it’s likely, because when we come towards the Church so much opens up in our minds and hearts that we had kept closed. After not crying for years, I cry all the time now. I often feel as if my mind is expanding without drug use. I have this mental image of my brain stretching–not too comfortable, but we’ve all ventured out of our comfort zones, haven’t we?

In fairness to evangelical Christians, I think some of the hardened attitudes about science stem from the current secular assault on public schools. We had an intelligent design media circus here in 2006. I worked at the local newspaper at the time and really saw it up close. A teacher proposed having ID along with evolution in a 5-week elective intersession high school class (somewhat like summer camp in the winter). A local scientist brought in the typical outside organization (I’m a retired legal secretary, I know how it’s done), rounded up the standard local plaintiffs, and took the school district to federal court. Of course they starved out the school district, forcing a settlement which made this an evolution-only school district forever. So much for academic freedom. ID is illegal but the high school has a GSA club (gay/straight alliance). The ID material never even mentioned God or a Creator at all, by the way. There is a difference between ID and creationism. It’s actually very interesting. If you can ever get hold of a DVD called “Unlocking the Mystery of Life”, you might enjoy it. The bacterium flagellum was my favorite.

At any rate, I believe the Catholic Church, being catholic, has a more embracing and tolerant attitude toward science than some others. In time you will get to talk to your priest about this. Especially in your field, I doubt you need fear censure or criticism. I have found that in general the Catholic view of life seems less narrow than some others. I was a Protestant for 27 years and I am trying really hard to be tactful.

Don’t feel alone, it seems that the converts’ chorus goes, “How’d I miss that?” Whatever “that” may be, in my case it’s often the meaning of certain Bible verses. I may have mentioned that our priest is teaching me weekly, and I’ve gotten used to sitting across the desk from him with my mouth hanging open in amazement.

I’m so glad you answered me! I know your journey will be wonderful. May God keep you close to His heart. Most important: Fear not.

Love in Christ,

L.H.