struggling with mary

[Tom_Baum]

How about the “mother of God” part…do you have a problem with that?

Peace!!!

No, I just think of Mary as the mother of God-Incarnate.

If one believes that Jesus is God-Incarnate than who is His mother?

For God to become Incarnate as truly Man and truly God, someone had to be His mom and Mary was chosen by God even before creation, God being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, however when Mary was first chosen, before creation, God would more correctly be spoken of as the First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity.

With the Triune God, Mary is spoken of as the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son and the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

One does not hear too much about Mary being our sister, but she is.

We are all brothers and sisters of each other and sons and daughters of God, kind of a pretty dysfunctional family, aren’t we?

There is a difference, big difference, between being the Mother of the Triune God and being the mother of God-Incarnate, since the Triune God has no mother or father only God-Incarnate has a mom and a Dad.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thanks for this, very helpful. Did you get this from a particular website?

I don’t recall…that is the sort of chart that does tend to float around the web, though.

Steve Ray did a lot with this idea, also.

 

[Goya]

Agreed! And when I notice this sort of difference in thinking I usually say, “it is ok with me for you to limit your love for God, but please don’t limit my love for Him. If I choose to place Mary higher than you do, it does not mean I put her higher than God. Maybe, just maybe, I am putting God higher than you have”.

Peace!!!

Great perspective!

 

[adboson]

Hi, everybody.

First of all, forgive my poor English. I´m talking from Brazil.

To understand how you can freely all the praise, all the honor you can to Mary, and it still would be very insuficient, you have to read a book. This book was beside the bed of Pope John Paul II everynight, since he was a seminarist. He was a totally consecrated to Mary. Like I am.
In English I think its title is “True Devotion to Mary”.

From wikipaedia: Pope John Paul II once recalled how as a young seminarian he “read and reread many times and with great spiritual profit” a work of de Montfort and that:
“Then I understood that I could not exclude the Lord’s Mother from my life without neglecting the will of God-Trinity”. According to his Apostolic Letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae, the pontif’s personal motto “Totus Tuus” was inspired by St. Louis’ doctrine on the excellence of Marian devotion and total consecration.

“Our entire perfection consists in being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus Christ. Hence the most perfect of all devotions is undoubtedly that which conforms, unites and consecrates us most perfectly to Jesus Christ.
Now, since Mary is, of all creatures, the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that, among all devotions, that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is the devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her, the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ.”

==
Saint Mary is daughter of God Father.
Saint Mary is mother of God Son.
Saint Mary is wife if God Holy Spirit.

Jesus came to Earth through Mary.
Our Salvation came, and still comes to us, through Mary.
If the most perfect form, because it was the way chosen by God himself, to save us, was through Mary, we can rightly understand that…
Jesus will come, in her second coming, through Mary again!

Not staying again in her womb, but when we´re all devoted to her, following her to follow Him.

===

All the dogmas of Mary (her Assumption in body and Soul by God; her Conception without the original sin; her Eternal Virginity; and her Divine Motherhood) are in the Bible. They are ALL biblical, strictly biblical. But they are not easy to identify. It required time, even to he Chruch and its Saints, to understand. And we are still reflecting and learning about our “Ianua Caeli (Heaven´s Door)” these days.

Jesus gave us our mother when He was in the cross. It was His last act, His last words!

===

Jesus made His first miracle, in Cana, attending a request from His mother. First, He said it was not His time yet. She CHANGED the time of God. Or, best said, the time of Mary IS the time of God, and vice-versa.

See you soon

 

[JoseC]

Hello all,

I struggled for a long time in understanding Marian doctrines and prayers and even more in explaining them to a pentecostal friend, and I think this can help you greatly.
I have read four or five books on Mary and watched and listened to many many hours of Marian teaching. The best book I read is probably “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn.
But I would say these 6 videos by Karlo Broussard are among the best sources of information I have found on this topic. I have not found many other resources (if any) that show so clear how full the Bible and the story of salvation is with Mary. Karlo is simply spotless in teaching. Each video is 45-50 minutes, but if you take the time and watch the three topics (say one a week) with your Bible in hand, you will definitely fall in love with Mary and much more importantly, you will thank Jesus for giving her to us and for leading the Church “into all truth”. It is really worth investing time in this. It helps you understand who God is, and what the masterpiece of his creation is.
Do not let your doubts on Mary or any other topic separate you from Jesus. And I mean that because I don’t see any other way to look at it. If Jesus said he is the Church (the Church is his body), then HE IS. If Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be with the Church forever and teach all truth, then IT WILL. And denying that is simply disagreeing with God. And when we struggle with any teaching of the Church, these two truths should burn inside us. God said He is there forever, so He is and will be there forever. There is just no other way around it. And a million catholic sinners, as rotten as they be, can never ever have the tiniest effect on Jesus’ words. That is how powerful and loving God is. You listen to the Church, you listen to Him (cuz He said so, not cuz catholics are very holy or very intelligent or whatever).

Mary as Eve (I): youtube.com/watch?v=lD2NsyJ5ozI
Mary as Eve (II): youtube.com/watch?v=ElJkP8gQpDE
Mary as Joy of Israel (I): youtube.com/watch?v=XNagjccx4OM
Mary as Joy of Israel (II): youtube.com/watch?v=oWGENsGDvhg
Mary as Ark of the Covenant (I): youtube.com/watch?v=1_7d1QAwQFc
Mary as Ark of the Covenant (II): youtube.com/watch?v=hPhsrIRBLuc

And when you are in need for a quick refresh, this video which somebody else already posted will help a lot. Really beautiful: youtube.com/watch?v=Kkj_MN7Tnu0

God bless you all.

 

[Miriam1947]

Watch this video. The best explanation and proof for Mary.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

 

[Luvadoxi]

Re: Tom Baum’s comment: Someone help clear this up for me. Mary the daughter of God the Father, Mother of the Son and spouse of the Holy Spirit–sounds good, but is it doctrine or just pious tradition? Isn’t saying Mary is the Mother of God Incarnate (only) an early heresy? Mary is Mother of God. I’d appreciate a discussion of this–thank you!

 

[Miriam1947]

Is Jesus God? Is Mary his mother?

Did you watch the video?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Re: Tom Baum’s comment: Someone help clear this up for me. Mary the daughter of God the Father, Mother of the Son and spouse of the Holy Spirit–sounds good, but is it doctrine or just pious tradition? Isn’t saying Mary is the Mother of God Incarnate (only) an early heresy? Mary is Mother of God. I’d appreciate a discussion of this–thank you!

No, Mary is Mother of God — the Son. She is the Mother of the 2nd PERSON of the Trinity.

The heresy of Nestorianism, along with some modern-day equivalents, is to claim that Mary is the Mother of Jesus’ human nature only.

See Mary: Mother of God

 

[crochet_lady]

Fatherknowsbest #33

You asked 'why not try to emulate Mary as well as Christ"? We have a Perfect example in Jesus Christ to emulate – All others are totally human and are prone to sinfulness.

And Mary Was the earthly mother of Jesus – the mother of His human nature only. Being conceived of the Holy Spirit , Jesus the human baby / being born as a ‘human’ baby allowed Him to be born with human desires – just like Us. In other words – Jesus the Christ Child – was Both God in the flesh – the 2nd part of the Godhead And part ‘us’. Because He was part ‘us’ , He was able to experience all the temptations that We experience. He experienced all the same emotions as we do. But – He also had the strength to Not give in to any of those temptations – He used God’s Word to defeat the temptations that Satan gave to Him. And We can do the same – use God’s Word to defeat Satan’s temptations to us.

How could Mary be the Mother of God – because 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth … mankind included. Mary Was the ‘tool’ that God used to deliver Jesus His Son into the world as a Baby.

A comment was made earlier about the Church knowing who the saints are? What is the term “Church” referring To? And Where is ‘purgatory’ located?

 

[Luvadoxi]

Hi FathersKnowBest–thank you so much for clearing that up for me. I knew that once but forgot. Crochet lady’s comment helped too–it’s not possible for Mary to be the mother of a “nature.” She has to be mother of a person. Jesus is a Divine Person, with two natures–human and divine. And Jesus is God. So Mary is the Mother of God. Got it!

 

[Luvadoxi]

Jesus wasn’t half human and half God. He was fully human, and fully God. A mystery for sure!

PS: I don’t know where purgatory is…or if it’s a place or a purification process. One misunderstanding I had when I was Protestant was that purgatory was a “second chance” at Heaven. But everyone in Purgatory (wherever or whatever it is) is saved–going to Heaven. I like to think of it as the foyer or “mudroom” of Heaven!

 

[po18guy]

From another thread:

As to Mary, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches honor her because God honored her first. God is not a random being. All of His acts of creation are by design. Before Mary came into flesh, she was conceived of, from all eternity, in the divine intellect as part of God’s perfect plan for the salvation of mankind. She was conceived in the womb of her mother for the express purpose of conceiving Christ in her womb and giving her flesh to the second Person of the Godhead, our Lord Jesus Christ. Since we know that all things were created through Christ (John 1:1-4), we know that Christ was involved in the creation of His own mother. She was given her flesh by Jesus so that she could, in return, give her flesh to Jesus. Since no other way of bringing Christ to flesh was ordained by God, we acknowledge it and honor that part of His divine plan.

From the scriptural record, we see that Jesus and Mary were together from virgin womb to virgin tomb. No one else on earth can claim this. The ancient Church, as seen today in both the Catholic and Orthodox Christians, recognized what God had done, while never fully understanding the why of it all. The bottom line is that God honored Mary first. Although He is not a respecter of man, He certainly bestows honor on those whom He chooses. In Hebrews 11, we see that God blessed and honored those of faith - from Abel even to Rahab the harlot. In scripture, Elizabeth tells us by the Holy Spirit that Mary is blessed for her belief (Luke 1:45). That same belief bore fruit for the redemption of all mankind. Her divine Son said that “you will know them by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:16, 7:20) Name a more fruitful womb than Mary’s!

Bearing this in mind, what greater honor is there than to have been chosen by God to bring Christ - the long-awaited and divine Messiah - in one’s womb? What greater honor than to nurse the Messiah? What greater honor than to protect and care for Him and nurture His human development all those early years? What greater honor than to have caused His first miracle? (John 2:5) What greater honor than to have accompanied Him all the years of His earthly life and ministry? No one else on earth, not even the Apostles, was so honored. Before Christ could choose the twelve (or Paul), He had first to choose His own mother.

God honored Mary first. The early Church honored (and honors) Mary. Scripture says that “all generations” will call her blessed. The primary reformers honored Mary and believed in her purity and perpetual virginity. Has it now become a sin to honor what God honors?

The question in my mind is: What has happened to bible Christianity since the reformation?

 

[Dorothy]

Fatherknowsbest #33

You asked 'why not try to emulate Mary as well as Christ"? We have a Perfect example in Jesus Christ to emulate – All others are totally human and are prone to sinfulness.

And Mary Was the earthly mother of Jesus – the mother of His human nature only. Being conceived of the Holy Spirit , Jesus the human baby / being born as a ‘human’ baby allowed Him to be born with human desires – just like Us. In other words – Jesus the Christ Child – was Both God in the flesh – the 2nd part of the Godhead And part ‘us’. Because He was part ‘us’ , He was able to experience all the temptations that We experience. He experienced all the same emotions as we do. But – He also had the strength to Not give in to any of those temptations – He used God’s Word to defeat the temptations that Satan gave to Him. And We can do the same – use God’s Word to defeat Satan’s temptations to us.

How could Mary be the Mother of God – because 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth … mankind included. Mary Was the ‘tool’ that God used to deliver Jesus His Son into the world as a Baby.

A comment was made earlier about the Church knowing who the saints are? What is the term “Church” referring To? And Where is ‘purgatory’ located?

crochet lady,

With regard to your question about Mary being the Mother of God…

It doesn’t mean that she preceded God, she is a creature like us, although highly privileged.

We call her Mother of God because that title acknowledges that the Child in her womb is the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Who is 100% human and 100@ Divine.

Alleluia!

 

[Miriam1947]

And Where is ‘purgatory’ located?

Where is heaven located?

 

[po18guy]

Goya #21

Who do I try to emulate? Jesus Christ – ‘what would Jesus do’ What do God’s guidelines tell me to do? Do I have a Choice? Sure I do. Lots of people have a role model from their younger years. Maybe a wonderful Sunday School teacher – maybe someone they knew who always helped the poor people in the community. Maybe a missionary they wanted to be like. But People can have a way of falling down off the pedestal that We put them up on.

Jesus Christ Never fails – We will not be perfect – but our life Should be reflecting Jesus Christ.

Fatherknowsbest #33

You asked 'why not try to emulate Mary as well as Christ"? We have a Perfect example in Jesus Christ to emulate – All others are totally human and are prone to sinfulness.

And Mary Was the earthly mother of Jesus – the mother of His human nature only. Being conceived of the Holy Spirit , Jesus the human baby / being born as a ‘human’ baby allowed Him to be born with human desires – just like Us. In other words – Jesus the Christ Child – was Both God in the flesh – the 2nd part of the Godhead And part ‘us’. Because He was part ‘us’ , He was able to experience all the temptations that We experience. He experienced all the same emotions as we do. But – He also had the strength to Not give in to any of those temptations – He used God’s Word to defeat the temptations that Satan gave to Him. And We can do the same – use God’s Word to defeat Satan’s temptations to us.

How could Mary be the Mother of God – because 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth … mankind included. Mary Was the ‘tool’ that God used to deliver Jesus His Son into the world as a Baby.

A comment was made earlier about the Church knowing who the saints are? What is the term “Church” referring To? And Where is ‘purgatory’ located?

Maybe, just maybe, if you stopped defaulting against the Catholic Church, you would realize that Mary is in heaven, seated at her Son’s right hand and cannot fall off of any “pedestal”, as you put it.

You have been advised, numerous times in other threads, of the reasons for Marian doctrine. You apparently have chosen to completely ignore those posts. Please explain how this is a learning process.

You also must know that Catholics do not follow the man-made doctrine of bible alone. I thought you were here to learn.

 

[Goya]

crochet lady;11491832]Fatherknowsbest #33

You asked 'why not try to emulate Mary as well as Christ"? We have a Perfect example in Jesus Christ to emulate – All others are totally human and are prone to sinfulness. And Mary Was the earthly mother of Jesus – the mother of His human nature only.

What is sin? Sin is turning away from God (and/or otherwise offending Him). Through our thoughts, words, or actions, turning away from, or offending, God.

So by your reckoning, God just chose a useful sinner–someone contaminated with the thoughts, words or actions of turning away from and/or offending God–in which to harbor His only begotten Son.

What a feeble view you must necessarily harbor of God the Father.

Being conceived of the Holy Spirit , Jesus the human baby / being born as a ‘human’ baby allowed Him to be born with human desires – just like Us. In other words – Jesus the Christ Child – was Both God in the flesh – the 2nd part of the Godhead And part ‘us’. Because He was part ‘us’ , He was able to experience all the temptations that We experience. He experienced all the same emotions as we do. But – He also had the strength to Not give in to any of those temptations – He used God’s Word to defeat the temptations that Satan gave to Him. And We can do the same – use God’s Word to defeat Satan’s temptations to us.

By your account, God the Father permitted His Holy Spirit, to commingle with one contaminated with/by sin; one who turned away from, and/or offended Him, at the time of this commingling–tainted by the stain of not just original sin, but sin itself.

What a feeble view you must necessarily harbor of God the Father, and His Holy Spirit.

How could Mary be the Mother of God – because 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth … mankind included. Mary Was the ‘tool’ that God used to deliver Jesus His Son into the world as a Baby.

By your account, God the Father didn’t create Mary to be the mother of His only begotten Son; He merely chose a decent person; a useful sinner–someone contaminated with the thoughts, words or actions of turning away from God–A MERE TOOL–in which to harbor His only begotten Son, His WORD. He merely chose a useful ‘tool’, contaminated with and by not just original sin, but sin itself.

But, for harboring His written word–the Ten Commandments on stone tablets–He required immaculate perfection in the construction of the Ark of the Covenant, and required that it not be touched–even on the outside–by anyone contaminated with sin–yet, for harboring His Word Incarnate…just some decent to good person, contaminated with sin–again, not just original sin, but sin itself–that was good enough for His Son, His Word, INCARNATE.

What a feeble view you must necessarily harbor of God the Father, His Holy Spirit, and His only begotten Son, His Word Incarnate..

A comment was made earlier about the Church knowing who the saints are? What is the term “Church” referring To?

“Church” refers to that body of believers founded by Christ, to whom He expressly entrusted the Faith, and to whom He expressly and exclusively delegated His authority–the same body of believers that preserved His Word infallibly for 15 centuries before the prophet Martin Luther, and his disciples, determined that Christ’s legacy was flawed, and that they were perfectly suited to improve upon His legacy (notwithstanding having ZERO authority vis a vis divine revelation, intervention, or otherwise–feel free to attempt to correct me on this point, if you think you can (hint: you cannot))–and btw, the same body which continues to preserve it to this day–along with the rest of the totality of the Deposit of Faith (i.e.–not just scripture).

And Where is ‘purgatory’ located?

With all due respect, this is embarrassingly childish. Where is Heaven? Where I Hell? Where is ‘the right hand of the Father’?

…what is most ironic, is that you volunteer this retort, perhaps thinking it clever–mockingly–yet the basis cited by many of the Reformers for denying the Real Presence, was that 'Christ couldn’t be in the Eucharist…because he is seated at ‘the right hand of the Father.’

…and so to reciprocate–just to make a point–where exactly, is the right hand of the Father, that God, by and through His second person, can not in the Eucharist?

Does that not deny the omnipresence (to say nothing of His omnipotence, and omniscience) of the Lord???

Again, what a feeble view you must necessarily harbor of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, that you would dare pretend to project your temporal human limitations, on Him..

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Fatherknowsbest #33

You asked 'why not try to emulate Mary as well as Christ"? We have a Perfect example in Jesus Christ to emulate – All others are totally human and are prone to sinfulness.

So, what do you make of St. Paul:
1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
1Co 11:1** Be imitators of me**, as I am of Christ.
1Co 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

Php 3:17 Brethren, join in imitating me, and mark those who so live as you have an example in us.

You see, the radical “Jesus-and-me only” thought is distinctly protestant and is also very un-biblical.

Catholics take the whole Bible as Truth.

And Mary Was the earthly mother of Jesus – the mother of His human nature only.

There it is - the resurgence of Nestorianism. One problem with Nestorianism is that, when examined to its logical conclusion, denies the atonement of Jesus.

From Nestorianism

Nestorius himself argued against calling Mary the “Mother of God” (Theotokos) as the church was beginning to do. He held that Mary was the mother of Christ only in respect to His humanity. The council at Ephesus (431) accused Nestorius of the heresy of teaching “two persons” in Christ and insisted that Theotokos was an appropriate title for Mary.

The problem with Nestorianism is that it threatens the atonement. If Jesus is two persons, then which one died on the cross? If it was the “human person” then the atonement is not of divine quality and thereby insufficient to cleanse us of our sins.

People don’t give birth to natures. They give birth to persons.

Is your mother the mother of YOU, or the mother of your human body only?

How could Mary be the Mother of God – because 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth … mankind included. Mary Was the ‘tool’ that God used to deliver Jesus His Son into the world as a Baby.

Really?
Explain to your mother that she’s just the “tool” that God used to deliver you.

 

[Goya]

…

And Mary Was the earthly mother of Jesus – the mother of His human nature only

Exactly right.

Which is why the Church declared it heresy–as it declared Mary, Theotokos–bearer of God (or Mother of God, as we know it), at the Council of Ephesus, in 431 AD.

 

[gmanlq]

No, I just think of Mary as the mother of God-Incarnate.

If one believes that Jesus is God-Incarnate than who is His mother?

For God to become Incarnate as truly Man and truly God, someone had to be His mom and Mary was chosen by God even before creation, God being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, however when Mary was first chosen, before creation, God would more correctly be spoken of as the First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity.

With the Triune God, Mary is spoken of as the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son and the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

One does not hear too much about Mary being our sister, but she is.

We are all brothers and sisters of each other and sons and daughters of God, kind of a pretty dysfunctional family, aren’t we?

There is a difference, big difference, between being the Mother of the Triune God and being the mother of God-Incarnate, since the Triune God has no mother or father only God-Incarnate has a mom and a Dad.

Just wanted to point out that Mary is our spiritual mother and not our sister. If we are brothers of Christ Jesus then she would be our mother not our sister.