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ChiRho
Guest
I won’t be responding to the rest of your post, but suffice it to say that you are getting worked up about nothing. I didn’t insult anyone,* I didn’t call anyone a coward*. Grow up
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CMatt25
Guest
“Some priests might not have a problem with it. But some probably are too scared that people will get so sensitive”
No you said some priests are probably too scared.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Socially-motivated fear and morally-based cowardice are two different things.
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CMatt25
Guest
So unless “I” “dress up” you would rather “I” not come to Mass? This focus by some on CAF on what others are wearing to Mass amazes me actually. But oh well.The “I” syndrome again!
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CMatt25
Guest
No offense taken because my statement, “God who knows the heart doesn’t reject the disciple in sandals more than he rejects the rich man in a suit”, didn’t say every man in a suit is rich. Nor that rich people don’t wear sandals.
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ChiRho
Guest
Thank you for understanding this distinction and not filling in my words for me. Curly wants to be morally outraged that I suggested priests might have to let a few things go for the greater good (i.e. not discouraging people to attend Mass in their sweats if discouraging that attire meant they just stop going altogether). Perhaps this is a nuanced position, and it is certainly harder to debate than simply interpreting it as saying that I am calling priests cowards, and “demanding” an apology with much bravado and rectitude.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I definitely think that priests pick their battles, for the reason you’re suggesting. I’ve seen a lot of evidence of this.
And I must say also that I actually think it’s up to us lay people to be the witnesses for this, rather than pressuring our priests to make actual statements. Part of this is that he has no opportunity to be an example since he’s wearing vestments. I don’t approve of shunning others do to clothing, for heaven’s sake. But I do believe in being a good example, mostly in behavior and secondarily with words (such as mentioning in casual conversation that you prefer not to wear your least attractive clothing for church, but instead will wear it other places in pubic – if such opportunities arise when habits or clothing are being discussed). Ditto for being the example by not agreeing to go directly from Mass to an extremely informal event -rather backing down and insisting that you’ll have to go home first because you wouldn’t wear your slightly nicer clothes to an ultra-casual affair.
etc.
People with any decency actually respect people who have personal standards for themselves. It’s only people who have a problem judging others for wearing nicer clothes, or who perhaps feel threatened when others do so, who will claim to, or pretend to, or interiorly disdain such care in others.
Fine. Let them. When enough concerned Catholics start showing respectability (which everyone can afford), not fanciness, it will start to become more the norm again. May not happen overnight but perhaps faster than we had hoped.
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Sarabande
Guest
I always find this an interesting topic because it isn’t just something talked about for mass, but also in my line of work. As an opera singer, I do many auditions and there are so many articles on appropriate attire… especially for women. Men’s attire is addressed on a much smaller scale, but that’s because most men who audition don’t wear too casual clothing or clothing that reveals too much. They almost always wear a suit and tie or jacket and tie - a lot like old-fashioned church attire or nice occasion attire like a wedding or something like that.
For female singers, though, that is not always the case. There are a lot of complaints about some women wearing skirts/dresses that are too short, low top blouses, too tight outfits, too formal outfits, etc. The auditioners don’t want to see every part of a woman’s anatomy, they don’t want to see lumps and bumps moving around while they sing due to outfits that are too tight and they don’t want to be staring at a woman’s breasts the entire time, distracting them from what they set out to do… listen to the voice.
Now, of course, when we go to mass, we are not there to make an impression or to audition, but I have found that most of the recommendations for appropriate attire to wear works for mass as well… at least for me personally. Anyway, so this is my own standard criteria. I also have a church music job, so I do dress a little more professionally and conservatively than most.
1 to 3 outfits is all that is needed for a “uniform” that you can mix and match for mass. In fact, that’s just what I have for both my audition attire and for church. It’s actually what I consider my Sunday best. I don’t have a lot of money to buy a plethora of outfits, nor do I think that is essential. I can still look appropriate without spending hundreds of dollars.
For female singers, though, that is not always the case. There are a lot of complaints about some women wearing skirts/dresses that are too short, low top blouses, too tight outfits, too formal outfits, etc. The auditioners don’t want to see every part of a woman’s anatomy, they don’t want to see lumps and bumps moving around while they sing due to outfits that are too tight and they don’t want to be staring at a woman’s breasts the entire time, distracting them from what they set out to do… listen to the voice.
Now, of course, when we go to mass, we are not there to make an impression or to audition, but I have found that most of the recommendations for appropriate attire to wear works for mass as well… at least for me personally. Anyway, so this is my own standard criteria. I also have a church music job, so I do dress a little more professionally and conservatively than most.
1 to 3 outfits is all that is needed for a “uniform” that you can mix and match for mass. In fact, that’s just what I have for both my audition attire and for church. It’s actually what I consider my Sunday best. I don’t have a lot of money to buy a plethora of outfits, nor do I think that is essential. I can still look appropriate without spending hundreds of dollars.
- Clean clothing, preferably pressed, so there are not a huge amount of wrinkles looking like I just rolled out of bed.
- For a skirt or dress, the hem should come at least to the knee or lower. (The last thing I want anywhere is for someone to see everything when I bend over or get up from kneeling.) I do wear pants sometimes for mass, but rarely for auditions unless I’m trying out for a pants-role of playing a boy/young man in an opera.
- No tight outfits. I don’t want anyone seeing and/or gawking at a full outline of my already well-endowed chest area, nor the complete outline of my derriere. To build upon that, proper undergarments also help, so that one does not see my pantyline or any other lumps and bumps and will keep my chest in place and in check. Wearing super loose tops can also bring too much attention to my chest area (ie. making it look bigger just one example) so I try to go in between.
- I’m often cantoring, so I make the habit of having no bold patterns or super bright colors. (It’s also a common rule of appropriate colors/patterns for opera auditions.) I steer towards more solid colors, more conservative patterns if I do wear them and will do more neutral colors or black to be as inconspicuous as possible. (That’s more for cantoring. Auditions you’d want to have some sort of color or power color as long as it’s not super bright, but that’s neither here nor there in terms of mass.)
- No formal wear - Leave the sequins and other shiny/sparkling outfits at home and for concerts or other formal events.
- Shoes - I tend to wear shoes that are either flats or low heels. It’s just because singing in really high heels doesn’t allow me grounding whether it is for cantoring or for performance and they just aren’t comfortable for me.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
That sounds very reasonable…however the formal wear rules out other posters who suggest wearing your best like you were going to a wedding or to meet the president…
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
There are a couple of problems with that…who gets to determine what the least attractive clothing is? There is a wide range of variety here from people who think it is ok to wear low cut jeans to Mass to those that are scandalized by those wearing short sleeve shirts.
Second…if I knew you and you mentioned some comment about how YOU like to wear something other than your least attrative clothing to church…I’d probably ignore you completly as well as the snotty comment.
A previous thread about this was one man who was upset because some lady in the church was handing out flyers to those that she “thought” were not dressed appropriately. The wife was thouroughly upset as was the husband. All it succeeded in doing is upseting someone who was already self concious (not about her dress) and creating ill will. The wife and husband did not think that they were dressed inappropriately and yet they were one of those singled out.
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Sarabande
Guest
haha! Well, unless it is a formal wedding, it would look a little funny seeing someone in an evening gown or any kind of evening wear. Besides, most formal gowns are strapless, so wouldn’t they automatically be ruled out anyway unless they wear a shrug or shawl?That sounds very reasonable…however the formal wear rules out other posters who suggest wearing your best like you were going to a wedding or to meet the president…
Although I have cantored a number of weddings where the attire was more like “church-wear”: dress shirt, tie and dockers, suit and tie, dresses, skirts, etc.
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EddieAlbania
Guest
“Lord’s Gym” shirts – that sort of thing.
On one hand, the message is appropriate. On the other hand, you’re wearing a t-shirt to Mass.
On one hand, the message is appropriate. On the other hand, you’re wearing a t-shirt to Mass.
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CMatt25
Guest
Honestly would have been the last time she saw me if she represented that church. As I wouldn’t want to be part of such a church where clothing is the emphasis to such a degree.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I never said or implied anything about others determining anything. The point was to bring up in conversation one’s own preferences, that’s all.
It’s a moot point. You and I probably wouldn’t associate IRL, because my friends and I value (name removed by moderator)ut from each, see each other as valid role models to look up to, and don’t call each other “snotty.”
I have often considered the comments of respected friends and relatives with regard to their own choices which they voice. If I respect such a statement, I learn from it and see how I might incorporate that into my own life, as well. I take my friendships extremely seriously and am very particular about the values & priorities my friends have. If they do not strive to better themselves, and to help me better myself, I have no use for them. I do not refer to economic betterment, but to growth in other areas.
That has nothing to do with anything I said. I don’t care what happens in other churches. I care about setting an appropriate example that does not speak to judging or pretension, but merely to personal self-respect, to respect for our neighbor, and respect for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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CMatt25
Guest
So you get to decide who has respect based on what you determine to be an appropriatee example of their clothing?I never said or implied anything about others determining anything. The point was to bring up in conversation one’s own preferences, that’s all.
It’s a moot point. You and I probably wouldn’t associate IRL, because my friends and I value (name removed by moderator)ut from each, see each other as valid role models to look up to, and don’t call each other “snotty.”
I have often considered the comments of respected friends and relatives with regard to their own choices which they voice. If I respect such a statement, I learn from it and see how I might incorporate that into my own life, as well. I take my friendships extremely seriously and am very particular about the values & priorities my friends have. If they do not strive to better themselves, and to help me better myself, I have no use for them. I do not refer to economic betterment, but to growth in other areas.
That has nothing to do with anything I said. I don’t care what happens in other churches. I care about setting an appropriate example that does not speak to judging or pretension, but merely to personal self-respect, to respect for our neighbor, and respect for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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Tigg
Guest
^ Elizabeth, thank you for your dignified response to an off the wall, completely unmerited remark.
Some on this thread don’t seem to understand that in one sense, it isn’t about the clothes at all, but that the outer being reflects our souls, who we really are. What insult we bring upon ourselves when we don’t dress with dignity for Mass – for the Lord!
But apparently the word casual dress has a politically correct dimension now and is an antonym for respect. Respect for the people around you, respect for the occasion, or even respect for the dignity of self is now lost to the wind. I’m done with this thread, but am very heartened that our priests are being bolder in speaking out and signs are appearing on more doors of Catholic Churches.
Speaking for the dress code for Mass, 2008:
Some on this thread don’t seem to understand that in one sense, it isn’t about the clothes at all, but that the outer being reflects our souls, who we really are. What insult we bring upon ourselves when we don’t dress with dignity for Mass – for the Lord!
But apparently the word casual dress has a politically correct dimension now and is an antonym for respect. Respect for the people around you, respect for the occasion, or even respect for the dignity of self is now lost to the wind. I’m done with this thread, but am very heartened that our priests are being bolder in speaking out and signs are appearing on more doors of Catholic Churches.
Speaking for the dress code for Mass, 2008:
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colmywaykurtz
Guest
Money, too—as I recall, tailoring was not traditionally a profession that offered its services gratis.No, Rich. That would require the inconvenience of time.
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antonivs
Guest
source: Matthew 6:25
Getting people to Mass for the good of their souls is much more important than what they are wearing. And if the body is more important than clothes, how much more so the soul?
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Sarabande
Guest
True. It’s definitely not cheap, especially where I live. Prices are understandable as well considering the cost of living here.Money, too—as I recall, tailoring was not traditionally a profession that offered its services gratis.
In regards to the person in question and to anyone else who is in a similar situation, this is what I usually do. Almost every weekend I usually have to go from one thing to another. Sometimes they require me to dress nicely as I am often in a church for a music job or at a private party where I am hired to give a recital or other more formal events where I need to wear an evening gown or a costume for a show. Then there are also times where I’m going to a much more casual event for family from a more formal or semi-formal event… or just from mass. Sundays, if I’m not hired to sing in the afternoon, I will just be going to my parents’ home for our typical, weekly Sunday afternoons and dinners. The last thing I want to be dressed in is a skirt or dress or dress heels. Their home is also completely in the opposite direction from where I live. It takes me about 35-40 to get to the church where I work and then another 30-40 minutes to where my parents live, so going back and forth is a complete waste of gas, mileage and time.
Because of the nature of what I do, most of the time I don’t have time to go from one place, back home, then to another place. What do I do then? I always bring a change of clothes. Over the years, I’ve mastered the “art”
of being able to change in an out of outfits as quickly as possible and to pack a change of clothes as lightly as possible. If I’m at a church, I bring the clothes with me. Immediately after the mass or wedding, I’ll go to the restroom and change, or go into the choir room and change in and out of my clothes before the 3-5 minute postlude is finished. No matter where I am, I always find a place to change and it only takes a few minutes. It isn’t really an inconvenience either because it takes just as long to use the bathroom for other reasons than to get change.I realise this can’t work for everyone as some people aren’t as quick and limber or are maybe a little too large to change in a bathroom stall, but it could be helpful for some who have very busy weekends.
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MissRose73
Guest
I am not asking for a return to the 1950’s where most men and boys wore a 3 piece suit and dress shoes, and women/girls wore a dress or skirt/dress top-blouse with dress shoes combo with a hat.
I would rather see people come to Mass not wearing:
*Athletic wear
*Concert tees
*Tee shirts with vulgar sayings, concert tees, etc
*Tight / Revealing clothing of any fabric
*Excessive showing of chest hair (men) and cleavage (women)
*Sleeveless and/or backless tops mainly spaghetti strap or tank styles as examples
*Dresses / skirts for women that are above the top of the knees
*Flip flop sandals
*Grungy looking tennis shoes
*Shorts that do not reach the knees, and/or tight-revealing
I would rather people come wearing:
*Nice tops (not sleeveless) – not tight & revealing, no slogan tees of any kind - I would give a pass if they have a religious theme
*Pants/slacks that are not tight/revealing. Dress pants and khaki styles preferred over jeans/denim but jeans/denim is okay only if not tight / revealing plus paired up with a decent shirt.
*For females who choose to wear dresses or skirts - not tight & revealing. Fabrics don’t matter. Length should reach at minimum the top of the knee cap, but knee length and below is much more modest. Blouses/shirts worn with skirts not to be sleeveless / backless and not be revealing cleavage / backless.
*I don’t mind those who have to come to Mass in work uniforms as long as they are not tight, short and/or revealing
*Males to make sure headwear is removed in the sanctuary especially baseball caps.
*Females do not have to remove head wear / head coverings but those who wear them should try not to wear something that stands out in terms of a hat. No issues with those who veil in any way or wear a small yet tasteful hat.
*Those for health reasons who need to wear athletic shoes, please make sure they are decently neat and clean if at all possible.
I would rather see people come to Mass not wearing:
*Athletic wear
*Concert tees
*Tee shirts with vulgar sayings, concert tees, etc
*Tight / Revealing clothing of any fabric
*Excessive showing of chest hair (men) and cleavage (women)
*Sleeveless and/or backless tops mainly spaghetti strap or tank styles as examples
*Dresses / skirts for women that are above the top of the knees
*Flip flop sandals
*Grungy looking tennis shoes
*Shorts that do not reach the knees, and/or tight-revealing
I would rather people come wearing:
*Nice tops (not sleeveless) – not tight & revealing, no slogan tees of any kind - I would give a pass if they have a religious theme
*Pants/slacks that are not tight/revealing. Dress pants and khaki styles preferred over jeans/denim but jeans/denim is okay only if not tight / revealing plus paired up with a decent shirt.
*For females who choose to wear dresses or skirts - not tight & revealing. Fabrics don’t matter. Length should reach at minimum the top of the knee cap, but knee length and below is much more modest. Blouses/shirts worn with skirts not to be sleeveless / backless and not be revealing cleavage / backless.
*I don’t mind those who have to come to Mass in work uniforms as long as they are not tight, short and/or revealing
*Males to make sure headwear is removed in the sanctuary especially baseball caps.
*Females do not have to remove head wear / head coverings but those who wear them should try not to wear something that stands out in terms of a hat. No issues with those who veil in any way or wear a small yet tasteful hat.
*Those for health reasons who need to wear athletic shoes, please make sure they are decently neat and clean if at all possible.
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