Sunday Best? Church Leaders Blush at "Casual Catholic" Dress

[wayward]

Sometimes I dress up for Mass, and sometimes I don’t.

But I’ll be honest. When I do dress up for Mass, most times it is not Jesus that I am dressing up for - it is my vanity and my pride.

I know that Jesus will accept and love me no matter what I am wearing, but sometimes I just get so worried about what the people around me are thinking about how I dress, and so I take all the time that I should spend praying and preparing my soul and my heart for Jesus and spend it on preparing my physical appearance for my fellow parishioners - and for my pride, which just loves receiving compliments on my looks.

I think when we argue about how you would dress for the Queen vs how you would dress for Jesus, we are forgetting that Jesus is not the Queen of England. When going to visit the Queen of England, there is no need to pray beforehand, to struggle for the ability to forgive others who have hurt us, to search our hearts and wonder if we are worthy or not to see her - and the Queen of England cannot forgive our sins, set us right with God, rescue us from our own fallen nature.

The Queen cannot even judge us based on the true content of our hearts, because she cannot know that - but she might judge us based on our attire and on how we present ourselves, because she is only human and those are human considerations.

On the flip side, when we go to see Jesus, we are going to see someone who does not need our attire to judge us by, because He can see into our hearts and knows what is truly there. We do not need to dress our bodies up for Jesus - although that might be nice, and would not hurt if we do it for the right reasons - but we need to be very careful that our hearts are clean - we need to pray, and experience true remorse for our sins, and seek to be in true union with the Church.

I agree that modesty is important, but aside from that - I do not know why anyone around me at Mass has chosen to dress as they have, I only know my own reasons for wearing what I do. So I cannot comment on what other people choose to wear or not wear.

I have to say, I admire the faith of the college student who somehow manages to get to daily Mass on a regular basis. What commitment, to be there even when it requires rushing across campus and risking the possibility of being late to another class - wouldn’t it be easier to just take that brief amount free time between two classes and enjoy a quick lunch, or look over your notes from your previous or upcoming class? I think that perhaps, those sacrifices show that they are concerned enough about Jesus and probably don’t need to worry too much about how dressy their clothes are.

wayward

 

[jmcrae]

So if you were to get to visit with the Queen of England or the President of the USA, what would you wear? Suit and tie or khaki’s and a polo shirt or jeans and a t-shirt?

That’s a dangerous question - out of one hundred children, my god son was the only one to wear a nice suit to go and meet the Queen. The rest of the children were dressed as if to go to the play park.

Guess who the Queen invited in for iced tea and Devonshire cream cookies? My god son had a lovely time.

 

[curlycool89]

and I guess a 2 oz shopping bag is too much to carry as well. You seem to have made up your mind, but I still maintain that if people were given $100 at the end of each day for carrying a little extra, they’d do it with a smile on their face. With dressing up for Mass, they can’t be bothered to.

1. Because you haven’t really provided a why in the equation.
2. Carrying a shopping bag would be worse than a duffle bag because plastic shopping bags are terrible.
3. You’re comparison is unrealistic. You’re creating a straw man, and a pretty obvious one at that. If you don’t know what a straw man is, look it up. I’m not going to feed.

Look, maybe it’s been a while since you’ve been at college, but you don’t carry extra stuff around if you don’t have to. I dread to ask what you would have someone do if they’ve just discovered the chapel one day or are brought by a friend. I guess we should start tell people to only bring well-dressed friends; the modestly dressed but not “presentable” (by your definition) people are not good enough.

you’re making a statement for what all priests say? Bold of you

No, the priests who preside at daily Mass at the chapel on campus. I’m good friends with all of them (4), and one of them did give me a correction on something just the other day. Nothing about the clothes though.

It’s a huge statement about what a community values, and in that respect, it’s legitimate to raise concerns.

Or put another way, the community doesn’t value playing the “who can dress the best” game that does go on at other places and in some circles (this is called consumerism or “keeping up with the Jones’.”).

 

[jmcrae]

On the flip side, when we go to see Jesus, we are going to see someone who does not need our attire to judge us by, because He can see into our hearts and knows what is truly there. We do not need to dress our bodies up for Jesus - although that might be nice, and would not hurt if we do it for the right reasons - but we need to be very careful that our hearts are clean - we need to pray, and experience true remorse for our sins, and seek to be in true union with the Church.

What about the parable of the wedding guests, in which Jesus makes it clear that those not properly dressed for the “wedding” (the Mass is “the wedding feast of the Lamb” according to the Book of Revelation) will be ejected from the Kingdom of God? It seems as if Jesus does actually care about what we wear, as well as the state of our souls - or rather, that how we choose to dress for Mass is just as much a moral decision as how we choose to react to people that we don’t like very well.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Or put another way, the community doesn’t value playing the “who can dress the best” game that does go on at other places and in some circles (this is called consumerism or “keeping up with the Jones’.”).

Not that’s not what is being valued. That’s your prejudice, and the prejudice of many others who make excuses for extreme informality 24/7/365, that you ascribe unseemly superficial motives to anyone who values an occasion (not a designer or consumerist mentality, but respect for an occasion). In fact, it is people on this thread, and an earlier one, who are playing the “who can dress the worst” game that is somehow being equated with a superior level of sincerity and spirituality. I’ll repeat what I said to another poster:

THIS, and not what you quoted, was the key point of my post. What you quoted referred to precisely this, and not to “some circles”:

Do you not understand that this is just as judgmental/stereotyping as is the assumption that people who are inappropriately dressed have hearts “right with God”?

Neither can be asserted, and the thread is not about whose heart is and is not right with God. That’s for Him to determine. What we as Catholics have every right to express, is our opinion of what it does to a community atmosphere, not to mention to the Witness which may be affecting a potential catechumen in the pew, for Massgoers to seem to make a point of wearing as inappropriate attire as possible. Our spiritual inclinations are not centered on others, but they can be affected by others, in the sense that it can be both demoralizing and distracting to worship with a community which puts so little effort, so little consciousness, into wearing anything different on the one day of the week that is truly distinguishable from all the others. – and worse, making a point to dress down.

 

[curlycool89]

What about the parable of the wedding guests, in which Jesus makes it clear that those not properly dressed for the “wedding” (the Mass is “the wedding feast of the Lamb” according to the Book of Revelation) will be ejected from the Kingdom of God?

Another equally valid interpretation of that is that “dressed” is a metaphor for how prepared their souls are for the end. The Banquet of the Lamb could come at any time for any person (ie their death), so it is our jobs to be prepared (in our souls) for that to happen at any time (it’s similar to the parable of the women with the lanterns and oil).

That’s why it ends with “many are invited, but few are chosen”. All are invited to the Feast (as in “the many” of the new Consecration prayer), but some by their own free choice reject that invitation and therefore exclude themselves from being chosen. This final line doesn’t make much sense if Christ is talking about literal clothing.

Also, obviously our clothes do not come with us when we die, and I highly doubt that St. Peter will conduct a dress test at the Pearly Gates.

Not that’s not what is being valued. That’s your prejudice, and the prejudice of many others who make excuses for extreme informality 24/7/365, that you ascribe unseemly superficial motives to anyone who values an occasion (not a designer or consumerist mentality, but respect for an occasion). In fact, it is people on this thread, and an earlier one, who are playing the “who can dress the worst” game that is somehow being equated with a superior level of sincerity and spirituality.

I’m not saying dress in your sloppiest clothes. Wear something modest that won’t affect normal people (there was once a poster in a forum that told people they should be covering their forearms. Nobody understood that one).

What I’ve seen on this thread, and most others about clothing, is people conflating clothing with mental status.

Personally, I have a beard, and I’m betting this set off alarm bells in at least half a dozen people because beards are obviously only for unkept people and Franciscans. That is of course a stereotype. But I guess stereotypes are hard for people to break because they’d have to look at individual situations instead of just lumping together. Because, you know, lumping together is easier and takes less effort. And you can make yourself feel morally superior of course. But there’s definitely none of that happening here.

Our spiritual inclinations are not centered on others, but they can be affected by others

If someone is being affect by others, for the most part it is their problem. Stop watching others to see if they’re as pious as you or live up to your “standards” (this is a general comment to all the posters: your own opinion does not doctrine make. Stop equating your own piety with capital T truth). Keep your eyes on Jesus.

 

[Holly3278]

I always wear jeans and a nice t-shirt to Mass. I really don’t have anything much better than that.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Also, obviously our clothes do not come with us when we die, and I highly doubt that St. Peter will conduct a dress test at the Pearly Gates.

Was never said. Straw Man # 85.

What I’ve seen on this thread, and most others about clothing, is people conflating clothing with mental status.

You bet: actually, spiritual status. People who dress in ultra-casual clothes are genuine, holy, real, unpretentious, close to God, and not phony. People who spend a little time on looking slightly different from their trip to the grocery store (but without pretension, and with modesty), are the ones being labeled, looked down upon, accused of “looking at others,” and all kinds of comments on the states of their souls.

And you can make yourself feel morally superior of course.

Except that I’m not the one doing that

Stop watching others to see if they’re as pious as you or live up to your “standards”.

Which is what those who criticize decent clothing are doing. I’m not the one doing the labeling, sir. You are.

Have a nice night, though. Good night.

 

[CMatt25]

I go casual to Mass. Nice/clean jeans/shorts (depending on weather) and a nice/clean t-shirt. I typically go to Mass on Saturday nights and the vast majority of the time I’m going someplace afterwards and don’t have time to go home and change. I pretty much only wear suits to job interviews. If you didn’t have to, I wouldn’t, but the interviewer could and would likely reject you if you didn’t dress like that and God won’t. I hate wearing suits. There’s no originality to them, they all look the same and they’re all quite uncomfortable and hot.

And that is exactly the problem I find when folks try comparing God to secular societal expections and what one might wear to dinner or to a job or interview or to meet the Quenn of England or POTUS.

 

[CMatt25]

Why not? When I have to appear in court, I always wear a suit and tie and dress shoes. Now, I know that Jesus will understand if I come to Mass wearing wife-beaters, low-slung cut-off jeans showing part of the crack, and sneakers, but why is He to be the one dishonored while some traffic court judge is to be given greater respect?

I know this much. 40 years ago, a thread like this one would never appear anywhere.

I know nearly 40 yrs ago I and others were wearing dark blue bell bottom jeans to Mass at a small midwestern town parish, in a town where conservative values were popular and the Republican Party was the majority political party throughout the county as can be the case in small towns across the midwest. Some also came in suits. And a thread like this one would never have appeared because no one cared whether some of us wore jeans or if others wore suits.

 

[CMatt25]

Quote:
How about instead, we wear clean clothes that cover our bodies? Pants and a shirt works.

No one, on any of these CAF threads on this subject has suggested anything more than this.

Then you and I are not reading the same Catholic Answers forum. Because sure they have. On this thread alone you only need to get to the 3rd post to see someone complain about the "parade of **jeans, short-sleeves and/or t-shirts **.

Jeans are denim pants and shirts have sleeves.

 

[CMatt25]

Basically, the argument against more casual clothes seems to boils down to “Why don’t you love Jesus enough?”, which is definitely judging.

:clapping:

I’ve had Episcopalian priests tell me some come in shorts and sneakers to their Sat evening services, coming from their day. Others if they are going somewhere after where societal expectations might be a bit dressier attire, then they might come a bit dressier. It all depends on where a person was before Mass and where they might be going after. If you’re headed to a Journey concert right after Mass, you probably won’t come to Mass in a suit.

And the one priest told me, no one cares how you are dressed on the outside. It’s what is in the heart on the inside that matters.

I’ve had other Protestant pastors tell me something similar.

When I read these threads on CAF it sometimes makes me wonder why I go to Catholic Mass at all if folks are so concerned about what I have on. Hopefully they don’t make me the center of attention.

 

[CMatt25]

priests (and this is true where I am) also burden us with strictly folk-guitar Masses, with confession not emphasized, everyone goes up for communion, the laity are all over the alter, etc. But I digress.

I don’t feel any less Catholic for having been away during that time

I miss guitar Mass.

Anyway I never said you were less Catholic. In fact the Church would give the Catholic answer that you were, are and have always remained and could identify as a Catholic! I just recently started a thread on the Apologetics forum and the answer seems to be once a Catholic, always a Catholic at least in the eyes of the Church.

What I said is since you were not attending regularly and now are which is great btw, then if I was in your shoes I would just be happy to see those in jeans, etc, there.

But YMMV. In any case God bless you Andrew. And peace.

 

[CMatt25]

P.S. (sorry I ran so long)

Oh well…interesting discussion folks and while venting a bit, I try to maintain charity. In fact, the worst dressed person (I try to tell myself) **at least is in a pew that day **unlike so many other Catholics who have abandoned the Church or barely ever go.

Oh I just got to your next post.

 

[CMatt25]

What we as Catholics have every right to express, is our opinion of what it does to a community atmosphere, not to mention to the Witness which may be affecting a potential catechumen in the pew, for Massgoers to seem to make a point of wearing as inappropriate attire as possible. Our spiritual inclinations are not centered on others, but they can be affected by others, in the sense that it can be both demoralizing and distracting to worship with a community which puts so little effort, so little consciousness, into wearing anything different on the one day of the week that is truly distinguishable from all the others. – and worse, making a point to dress down. It’s a huge statement about what a community values, and in that respect, it’s legitimate to raise concerns.

True. Catholics of every attire have the right to express their opinions. Now myself I have attended the parish that is territorial to the Catholics in my neighborhood. It seems more formal to me with EMHC wearing robes and ushers in suits. And truthfully I in a sense find it spiritually more “demoralizing and distracting” to use your terms than when I attend Mass at a more informal church where EMHC don’t wear formal robes and ushers are not all dressed in suits. YMMV.

 

[ishii]

I think some of you are missing the point. Its about effort. As another poster remarked, 40 years ago we wouldn’t have seen a debate about this. If you would dress up for a job interview, then how hard is it to dress up for the most important day of the week? Atleast get out of the t-shirt and jeans or shorts. Where a pair of slacks and a dress shirt. Show some respect. Wearing jeans and a t- shirt or shorts is about laziness and lack of respect for what’s happening at mass.

Ishii

 

[ChiRho]

1. Because you haven’t really provided a why in the equation.
2. Carrying a shopping bag would be worse than a duffle bag because plastic shopping bags are terrible.
3. You’re comparison is unrealistic. You’re creating a straw man, and a pretty obvious one at that. If you don’t know what a straw man is, look it up. I’m not going to feed.

Look, maybe it’s been a while since you’ve been at college, but you don’t carry extra stuff around if you don’t have to. I dread to ask what you would have someone do if they’ve just discovered the chapel one day or are brought by a friend. I guess we should start tell people to only bring well-dressed friends; the modestly dressed but not “presentable” (by your definition) people are not good enough.

I graduated last month, and have also taken Logic 101, so I know what a strawman is

1. What are you referring to with the “why” in the equation?
2. Can you please be more specific with what “terrible” means?
3. Why is the comparison unrealistic?

No, the priests who preside at daily Mass at the chapel on campus. I’m good friends with all of them (4), and one of them did give me a correction on something just the other day. Nothing about the clothes though.

Some priests might not have a problem with it. But some probably are too scared that people will get so sensitive (you, and others in this thread) when it is suggested they wont dress better that they won’t come back to Mass,which they obviously don’t want. So don’t take the absence of criticism to = their approval. That’s also a logical fallacy, I’m sure you’re aware: If A then B. ~ A, therefore ~ B.

Or put another way, the community doesn’t value playing the “who can dress the best” game that does go on at other places and in some circles (this is called consumerism or “keeping up with the Jones’.”).

I’ve also never advocated dressing up to show off to others. You seem to have the idea that if someone is not wearing fine clothing to Mass, myself and others would rather see them thrown out into the abyss than to enter into a church. This just isn’t the case. Some poor people can’t afford clothes. Some people don’t understand the importance of taking the effort to look good, that it’s a self-sacrificing thing. But the attitude of “I’m there, aren’t I?” is lazy to me, and the idea that “God doesn’t care” so I can show up late, sing off key, wear casual clothes, leave a little early doesn’t sit well.

You want to turn this into a me vs everyone, but it just isn’t the case. I’m not advocating turning people away, or that its better that they don’t come to Mass. It’s surprising that simply advocating a person to do something that would require a bit of effort and planning is met with some vitriol

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

It’s about effort. As another poster remarked, 40 years ago we wouldn’t have seen a debate about this. ~~~ how hard is it to dress up for the most important day of the week? At least get out of the t-shirt and jeans or shorts. Wear a pair of slacks and a dress shirt. Show some respect. Wearing jeans and a t- shirt or shorts is about laziness and lack of respect for what’s happening at mass.

You’d think that some posters here are so poor that jeans and a t-shirt are all that they can afford. If they can afford that, they can afford slacks or skirt and a dress shirt/blouse. I sometimes attend a black parish in my city, and I can assure you that the parishioners are not rich. But, it is rare to see a man or woman dressed in other than their “Sunday” clothing.

“Jesus doesn’t care how I dress, no matter how sloppily,” is nonsense. - and laziness.

 

[Mungling]

Honestly, how I dress at Mass will inevitably depend on how everyone else dressed. My default dress is a suit and tie (I do agree one should dress nicely at the Mass when possible) but at my Universities student Mass I dress more casual. Why? Everyone else dresses casual and to come in with a suit and tie attracts unnecessary attention to one’s self. I’m reminded of Jesus’ warning to avoid praying in the open streets but rather to pray in private.

 

[antonivs]

Do you not understand that this is just as judgmental/stereotyping as is the assumption that people who are inappropriately dressed have hearts “right with God”?

Neither can be asserted, and the thread is not about whose heart is and is not right with God. That’s for Him to determine. What we as Catholics have every right to express, is our opinion of what it does to a community atmosphere, not to mention to the Witness which may be affecting a potential catechumen in the pew, for Massgoers to seem to make a point of wearing as inappropriate attire as possible. Our spiritual inclinations are not centered on others, but they can be affected by others, in the sense that it can be both demoralizing and distracting to worship with a community which puts so little effort, so little consciousness, into wearing anything different on the one day of the week that is truly distinguishable from all the others. – and worse, making a point to dress down. It’s a huge statement about what a community values, and in that respect, it’s legitimate to raise concerns.

I didn’t stereotype anyone. I didn’t make a single statement about how likely someone is to have their heart right with God based on how they were dressed. My point was entirely that it is their heart that counts and I don’t think God really cares how we are dressed.

I am extremely uncomfortable in dress clothes. For me the choice is commit a mortal sin by neglecting my Sunday Obligation or wearing jeans to Mass.

If a potential catechumen is turned off by my jeans and sneakers, how serious could they have been?