Sunday Best? Church Leaders Blush at "Casual Catholic" Dress

[jmcrae]

Hi Tantum, I’ve read your earlier post multiple times and what I think perhaps Riley was wondering about, but I know I am, is this.

When you say things like “a lot of people”, “many”, or when you say, “on the whole… there are going to be MORE people… who will be both inwardly and outwardly casual”, we or at least I am just wondering if this is a special gift or ability you have to jud… er I mean… to determine the inward heart? And can you on the whole do this from your pew with an accurate level of certainty for many of those you see walk through the doors?

But I suppose only you can answer to that. In any case Tantum, may God bless you and each of us here and His peace be with each of us always.

Well, the people in ripped jeans are also often the people who just flop their hand around a bit, instead of making a recognizable Sign of the Cross (I am not talking about those who are paralyzed from the neck down, but people who are otherwise normal), and they are often the same people who seem to be daydreaming when it comes time to kneel for the Consecration.

 

[irishpatrick]

If I was at St. Peter’s…yea dockers. If I had a personal meeting with the Pope…probably buy one inexpensive dress. The President…yea dockers…don’t care if I meet him.

Aside from the Pope…yea that’s it. But I’m not meeting the Pope everyday…which would require more then one dress. I am however attending Mass everyday…

Does that bug you? I would ask why?

I think we are to give the Lord our best in everything (and I admit freely that I fall short of that on a regular basis). Almost everyone would admit they’d dress well to see the Pope, but most of us won’t do that for Jesus. It is a strange reality.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I think we are to give the Lord our best in everything (and I admit freely that I fall short of that on a regular basis). Almost everyone would admit they’d dress well to see the Pope, but most of us won’t do that for Jesus. It is a strange reality.

Not so much. We are external people. Seeing the Pope is a once in a lifetime event. If it was such that I saw the Pope everyday, I wouldn’t be dressing up everyday for it…nor could I afford to.

Yes, I see Jesus everyday to go to Mass…and I do try to give him my best…sacraficing time and my lunch to go see Him. Giving your best for the Lord does not necessarily mean putting on “Sunday” best.

And you also have variying degress of what is your best? For a lawyer who has had to buy several suits…that might mean one thing. For the retiree at home…another thing. But I think both the lawyer and the retiree get to decide what is in their heart as they approach Him.

 

[jmcrae]

If I was at St. Peter’s…yea dockers.

What are “dockers”?

If I had a personal meeting with the Pope…probably buy one inexpensive dress. The President…yea dockers…don’t care if I meet him.

Let’s rephrase. Say you wanted to have a productive meeting with the Pope or with the President, in which you find out what he wants, and you get what you want in return.

Does that change the equation at all? I mean, if you don’t care whether he likes you or not, you can wear your pyjamas to the meeting. But if you care about his opinion of you, and you care what will be written about you in the social pages about the meeting for your mother to read, then I think you would also care to dress appropriately for the occasion.

 

[curlycool89]

which is more presentable for a holy occasion: formal attire or casual attire?

Oh look, a false dichotomy. It’s not like you see those every day.

Wait, what am I talking about? You see them every day here, because apparently people failed at Debate 101. False dichotomies do not an argument make. That’s just basic logic.

Your point of view of trying to tie in the vestments of the priest to wanting people to dress up is a lukewarm arguement. Some priests have VERY fancy attire, others not so much and can be quite plain and even considered “casual” by some standards. They are always modest though, which is what everyone on either side of this discussion in this thread is agreeing on.

I know a priest who dresses very casually. It made him extremely approachable, he gave great talks on spirituality, and also celebrated a reverent Mass.

 

[ChiRho]

Oh look, a false dichotomy. It’s not like you see those every day.

Wait, what am I talking about? You see them every day here, because apparently people failed at Debate 101. False dichotomies do not an argument make. That’s just basic logic.

I’m not sure you understand what a false dichotomy is, but you certainly understand how to make snotty posts.

There are essentially two sides in this thread: people advocating more formal wear, and those accepting of more casual wear. Given this, if I am to make a comparison between the two, doesn’t it make sense that I describe one camp as “formal attire” and the other as “casual attire”? Just because something is split into two (aka a dichotomy) does not make it a false one, even if you disagree with the intent of the poster who made the dichotomy.

 

[curlycool89]

I’m not sure you understand what a false dichotomy is, but you certainly understand how to make snotty posts.

A false dichotomy is exactly what you have done. From Wikipedia:

A false dichotomy is a type of logical fallacy that involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are additional options (sometimes shades of grey between the extremes)

Now we’ll review what you posted:

which is more presentable for a holy occasion: formal attire or casual attire?

Textbook definition. You said “pick A or B” when A and B are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but also without even defining what A and B are.

What if someone wore a suit jacket or a blazer and jeans? I think I just heard somebody’s head exploded. I’ve seen it done, so where does that fall? A suit jacket would probably go under formal, and most people put jeans under casual (although it is debatable, about.com says that some companies consider dress jeans to be business casual).

Well, above you only gave “casual” OR “formal”, so what do you do with this? You can make an argument for it being either way. What about suit pants and a t-shirt? A full tuxedo and running shoes? Jeans and a t-shirt with a tie and dress shoes? One dress shoe and one running shoe? Suit pants, suit jacket, and a t-shirt? (I realize these are all guys outfits, but I think it would be creepy if I, a guy, starting going on about women’s outfits)

Yes, I’m being a little ridicules, but I’m trying to point out the fact that you did indeed pose a false dichotomy.

I must admit that I’m laughing inside trying to anticipate whether or not some of those options above will be received better or worse.

 

[ChiRho]

A false dichotomy is exactly what you have done. From Wikipedia:

Now we’ll review what you posted:

Textbook definition. You said “pick A or B” when A and B are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but also without even defining what A and B are.

What if someone wore a suit jacket or a blazer and jeans? I think I just heard somebody’s head exploded. I’ve seen it done, so where does that fall? A suit jacket would probably go under formal, and most people put jeans under casual (although it is debatable, about.com says that some companies consider dress jeans to be business casual).

Well, above you only gave “casual” OR “formal”, so what do you do with this? You can make an argument for it being either way. What about suit pants and a t-shirt? A full tuxedo and running shoes? Jeans and a t-shirt with a tie and dress shoes? One dress shoe and one running shoe? Suit pants, suit jacket, and a t-shirt? (I realize these are all guys outfits, but I think it would be creepy if I, a guy, starting going on about women’s outfits)

Yes, I’m being a little ridicules, but I’m trying to point out the fact that you did indeed pose a false dichotomy.

I must admit that I’m laughing inside trying to anticipate whether or not some of those options above will be received better or worse.

Since other posters have made it clear what they considered to be formal, and others clear what they considered to be casual, and most people themselves have a good idea of what formal and casual are, so for all intents and purposes, A and B are mutually exclusive, because no one thinks that wearing a tuxedo and sneakers is formal, or a band t shirt with shorts and black leather dress shoes is casual. It’s absurd to the extent that it actually bolsters my point: that no one dresses that way, and such combinations of clothes are laughable because no one thinks they are appropriate. And if you think me not considering someone wearing one dress shoe and one running shoe is a false dichotomy, I can’t help you. There is a huge difference between not considering viable options and not considering absurd ones. The two main options are a preference towards encouraging formal wear, and a preference that casual wear is ok. The option of wearing a top hat, a tuxedo shirt and blue jean overalls is not worth considering.

Now, with that, I don’t see what is so difficult to answer about the question: What is more presentable for a holy occasion (Mass), formal attire or casual attire? If you really want to allow for every possible choice, you can say “more formal attire” or “more casual attire”. But as I see it, there are three answers: 1. formal. 2. casual. 3. they are equally presentable. What options have I left out?

 

[PatriceA]

Since other posters have made it clear what they considered to be formal, and others clear what they considered to be casual, and most people themselves have a good idea of what formal and casual are, so for all intents and purposes, A and B are mutually exclusive, because no one thinks that wearing a tuxedo and sneakers is formal, or a band t shirt with shorts and black leather dress shoes is casual. It’s absurd to the extent that it actually bolsters my point: that no one dresses that way, and such combinations of clothes are laughable because no one thinks they are appropriate. And if you think me not considering someone wearing one dress shoe and one running shoe is a false dichotomy, I can’t help you. There is a huge difference between not considering viable options and not considering absurd ones. The two main options are a preference towards encouraging formal wear, and a preference that casual wear is ok. The option of wearing a top hat, a tuxedo shirt and blue jean overalls is not worth considering.

Now, with that, I don’t see what is so difficult to answer about the question: What is more presentable for a holy occasion (Mass), formal attire or casual attire? If you really want to allow for every possible choice, you can say “more formal attire” or “more casual attire”. But as I see it, there are three answers: 1. formal. 2. casual. 3. they are equally presentable. What options have I left out?

You forgot option #4. a person that is in a state of grace and approaches the holy occasion (Mass) with a true love of the Eucharist.

Which has nothing to do with what the casual or formal dress they choose to wear.

 

[ChiRho]

Which has nothing to do with what the casual or formal dress they choose to wear.

And therefore doesn’t actually address my question.

Of course the reverence and state of grace are important. Most important, in fact. But they are completely irrelevant to the discussion regarding attire in the portion you quoted. It is possible to care about both the issues of attire and reverence without excluding or short-changing one or the other. But that doesn’t mean they always have to be considered simultaneously. Please address the latter in a separate thread, titled appropriately

 

[PatriceA]

And therefore doesn’t actually address my question.

Of course the reverence and state of grace are important. Most important, in fact. But they are completely irrelevant to this discussion. It is possible to care about both issues without excluding or short-changing one or the other.

Neither are irrelevant at all, reverence and state of grace are THE most important aspects of approaching the Eucharist. Dress becomes less relevant, that’s the point.

 

[ChiRho]

Dress becomes less relevant, that’s the point.

But dress does not become irrelevant, especially in a thread specifically discussing it. If you want to discuss how important reverence and state of grace are, please start a thread regarding them. There are plenty of irreverent attitudes of disregard for the state of grace to discuss. But it does not have to be constantly be brought up as if the second people consider whether one type of dress is more appropriate than the other, they forget that reverence and state of grace are the most important. We are adults, and we can consider more than one issue at a time without excluding others, or having to be reminded that others exist.

 

[PatriceA]

But dress does not become irrelevant, especially in a thread specifically discussing it. If you want to discuss how important reverence and state of grace are, please start a thread regarding them. There are plenty of irreverent attitudes of disregard for the state of grace to discuss. But it does not have to be constantly be brought up as if the second people consider whether one type of dress is more appropriate than the other, they forget that reverence and state of grace are the most important. We are adults, and we can consider more than one issue at a time without excluding others, or having to be reminded that others exist.

There is no need to start a new thread, until you placed the way a person dresses BEFORE the state of grace or the reverence of all the parishoners that attend Mass. You are the one that is trying to place more reverence on a parishoner’s choice of clothing before everything else.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Patrice, no one on this thread, including Chi, has suggested that dress is more important. In fact he/she just reiterated the opposite, twice in a row. That does not mean that the care with which we present ourselves is meaningless, irrelevant, and we should all be indifferent to what we wear. We witness to each other; Mass is not just a “Jesus and me” event. It is a conscious coming-together to worship and celebrate, in community. Our personal thoughtfulness – distinguishing this moment from the very different ultra-casual moments in our week – provides mutual benefit to all of us in keeping the Mass top of mind for the rest of our week as well.

Someone described earlier on the thread what he or she wears, as basically a “uniform.” Ditto for me. Not glamorous, just “a uniform.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

You are the one that is trying to place more reverence on a parishoner’s choice of clothing before everything else.

Gosh. Straw Man #92.

It was never said, or implied. We’re not talking about anyone’s state of grace, which is not improved by decent clothing nor improved by inappropriate clothing.

 

[ChiRho]

There is no need to start a new thread, until you placed the way a person dresses BEFORE the state of grace or the reverence of all the parishoners that attend Mass. You are the one that is trying to place more reverence on a parishoner’s choice of clothing before everything else.

I never placed the importance of dress above reverence, you just perceive it as such. Please disprove this if you can, but you have me quoted several times since you took us on this tangent saying I agree with you on reverence, so that will be difficult to do.

And that is why I explained in no uncertain terms that it is possible to care for two issues the amount they deserve to be cared for, and not to neglect one or the other.

You are discussing an issue that is irrelevant to the purpose of this thread. I completely agree that reverence and state of grace are the most important. But that is not what I was discussing with the other poster. I was specifically discussing appearance.

 

[PatriceA]

Patrice, no one on this thread, including Chi, has suggested that dress is more important. In fact he/she just reiterated the opposite, twice in a row. That does not mean that the care with which we present ourselves is meaningless, irrelevant, and we should all be indifferent to what we wear. We witness to each other; Mass is not just a “Jesus and me” event. It is a conscious coming-together to worship and celebrate, in community. Our personal thoughtfulness – distinguishing this moment from the very different ultra-casual moments in our week – provides mutual benefit to all of us in keeping the Mass top of mind for the rest of our week as well.

Someone described earlier on the thread what he or she wears, as basically a “uniform.” Ditto for me. Not glamorous, just “a uniform.”

Sometimes coming together to worship and celebrate, in community, in “uniform” is CASUAL. Its not always formal everywhere around the world. One does not have to change their clothing to achieve “personal thoughfulness” to “distinguish” the occasion of the Mass from the other points in their everyday activity. Some people CAN achieve keeping the Mass at the top of their mind without being dressed differently from their other activities during the week.

 

[ringil]

No one has pointed out why they would be watching what other people are wearing instead of focussing on the Holy Mass.

Do those who observe what others are wearing feel that they may need to move their attention away from others and towards what is happening at the altar?

 

[ChiRho]

Some people CAN achieve keeping the Mass at the top of their mind without being dressed differently from their other activities during the week.

That is internal though. What Elizabeth was referencing specifically was

We witness to each other; Mass is not just a “Jesus and me” event. It is a conscious coming-together to worship and celebrate, in community.

It is remarkable how relaxed dress standards and relaxed attitudes in church seem to correlate, from my own observation. I’ve noticed more chit-chat before Mass, more people coming in late etc. Maybe when people stop taking dress seriously, they take other parts of the Mass less seriously. Or maybe it is the other way around. Either way, they probably both influence the other, which is why the Mass should be taken seriously, and attire which is befitting of a somber and holy occasion should be worn, lest others be influenced to think (often unconsciously) that Mass deserves the same clothes as watching sunday afternoon football on a couch.

 

[ChiRho]

No one has pointed out why they would be watching what other people are wearing instead of focussing on the Holy Mass.

Do those who observe what others are wearing feel that they may need to move their attention away from others and towards what is happening at the altar?

Most of this discussion has frankly been theoretical, but it’s not an indictment on someone else’s focus to notice things going on during the Mass. People should be careful to not place more importance on an issue than it deserves, but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.