Sweden defends no lockdown plan; says coronavirus immunity growing

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dvdjs said:
We will compare numbers after the pandemic runs it course. But how about we act with prudence in the meantime.
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Sure. But how about we let the experts in the field do their job and not spend so much time thinking we know better than them despite any formal education? 😃
 
Michaelangelo said:
But how about we let the experts in the field do their job and not spend so much time thinking we know better than them despite any formal education?
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There is obviously a difference of opinion among the experts in, for example Norway, versus Sweden.
I am not sure what you think my formal education is, but it may be better to inquire rather than assume.
 
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You are right. Mea maxia culpa. The very low likelyhood of you being trained in epidemiology made me sloppily assume you are a layperson. It is a result of my frustration of everybody and their cat are experts in all kind of fields nowdays. Despite not having even an hour of formal training.
 
dvdjs . . .
how about we act with prudence in the meantime.
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How about it?

I don’t think it is prudent to destroy the economy. (And then have to go out and face Corona Virus anyway).

I don’t think it is prudent to hold up countries with no immunity as exemplars of success.

I don’t think it is prudent of the media doing the nightly scare against Americans and not tell them the average age of death with Corona Virus is age 82.

That means that the average age of people who die with Corona Virus,
is virtually identical to the average age of people who die without Corona Virus.

Some of those freightened people are not getting their diabetic care, their cancer care, or paying their expenses because they are too freightened.

The scare tactics are self-destructive.

Far from people like me ignoring the mortality and morbidity associated with the virus, it is the scare-mongers in the media that are
ignoring the WHOLE PACKAGE of mortality and morbidity associated with the nightly freight night on the news (admittedly there are some notable exceptions in the media).
 
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I’m not sure how you get to that conclusion. Gotta eat to live, gotta work to eat. Most people are much better off taking their chances with the Rona than going without food, shelter, and medical care because they’ve been destroyed financially. Nobody is going to force those who want to remain quarantined to leave the house.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
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niceatheist:
So we’re back to expendable populations.
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So you favor a decimated economy to face the next wave?
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I’m saying restarting the economy should be a cautious thing, and that if you’re basically throwing people off a ledge to save yourself, you should just say that is what you want, and then square it with other positions you take on other controversial topics to explain how you aren’t taking a position that is essentially hypocritical.

So who should be sacrificed for the economy, and if money and security is the primary objective, well there are certain other things people do that cause great anger and consternation here, and yet those take partake of those activities use a similar justification.
 
niceatheist said:
I’m saying restarting the economy should be a cautious thing, and that if you’re basically throwing people off a ledge to save yourself, you should just say that is what you want, and then square it with other positions you take on other controversial topics to explain how you aren’t taking a position that is essentially hypocritical.

So who should be sacrificed for the economy, and if money and security is the primary objective, well there are certain other things people do that cause great anger and consternation here, and yet those take partake of those activities use a similar justification.
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No one is contesting that restarting should be a cautious thing. But at the same time, 50m unemployed is the deepest hole we’ve ever been in since the Great Depression. People’s habits have changed and they may stay changed for years as they did in the 1930’s. The restart will proceed slowly on its own anyway.

We already have evidence that many hospitals are bleeding cash, that many persons who need scans and checkups that require follow up care are being missed, that many municipal and state governments are finding their tax revenues falling very short with dire consequences in reduction in services and layoffs in that sector, that food supply chains are becoming severely affected. And so on. The Fed can print money, but they can’t print the economy.

Caution needs to be exercised, the vulnerable need to be protected, but the economy needed to restart yesterday. Or we won’t have an economy ready for the next wave. Does anyone really want that? The next wave coming but the hospital near you has closed and you have to go to one farther away? That’s the prospect I fear will happen near me if this keeps up. If the vaccine uber alles crowd has their way. Am I selfish for wanting the local economy to reopen so that hospital and the local doctors can stay in business?
 
And how do you know who is vulnerable? There’s growing evidence that even children can develop a serious inflammatory condition (something like Kawasaki’s disease) after a COVID-19 infection. When we’re not even sure who is vulnerable, what the course of the infection may be, how long immunity lasts after infection, and precisely what comorbidity may be involved, what to your mind is “cautious”? Again, who do you feel needs to be sacrificed here?
 
So you favor a decimated economy to face the next wave?
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Are we nearing decimation?
Werbenjagermenjensen said:
Most people are much better off taking their chances with the Rona than going without food, shelter, and medical care
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False binary.
 
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dvdjs said:
Of course itt does. But that does not constitute decimation. And that difference has an important effect our prospects for a speedy recovery.
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You are much more optimistic, I’ll give you that.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
So you favor a decimated economy to face the next wave?
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We’re not talking about it, because humans (and especially our current political climate) like to create a false belief that there are only two possible choices: open the economy up immediately, or quarantine the entire population indefinitely. There are of course, thousands of possibilities in between.

Why can’t a lock down continue with a WPA style program that provides work at home jobs for people who lose their current job?

Why can’t the federal government provide actual legal protections for people called back to work, who are exceptionally vulnerable to COVID-19, are afraid to go?

Why can’t a robust national testing program be put in place? (I’m old enough to remember when Trump said CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, and Target parking lots would be used for drive through testing on a massive scale).

The answer to every one of those questions is: we don’t want to. That’s pretty lame, and suggests to me that short term monetary gain really is the only meaningful metric.

In case we all already forgot the testing promises (There are no drive through testing centers in my state, or any of the bordering states):

 
dvdjs said:
Of course itt does. But that does not constitute decimation.
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You are the exception then.

Having depression level unemployment = decimation to most, certainly to the >20,000,000 people (and their families) who just lost their jobs in the USA.

This is compounded by every other country experiencing similar pain.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
You are much more optimistic
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If we can manage to convince people that it is necessary to maintain rigor in hygiene, sanitation, and physical distancing, we have a decent chance of a quick recovery in most areas.

Hospitality, tourism, and travel are major concerns. So are a number enterprises in which physical distancing is not really possible - medical, dental, beautician, … But these are in longer-term trouble because of the virus itself, not the lock down.

I live in a state that has taken major steps to open up. Not a big deal because the daily new cases are tiny. But summer tourism typically brings people form all over the US and all over the world. I expect huge pressure to remove the entry quarranntine. And if that happens, I expect a major outbreaks, probably worse than anything experienced in our region so far.
 
Good news, everyone - New York State is going to start a staggered by region reopening this Friday!
 
billsherman said:
Why can’t a lock down continue with a WPA style program that provides work at home jobs for people who lose their current job?
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What do you imagine for WPA work at home? Are we going to turn 10-20 million unemployed into telemarketers? Pakistan has sent people out to plant trees, but WPA work isn’t practical close to where most unemployed are living. Any projects that support social distancing are few and far between.

Seems far better to send them back to their old jobs, but with modest changes that reduce disease spread, like face masks and strong hygiene practices.
 
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