Sweden Moves to Ban Homeschooling for Religious or Philosophical Reasons

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mpi said:
Being illiterate is not a true handicap for many people. Again, you seem to be more focused on reading than saving the soul. Has the state shown a definitive one to one relationship between illiterate homeschooling parents and illiterate children? An illiterate parent can still direct the education and delegate reading instruction, if they choose to, to someone else (outside of the state run indoctrination centers).
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  1. I am more focused on reading than saving a soul.
  2. Being illiterate is a handicap for anyone in this society. The state has a duty to prevent any parent from inflicting this on their kid, regardless of religious belief.
  3. Religion is not an excuse for negligence.
 
WillieWonka said:
  1. The kid’s legal right to an education is not effected by the rule of subsidiarity or the pope. Nor is the state’s duty to enforce that right.
Nor is it the state’s right to interfer in the family unit. Give it creedance or not, the rule of subsidiary is a philosophy that has guided western civilization and thought for milenia.
  1. The state will interfere with the family unit if the kid’s right to an education is not being met.
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WillieWonka said:
  1. I am more focused on reading than saving a soul.
  2. Being illiterate is a handicap for anyone in this society. The state has a duty to prevent any parent from inflicting this on their kid, regardless of religious belief.
  3. Religion is not an excuse for negligence.
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FYI, a century of compulsory education has had devastating effects on literacy in america. If you look at Dept. of Defense records you will find that the percentages of drafties who were able to pass the basic literacy exam decreased with every war in the 20th century eventhough compulsory school attendance requirements increased in the same interval.
 
marci said:
FYI, a century of compulsory education has had devastating effects on literacy in america. If you look at Dept. of Defense records you will find that the percentages of drafties who were able to pass the basic literacy exam decreased with every war in the 20th century eventhough compulsory school attendance requirements increased in the same interval.
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That’s interesting. Where does that info come from? What bearing does it have on preventing incompetent parents from violating their kid’s right to an education?
 
WillieWonka said:
That’s interesting. Where does that info come from? What bearing does it have on preventing incompetent parents from violating their kid’s right to an education?
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That fact that public school does not necessarily equal well educated, literate individuals. Or are you unaware of the crisis in public education across this country?
 
WillieWonka said:
  1. I am more focused on reading than saving a soul.
  2. Being illiterate is a handicap for anyone in this society. The state has a duty to prevent any parent from inflicting this on their kid, regardless of religious belief.
  3. Religion is not an excuse for negligence.
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Item #1 says it all for me. You are on a Catholic website. If the moderators would let me do it I would post a reply that would be quite incendiary. But they probably wouldn’t let me do it. So I’ll settle for item #1 to be on full display for other Catholics to see.
 
mpi said:
W.r.t your last paragraph…did you ever think that the goal was to avoid some of the subjects taught in public school? Like sex ed, like accetance of the homosexual lifestyle, etc.

I homeschool and I do not teach my kids what the public school teaches. And I never will.
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Do you teach them to READ?? Do you teach them MATH?? Do you teach them SCIENCE??? News flash-those are taught in public school. Do you object to parents having at least a nodding acquaintance with those subjects before homeschooling???

Yes, the public school teaches sex ed, and if you want to keep your children from learning about sex then by all means homeschool. Yes, public schools do teach children not to hate homosexuals. If you want to teach your children to hate homosexuals, by all means homeschool.

Now, do you see how ridiculous hyperbole is? Do you see how annoying overdramatization is??

This is a perfect example of the hypersensitivity of some homeschoolers. God forbid anyone suggest that there should be some competency in basic subjects like Math, Reading and Science. Right away the screaming begins about taking away your rights to teach your children morality in the way you choose.
 
mkingdomlvr said:
Do you teach them to READ?? Do you teach them MATH?? Do you teach them SCIENCE??? News flash-those are taught in public school. Do you object to parents having at least a nodding acquaintance with those subjects before homeschooling???

Yes, the public school teaches sex ed, and if you want to keep your children from learning about sex then by all means homeschool. Yes, public schools do teach children not to hate homosexuals. If you want to teach your children to hate homosexuals, by all means homeschool.

Now, do you see how ridiculous hyperbole is? Do you see how annoying overdramatization is??

This is a perfect example of the hypersensitivity of some homeschoolers. God forbid anyone suggest that there should be some competency in basic subjects like Math, Reading and Science. Right away the screaming begins about taking away your rights to teach your children morality in the way you choose.
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My college education was not in education but yet I happen to teach my children Math, reading and Science.:eek:

And guess what my children both excel in these subject and compared to their traditionally schooled peers they out score them by a bunch. In fact my children are one to two grades higher in all of these subjects.

Now do you see how ridiculous you sound when you over dramatize all hs groups? And this is a perfect example of the hypersensitivity of those who oppose homeschoolers.

I know of public school teachers who have absolutely no background teachings Math and science but yet my tax dollars still go to employing them to actually teach these subjects. i hope you object to these teachers also. I don’t because one of these teachers who I am very close with I know does an excellent job teaching this subject, and I do turn to her for bouncing ideas off, as she also does with me.
 
st_lucy said:
My college education was not in education but yet I happen to teach my children Math, reading and Science.:eek:

And guess what my children both excel in these subject and compared to their traditionally schooled peers they out score them by a bunch. In fact my children are one to two grades higher in all of these subjects.

Now do you see how ridiculous you sound when you over dramatize all hs groups? And this is a perfect example of the hypersensitivity of those who oppose homeschoolers.

I know of public school teachers who have absolutely no background teachings Math and science but yet my tax dollars still go to employing them to actually teach these subjects. i hope you object to these teachers also. I don’t because one of these teachers who I am very close with I know does an excellent job teaching this subject, and I do turn to her for bouncing ideas off, as she also does with me.
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I thought I had made it very clear that I am in FAVOR of homeschooling on this thread but since that point has not been well comprehended I will say it again.

I LIKE HOMESCHOOLING. IT IS A GOOD THING.

There, now is that better?

Now, let’s try my other point.

ALL PEOPLE WHO TEACH CHILDREN SHOULD BE COMPETENT. COMPETENT MEANS HAVING REQUISITE OR ADEQUATE ABILITY TO PERFORM A TASK.

You went to college, so you likely studied math, english and history at a level above that of your children, therefore competency to teach them would not be in question, but then you already knew that. Your whole point was to overreact to me.

As I said earlier, my cousin homeschooled her children and was part of forums and groups. She did come in contact with parents who she felt were NOT competent to teach. Those people are out there, and AGAIN, as I said earlier ARE A MINORITY. Why should their children suffer and become another generation of people who cannot function well in society due to lack of BASIC SKILLS. ( not talking about sex ed or homosexual toleration here…)
 
mkingdomlvr said:
As I said earlier, my cousin homeschooled her children and was part of forums and groups. She did come in contact with parents who she felt were NOT competent to teach. Those people are out there, and AGAIN, as I said earlier ARE A MINORITY. Why should their children suffer and become another generation of people who cannot function well in society due to lack of BASIC SKILLS. ( not talking about sex ed or homosexual toleration here…)
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I totally understand your point, as my cousins are perfect examples of negligent parents who “homeschooled” their children, but really did nothing. They were in that minority who were incompetent. Yet, my aunt and uncle did have the education to teach them, it’s just that my aunt, who provided the schooling, was a total, lazy bum who sat on her butt all day and didn’t do anything to help her children. They suffered for it and that wasn’t right.

Of course, public school teachers need to be held accountable for their ability to teach. And parents who wish to homeschool should be held accountable as well. I have no doubt in my mind that many homeschooled children probably do much better than their public school counterparts because they receive one-on-one education - much like what you’d get in private schools with very small class sizes. (example, my class in the private girls school I attended for a little while had only about 10 students. It was wonderful. I loved it) These situations are ideal - especially if you can also provide languages, arts, and other things. And in these situations, I think homeschooling is wonderful.

If my husband and I determine to homeschool our child(ren), I’m confident we will do a good job with them as we are both well-educated with my strong points in reading, literature, languages and my husband in math and sciences and both of us in music, but I would have no qualms with being tested for our competency either.
 
marci said:
That fact that public school does not necessarily equal well educated, literate individuals. Or are you unaware of the crisis in public education across this country?
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OK. Let’s suppose two cases.
  1. Public school **does not **necessarily equal well educated, literate individuals.
  2. Public school **does **necessarily equal well educated, literate individuals.
Now, under #1, how does that effect preventing incompetent parents from violating their kid’s right to an education?

Under #2, how does that effect preventing incompetent parents from violating their kid’s right to an education?

Do we treat incompetent parents differently uder case #1 and case #2? What is the difference?
 
mpi said:
Item #1 says it all for me. You are on a Catholic website. If the moderators would let me do it I would post a reply that would be quite incendiary. But they probably wouldn’t let me do it. So I’ll settle for item #1 to be on full display for other Catholics to see.
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I presume a Catholic site values honesty and truth in discussion.
 
st_lucy said:
My college education was not in education but yet I happen to teach my children Math, reading and Science.:eek:

And guess what my children both excel in these subject and compared to their traditionally schooled peers they out score them by a bunch. In fact my children are one to two grades higher in all of these subjects.

Now do you see how ridiculous you sound when you over dramatize all hs groups? And this is a perfect example of the hypersensitivity of those who oppose homeschoolers.

I know of public school teachers who have absolutely no background teachings Math and science but yet my tax dollars still go to employing them to actually teach these subjects. i hope you object to these teachers also. I don’t because one of these teachers who I am very close with I know does an excellent job teaching this subject, and I do turn to her for bouncing ideas off, as she also does with me.
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Note private schools do very well educating kids and the have no requirement that tecahers have college education courses. Colleges teachers don’t need education credits either. We can find all kinds of examples where retired engineers can’t teach math in public schools because they lack education cerdits.

However, a teacher does have to have knowledge of the subject matter they are teaching. That’s a major reason illiterates make poor reading teachers.
 
Sarabande said:
I totally understand your point, as my cousins are perfect examples of negligent parents who “homeschooled” their children, but really did nothing. They were in that minority who were incompetent. Yet, my aunt and uncle did have the education to teach them, it’s just that my aunt, who provided the schooling, was a total, lazy bum who sat on her butt all day and didn’t do anything to help her children. They suffered for it and that wasn’t right.

Of course, public school teachers need to be held accountable for their ability to teach. And parents who wish to homeschool should be held accountable as well. I have no doubt in my mind that many homeschooled children probably do much better than their public school counterparts because they receive one-on-one education - much like what you’d get in private schools with very small class sizes. (example, my class in the private girls school I attended for a little while had only about 10 students. It was wonderful. I loved it) These situations are ideal - especially if you can also provide languages, arts, and other things. And in these situations, I think homeschooling is wonderful.

If my husband and I determine to homeschool our child(ren), I’m confident we will do a good job with them as we are both well-educated with my strong points in reading, literature, languages and my husband in math and sciences and both of us in music, but I would have no qualms with being tested for our competency either.
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I know my cousin’s kids did far better than their public school educated friends, but as you say, the parents have to be willing to put the time in. It’s a full time job, especially when you have more than 1 child. I know my cousin worked harder than many public school teachers because she had 5 kids and had to keep them all working at grade level where a public school teacher has more kids in the class, but they’re all doing the same thing.

I would like to see tenure end in public schools so that lazy teachers can’t coast once they achieve that milestone. I would like to see continual evaluations in basic skills of everyone who teaches-public, private and at home. I think part of the problem in asking parents who homeschool to be evaluated is that they know public school teachers aren’t subject to the same pressures once they get tenure.
 
mkingdomlvr said:
Do you teach them to READ?? Do you teach them MATH?? Do you teach them SCIENCE??? News flash-those are taught in public school. Do you object to parents having at least a nodding acquaintance with those subjects before homeschooling???
…
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I object to the state having the power to take away a parent’s right to educate their children. This type of thing didn’t exist until the last two centuries or so.
 
mpi said:
I object to the state having the power to take away a parent’s right to educate their children. This type of thing didn’t exist until the last two centuries or so.
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Again, that’s NOT what I said, nor is it anywhere close to what I’ve been advocating on this thread. What I said was that parents and teachers should be competent before they are entrusted with the education of children. I really can’t understand an objection to that. Aren’t we all better off with a well-educated population no matter where that education takes place??

The state has no right to determine what kind of moral or religious education parents chose to give their children, but I believe that there MUST be standards regarding basic skills like reading, math and science. Those standards should apply to public school, private school and homeschool teachers.
 
mkingdomlvr said:
Again, that’s NOT what I said, nor is it anywhere close to what I’ve been advocating on this thread. What I said was that parents and teachers should be competent before they are entrusted with the education of children. I really can’t understand an objection to that. Aren’t we all better off with a well-educated population no matter where that education takes place??

The state has no right to determine what kind of moral or religious education parents chose to give their children, but I believe that there MUST be standards regarding basic skills like reading, math and science. Those standards should apply to public school, private school and homeschool teachers.
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That is your opinion. My state does not set levels of competency. Why do you presume that government involvement improves any situation? Your statement follows this logic: 1) spraining your ankle is bad, 2) a government law needs to be passed to keep people from spraining their ankles, 3) huge expenses follow as inspectors try to prevent “dangerous” activity, and 4) sports and other activities are banned (along with other silly consequences). In other words, the chill imposed on parents wanting to homeschool by “parental teaching standards” and the costs associated with monitoring homeschool standards far outweigh any benefits you perceive to increased oversight of homeschooling. What you propose leads to loss of liberty and freedom - especially for Catholics.
 
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