Switching Religions

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kparlet:
Objectively it would be a mortal sin; but, we must be careful not to judge one’s culpability in the matter. If said person knows that the Catholic Church IS the one true church and still decides to leave, then he would have full culpability for the sin; however, if the same said person is not sure or not convinced that the Catholic Church is the one true church and decides to leave, then his culpability would be lessened.
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Good explanation.
 
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mikew262:
The question is what is God’s standard? The Catholic’s have Mortal and Venal Sins. The Protestants feel a sin is a sin and nowhere in the Bible does it say one is more serious than the other. Yes, in John, depending upon the Bible translation you use, the term “mortal” is used, but I think that is it. If I’m wrong, pls show me.

BTW, we are wandering off thread here.
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The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. The term mortal sin is simply a description of a truth. Truth is truth. That others do not understand a division between sins exist, or that certain factors must be met to be culplable, does not mean mortal sin does not exist. It means some folks have not understood that yet.
 
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Linnyo:
I know for a fact that non-catholics can also be Christains so how would it be sinful to choose to worship in a different denomination. I have worshipped in various churches and know that the truth is taught in many of them!
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Some elements of truth may be present in other Christian faiths, but not the fullness of truth. For one who knows that Christ founded one Church, the CC, and to leave the Church is objectively mortally sinful. How subjectively culpable one would be we cannot know, but it is wrong.
 
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Linnyo:
I know for a fact that non-catholics can also be Christains so how would it be sinful to choose to worship in a different denomination. I have worshipped in various churches and know that the truth is taught in many of them!
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Actually, that should be ‘a’ truth is taught in many of them.
There are truths to be found in many places, but there is only one that will give you the whole truth.
 
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mikew262:
BTW, we are wandering off thread here.
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Agreed.

So to throw it back in that direction…

There are a number of sins involved in leaving the Catholic church for another.
There may be a reduction in culpability for those that had not been Confirmed in the church; but once you are Confirmed, too bad, it is a mortal sin.

I am sure people can perform linguistic tricks to try to reduce it to just ‘sin’ but the fact will remain that a Confirmed Catholic knows the truth, knows the sin, and knows the punishment.
Other non-catholics may have the luxury of stating it not a mortal sin, but the Confirmed Catholic will still be guilty of Mortal sin. And, should it not be confessed, will be dealt with by God accordingly.
 
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vz71:
Agreed.

So to throw it back in that direction…

There are a number of sins involved in leaving the Catholic church for another.
There may be a reduction in culpability for those that had not been Confirmed in the church; but once you are Confirmed, too bad, it is a mortal sin.

I am sure people can perform linguistic tricks to try to reduce it to just ‘sin’ but the fact will remain that a Confirmed Catholic knows the truth, knows the sin, and knows the punishment.
Other non-catholics may have the luxury of stating it not a mortal sin, but the Confirmed Catholic will still be guilty of Mortal sin. And, should it not be confessed, will be dealt with by God accordingly.
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I disagree to some extent.

I don’t think that we can make a sweeping statement that all Confirmed Catholics “know the truth, know the sin, and know the punishment.” As a youngster, I was always taught that the Catholic Church was the one true church instituted by Jesus…and I believed it because my father said so. My own understanding of what this meant didn’t come until five years ago when I felt Our Lord press on my heart to begin researching my faith. I knew the what’s, but I never understood the why’s. I think we have a tendancy to think that if we shove our kids through CCD that they will miraculously come out the other end completely catechised…and that is not the case. Unfortunately, my daughter has become very good at drawing pictures of Jesus in CCD, but I’m not so sure she could tell you the meaning of Mathew 16:18 (not sure she would even know how to get to Mathew 16:18). My point is that if we did a better job at catechizing our kids and our fellow Catholics, no one would dare leave, if they knew and understood what they were leaving!
 
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kparlet:
I disagree to some extent.

I don’t think that we can make a sweeping statement that all Confirmed Catholics “know the truth, know the sin, and know the punishment.” As a youngster, I was always taught that the Catholic Church was the one true church instituted by Jesus…and I believed it because my father said so. My own understanding of what this meant didn’t come until five years ago when I felt Our Lord press on my heart to begin researching my faith. I knew the what’s, but I never understood the why’s. I think we have a tendancy to think that if we shove our kids through CCD that they will miraculously come out the other end completely catechised…and that is not the case. Unfortunately, my daughter has become very good at drawing pictures of Jesus in CCD, but I’m not so sure she could tell you the meaning of Mathew 16:18 (not sure she would even know how to get to Mathew 16:18). My point is that if we did a better job at catechizing our kids and our fellow Catholics, no one would dare leave, if they knew and understood what they were leaving!
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That is easier said than done because children develop conceptual understanding at different ages and some may never quite ‘get there’. Many children simply lack that ability to understand the full meaning of the sacraments at the ages specified. It would be better to leave the sacraments until children are older than the ages recommended at the current time. I teach kids going for 1st reconciliation and they have had intensive teaching from the priest, their parents and myself but some still have difficulty knowing right from wrong! Some adults aren’t aware of right and wrong!
 
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vz71:
Agreed.

So to throw it back in that direction…

There are a number of sins involved in leaving the Catholic church for another.
There may be a reduction in culpability for those that had not been Confirmed in the church; but once you are Confirmed, too bad, it is a mortal sin.

I am sure people can perform linguistic tricks to try to reduce it to just ‘sin’ but the fact will remain that a Confirmed Catholic knows the truth, knows the sin, and knows the punishment.
Other non-catholics may have the luxury of stating it not a mortal sin, but the Confirmed Catholic will still be guilty of Mortal sin. And, should it not be confessed, will be dealt with by God accordingly.
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For a full blown adult who is confirmed as an adult, you may have a point. However, most Catholics who are confirmed are done so when they are kids. They really have no choice in the matter. Their parents tell them they are getting confirmed and thats how it goes. Most people who realize the Catholic Church isn’t doing it for them, for whatever reason, realize this when they have become adults and thus leave.
 
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vz71:
There are a number of sins involved in leaving the Catholic church for another.
There may be a reduction in culpability for those that had not been Confirmed in the church; but once you are Confirmed, too bad, it is a mortal sin.
.
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Which begs two questions.
  1. Baptism is not given to infants with their consent. If the faith is not for them, for any reason, it is the error of parents/church for forcing them into a state (baptised) without first getting consent from the infant. It seems a form of entrapment.
  2. Confirmation is given ty children of 11/12. Hardly full adults capable of making full and informed consent. Given the vunerability of children to coercion and expectation; and their desire to please it is far from reasonable to hold these children to their vows.
So, “too bad, it’s a mortal sin”…hmmmm.
 
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Ghosty:
No, I definately think there’s a difference based on personal culpability, just as with any sin. I’m just pointing out that leaving is indeed a major, major sin, objectively speaking. Subjectively there are always factors to consider, it’s not us who do the considering however, but God.

Due to the extreme nature of the sin, though, I would never, ever council anyone that it was in any way “ok” to leave the Catholic Church, even if they weren’t grounded in the Faith. It’s better, IMO, to point out the severity of the issue and the need for the individual to pursue proper understanding of the Faith. After all, we’re talking about a sin that is objectively worse than murder, so the personal discernment involved should be at least as intense as with the act of taking another person’s life.

Peace and God bless!
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Wow, deep stuff. And suddenly I am outside the box.

Take a babe in arms, baptise them, from then on tell them it is a sin to leave the church they had no part in joining, and…and …oh the see the temporal power grow! Then make sure reproduction is a duty…and armies of catholics are made without their consent and in fear of breaking a contract they did not make.

“The kingdom, the power and the glory” suddenly have an alternative interpretation.

ow! ow! ow! ow! ow! ow!

This hurts!
 
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Digger71:
Wow, deep stuff. And suddenly I am outside the box.

Take a babe in arms, baptise them, from then on tell them it is a sin to leave the church they had no part in joining, and…and …oh the see the temporal power grow! Then make sure reproduction is a duty…and armies of catholics are made without their consent and in fear of breaking a contract they did not make.

“The kingdom, the power and the glory” suddenly have an alternative interpretation.

ow! ow! ow! ow! ow! ow!

This hurts!
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I don’t like it either. It makes me wonder why God gave us free will.
I try always to question why I do what I do. That way I can be satisfied that I am justified in my choices. My hubby who is a cradle catholic never questions and I find it difficult to understand that.
 
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Digger71:
Which begs two questions.
  1. Baptism is not given to infants with their consent. If the faith is not for them, for any reason, it is the error of parents/church for forcing them into a state (baptised) without first getting consent from the infant. It seems a form of entrapment.
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Did you read the entirety of my post?
I am speaking of confirmed catholics, not catholics that are just baptised (without the benefit of confirmation).
This was made clear in my post.
Also, “if the faith is not for them” does not fly very far.
The faith is for everyone.
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Digger71:
  1. Confirmation is given ty children of 11/12. Hardly full adults capable of making full and informed consent. Given the vunerability of children to coercion and expectation; and their desire to please it is far from reasonable to hold these children to their vows.
So, “too bad, it’s a mortal sin”…hmmmm.
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Many people are confirmed at that young age.
Many more (at least where I am from) are confirmed between 16 and 18.
 
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Linnyo:
That is easier said than done because children develop conceptual understanding at different ages and some may never quite ‘get there’. Many children simply lack that ability to understand the full meaning of the sacraments at the ages specified. It would be better to leave the sacraments until children are older than the ages recommended at the current time. I teach kids going for 1st reconciliation and they have had intensive teaching from the priest, their parents and myself but some still have difficulty knowing right from wrong! Some adults aren’t aware of right and wrong!
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I remember the Bishop scrutinizing the students in my confirmation class to verify that they do, in fact, have an understanding of what is going on.
Is this not the common practice?
 
I think this passage from Matthew chapter 5 has bearing on this discussion

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 14 20 I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. "

I would suggest that “the Law” is all those things we are told to do by those holding the appropriate position of religious authority. Jesus clearly indicates that it is better to keep the law than to break the law.

I would suggest that “righteousness” is the following of God’s basic laws such as the commandments to not have false gods and to love our neighbor as ourself.

Note that breaking “the Law” results in demotion within God’s kingdom but failure to practice “righteousness” results in complete loss of God’s kingdom.

Maintaining one’s practice of the Catholic faith would seem to be more a matter of keeping the Law than it is a matter of righteousness. It would be better if one could maintain their practice of the faith, they would have a greater fullness of life but they are not necessarily rejecting God’s kingdom by failing to maintain the details of the law of the Church

peace

Jim
 
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vz71:
Did you read the entirety of my post?
I am speaking of confirmed catholics, not catholics that are just baptised (without the benefit of confirmation).
This was made clear in my post.
Also, “if the faith is not for them” does not fly very far.
The faith is for everyone.

Many people are confirmed at that young age.
Many more (at least where I am from) are confirmed between 16 and 18.
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Yes, “various sins bvefore confirmation” and mortal sin afterwards.

I was confirmed at 11.
 
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vz71:
I remember the Bishop scrutinizing the students in my confirmation class to verify that they do, in fact, have an understanding of what is going on.
Is this not the common practice?
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We had not even left junior school. And rote learning is not the same as understanding.
 
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Digger71:
Yes, “various sins bvefore confirmation” and mortal sin afterwards.
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I am not certain I understand you. Are you saying it is not possible to commit Mortal sin before confirmation?

I Assure you it is.
 
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