Switching Religions

[fix]

mikew262:

To a Catholic, yes; not to a non-Catholic.

I am not sure of what you are intending to say? Objectively, the CC has the fullness of truth. Others may not grasp that, but it is objectively true.

Perhaps you mean that Catholics accept that truth and others do not accept it?

 

[vz71]

There is something here that is confusing to me.

While everyone seems worried about the youth of a person when they join the church, they have no problem with the age that they leave.
Now if we are to accept that for whatever reason, their age when they leave the church makes them more able to make a reasoned decision, then should we also not hold them accountable for the error in that decision?
There is nothing at all stopping anyone from picking up a book and learning about the church. Assuming they did not know about the church to begin with.

Also, I have yet to find an ‘ex’-catholic that really knew the church. Every one (no exceptions) that I have met has some kind of false belief of what the church teaches.
And I am not talking about the finer points of theology, I am talking about the basic misunderstandings as though they bought into some (or all) of what Jack Chick writes.

Now given that there is nothing to stop a person from digging a little and finding church teaching. Given that the misunderstandings can be cleared. YES, someone leaving the church is guilty, and should be held accountable.

 

[mikew262]

fix:

Perhaps you mean that Catholics accept that truth and others do not accept it?

Yes, more or less. Non-catholic Christians do not believe the Catholic version of the truth. They believe the truth comes strictly from the Bible for the most part, based on their denomination’s interpretation. Doesn’t the Catholic Church really do the same thing?

I’m Catholic and I accept the Catholic Church’s interpretation, otherwise I wouldn’t be Catholic. However, I’m not arrogant enough to believe that just because somebody doesn’t agree with my point of view concerning God, that they will never achieve salvation.

 

[fix]

mikew262:

Yes, more or less. Non-catholic Christians do not believe the Catholic version of the truth. They believe the truth comes strictly from the Bible for the most part, based on their denomination’s interpretation. Doesn’t the Catholic Church really do the same thing?

I’m Catholic and I accept the Catholic Church’s interpretation, otherwise I wouldn’t be Catholic. However, I’m not arrogant enough to believe that just because somebody doesn’t agree with my point of view concerning God, that they will never achieve salvation.

Well, I mostly agree with what you have said, but I am stressing that there is an objective truth. That others do not “agree’” does not mean that the truth does not exist. It means they have failed to recognize it so far for whatever reason.

It is not arrogance. It does not mean one is necessarily doomed.

 

[Linnyo]

No the Bishop does not routinely chech childrens understanding before they participate in all of the sacraments.Well not here anyway!

 

[vz71]

Linnyo:

No the Bishop does not routinely chech childrens understanding before they participate in all of the sacraments.Well not here anyway!

Well it would seem that you are being done a disservice.

But still, that would not excuse someone from leaving the church.

If they are old enough to decide to leave, they are old enough for the culpability. As I have said in a previous post, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing a little digging on their own.

 

[Digger71]

vz71:

Did you read the entirety of my post?
I am speaking of confirmed catholics, not catholics that are just baptised (without the benefit of confirmation).
.

ummmm. There are a number of sins involved in leaving the Catholic church for another.
There may be a reduction in culpability for those that had not been Confirmed in the church; but once you are Confirmed, too bad, it is a mortal sin.

It’s possible I misinterpreted you, but that’s what you wrote that struck me.

 

[Digger71]

vz71:

While everyone seems worried about the youth of a person when they join the church, they have no problem with the age that they leave.
Now if we are to accept that for whatever reason, their age when they leave the church makes them more able to make a reasoned decision, then should we also not hold them accountable for the error in that decision?

It’s not thjeir job to ‘dig’ after they have been entered in to a contract beofre they had any understanding of the issues. The ‘error’ in leaving is impossible without being joined in the first place.

This is absolutely obvious. Your response is at best mealy mouthed.

You cannot leave a club you have not joined.

 

[Digger71]

vz71:

Well it would seem that you are being done a disservice.

But still, that would not excuse someone from leaving the church.

If they are old enough to decide to leave, they are old enough for the culpability. As I have said in a previous post, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing a little digging on their own.

Shocking! Entrapmment!

If they were EVER given the choice to join, with a full and informed adult intellect you would have a point.

But you say they should pick up a book and find out? OK, why deny these people the free will, the fre choicee to join on their violition, when they know all the facts?

Where is a persons free will when they are but babes in arms?

They have NO culpability on leaving a church they NEVER agreed top be part of. If culpability is to be given out, give it to the parents, and the Church who deny free wiil and free choice to the individual in the subject of joining

 

[paramedicgirl]

Linnyo:

I know for a fact that non-catholics can also be Christains so how would it be sinful to choose to worship in a different denomination. I have worshipped in various churches and know that the truth is taught in many of them!

Huh? That is an impossibility. Where is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, outside of the Catholic Church? How is unconsecrated bread and grape juice equated with the sacrifice on Calvary? Jesus established one holy, catholic and apostolic church to teach the truth, not thirty thousand of them.

 

[Linnyo]

paramedicgirl:

Huh? That is an impossibility. Where is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, outside of the Catholic Church? How is unconsecrated bread and grape juice equated with the sacrifice on Calvary?

Other churches don’t lie about it so they are still teaching truth. OK so the RCC has all the sacraments in place but it doesn’t mean that other churches are dishonest.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Linnyo:

Other churches don’t lie about it so they are still teaching truth. OK so the RCC has all the sacraments in place but it doesn’t mean that other churches are dishonest.

They may be teaching partial truths, but they do not have the fullness of truth that the CC possess. Their attacks on the CC (idol worship, etc) are most likely done out of ignorance, not lying.

 

[vz71]

Digger71:

Shocking! Entrapmment!

Hardly.

Digger71:

If they were EVER given the choice to join, with a full and informed adult intellect you would have a point.

But you say they should pick up a book and find out? OK, why deny these people the free will, the fre choicee to join on their violition, when they know all the facts?

So are we talking about adults with a free will or are we not?
And adult CAN do that. And if they are to make a choice of one religion over the Catholic church, then they DO have a responsibility to know the facts concerning that decision.
Otherwise the decision is ill-informed, and pretty much the same as this ‘entrapment’ that you claim to be there.

Digger71:

Where is a persons free will when they are but babes in arms?

Again, Are we talking about adults or not?
You seem to be talking about both.

Digger71:

They have NO culpability on leaving a church they NEVER agreed top be part of.

No one said the did. That’s ridiculous…infants do not have a free will. Of course, that also precludes them being able to leave the church.
Are we talking of adults or infants?

Digger71:

If culpability is to be given out, give it to the parents, and the Church who deny free wiil and free choice to the individual in the subject of joining

That’s it. Blame the church when things go wrong.
It’s all their fault anyway.

All this in an effort to avoid responsibility for ones actions.

Wouldn’t it be less trouble to stay in the church?

 

[Linnyo]

paramedicgirl:

They may be teaching partial truths, but they do not have the fullness of truth that the CC possess. Their attacks on the CC (idol worship, etc) are most likely done out of ignorance, not lying.

That was some assumption. I suspect you have only ever come across vocal, protestant(as in protesting) churches.
Not all non-catholic churches attack the RCC, in fact, many view it as just another Christian way of worshipping God. Unfortunately it seems to be the ones who attack that get heard more. Maybe they need to try harder to justify themselves. There are many churches that do not have the time or the inclination to go picking specks out of the ‘RCCs’ eye, so to speak. Many make no judgement whatsoever on any other churches.

 

[Digger71]

vz71:

Again, Are we talking about adults or not?
You seem to be talking about both.

You seem confused. The adults have no duty to learn, no duty to understand, no duty at all to the Catholic Church untl they join of their own violition.

Your claim thay have a duty to a church that wilfully denied them choice is not tenable. You are arguing tacit consent (yu were born, therefore you agreed…) vs explicit consent. Similar to “she worse a short skirt, your honour, so I thought she consented to sex”

 

[vz71]

Digger71:

You seem confused. The adults have no duty to learn, no duty to understand, no duty at all to the Catholic Church untl they join of their own violition.

Your claim thay have a duty to a church that wilfully denied them choice is not tenable. You are arguing tacit consent (yu were born, therefore you agreed…) vs explicit consent. Similar to “she worse a short skirt, your honour, so I thought she consented to sex”

Hardly.
I am arguing that any adult has a responsibility to learn the facts before making a decision of that nature.
I am also arguing that the individual will be held accountable for the error (or correctness) of the decision.
Wouldn’t you agree that decisions that will effect your life to this degree (not to mention how eternity is spent) should be researched thoroughly?

Oh, and one last thing…Do I hear an attempt to paint the church in the same color as rapists?

Digger71:

Similar to “she worse a short skirt, your honour, so I thought she consented to sex”

Sounds close to an ad hominem attck to me.

 

[Linnyo]

vz71:

Hardly.
I am arguing that any adult has a responsibility to learn the facts before making a decision of that nature.
I am also arguing that the individual will be held accountable for the error (or correctness) of the decision.
Wouldn’t you agree that decisions that will effect your life to this degree (not to mention how eternity is spent) should be researched ttoroughly?

Is it not true that since ALL adults(like children) have different levels of comprehension and this is why the ‘one rule applies for all’ approach to judgement wouldn’t work?
Some adults do research fully but the way they might interpret their research might be different from the way you interpret yours. Does that mean they are wrong and you are right ?

 

[Jonah]

My friend the Mormon left the Catholic church. She was told that all religions were an abomination to God… well all but the Mormon church. She believed it and left the Catholic church.

It’s all about who can do the better brainwashing.

Do I think she committed a mortal sin? UH NO, her veil of truth belongs to her.

 

[vz71]

vz71:

I am arguing that any adult has a responsibility to learn the facts before making a decision of that nature.
I am also arguing that the individual will be held accountable for the error (or correctness) of the decision.
Wouldn’t you agree that decisions that will effect your life to this degree (not to mention how eternity is spent) should be researched thoroughly?

I fail to see why anyone would have a problem with this.

Some adults do research fully but the way they might interpret their research might be different from the way you interpret yours. Does that mean they are wrong and you are right ?

Actually, that looks like a thinly veiled form of moral relativism.
I will refrain further comment on it.
But I can see the point of some not interpreting research the same way. I once knew a college professor whose favorite phrase was “That is only that authors opinion. Not fact.”
He would even fall back on that line of reasoning in the face of being shown a phone book and arguing over a phone number.
But perhaps we have to ask “Are they being truthful?”

An honest search for truth will lead you there.

 

[mikew262]

vz71:

Actually, that looks like a thinly veiled form of moral relativism.

Actually more like reality and common sense.