Ten Arguments against Harry Potter

  • Thread starter Thread starter TPJCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
In addition, even if we accept that Benedict XVI believes that these books are problematic (and there is sufficient room for argument on this) such would only be evidence of a personal opinion from which the faithful are free to dissent, unless we are going to take a page out of Protestant theology and maintain that Catholics much hold that every stray utterance from the Pope is infallible.
 
pnewton,

Come on, don’t be flippant just to win an argument. There are literally millions of people who read those books and see the movies and there is no way that it has no adversely impacted at least some of them. Now, why should Catholics want to mess with such things? Give me one sound reason why a Catholic should read that trash (and stating they are entertaining is not a valid reason to read evil stuff)?
 
mlchance,

*You don’t even agree your points are sound. You admitted that Harry Potter does not constitute practicing divination or sorcery. Therefore, Biblical and Church condemnations about such practices do not apply.
*
==> Wrong, I think my points are very sound. I think your poinyts make no sense at all. Biblical condemnations apply because the books glorify things that are contrary to God’s commands and laws. It is really much more simple then you are making it out to be.

*You’re equivocating again. First, it’s neither God nor the Church has expressly condemned Harry Potter. Then, it’s God and the Church has condemned practicing divination and sorcery. But, since reading Harry Potter isn’t the same thing as practicing divination and sorcery, you jump back to the argument-begging statement that the novels “glorify pratices that God and His Church have so clearly condemned.”
==> Wrong again. I have been quite consistent. I never said God named Harry Potter, I said God codemns sorcery and He quite obviously does. The novels glorfiy sorcery, that is a fact. So people who read that trash are reading fictinalized practices that God has strongly condemned (along with His Church btw). You and everyone else are free to ignore God’s Word and His Church, I won’t thank you very much.

That’s not an argument. It’s a mere assertion.

==> It is an argument. What we choose to do with our time has an impact on our lives and souls. We can choose to do something positive or negative…reading trash like HP is not postive imo because those stories glorify practices that we should not even let into our minds. Open the door and satan will walk in, you either accept that or reject that. Very simple stuff–Christianity 101.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with Harry Potter.

==> Agreed, but it is a worthy analogy.

But, again, where is the evidence that this is happening? You say it “can” happen. Lots of things “can” happen that never do, or least don’t with anything approaching regularity.

==> I have read many accounts of kids who have looked into doing magic after reading those books. Whether or not they took it farther I do not know…but one thing is for sure imo, those books do not encourage a belief in Christ.

Again, irrelevant to Harry Potter, and also, not true. The huge majority of people are opposed to abortion. The huge majority of people think that there ought to be at least restrictions on abortion.

==> Agreed, except if you have paid attention to my messages I am quite concerned about the overall direction of our culture and HP is merely one little problem among many. Abortion was normalized one step and one day at a time and we are not fighting a huge battle to turn that evil practice back. Likewise, HP seems benign on the surface, just as abortion seemed somewhat benign in its beginning. When we open bad doors, we cannot be surprised to reap the rewards of opening those lousy doors. Simple stuff…Christianity 101.
 
OtherEric,

I do not think those statement swere infallible. However, the Bible is.
 
40.png
TPJCatholic:
OtherEric,

I do not think those statement swere infallible. However, the Bible is.
Click to expand...
Hi TPJCatholic!

The Bible may be infallible, but this is a far cry from showing that Harry Potter is any more destructive that Pinocchio, in which a puppet finds his humanity through the assistance of the Blue Fairy.
 
It’s pretty clear that that whereas certain Catholic leaders (Fr. Corapi, the chief exorcist of Rome, among others) have condemned the Harry Potter books, and certain of the Catholic hierarchy have indicated a distaste for them, no Catholic hierarch has actually come out and condemned them authoritatively, or said authoritatively that they are okay. That’s unfortunate, but there have been times in the past when the Church has closed the barn door after the horse is already in the next county.

Much of the argument in support of the novels is that they are fantasy, meaning that they take place in an “alternative universe,” where the rules of this universe do not apply, and other rules do.

I have a problem with that, which I have been sitting on (trying to hatch it in a way that will be understood), but which I will now try to put into words.

We have here two sides. On the one side, we have magic and sorcery, which are condemned in the Torah and by the Catholic Church. We also have a body of literature, known as fantasy, set in an alternate universe where the rules are different. Typically, there is no God (LOTR, Harry Potter), and those characters who are so gifted use magic to do what they want to get done, whether for good or bad. When the purveyers of fantasy literature are attacked by Christian moralists, they defend themselves by pointing out that their stories don’t take place in this “world,” so therefore this “world’s” rules don’t apply.

On the second side, we have extra- and non-marital sexual activity, which is condemned in the Torah and by the Catholic Church. We also have a body of literature, known as pornography, also apparently set in an alternative universe where there is no God, where there are no rules, and where there are no physical, spiritual, or moral consequences for any sexual activity. When the purveyers of pornography are attacked by Christian moralists, they defend themselves by claiming, again, that Christian rules don’t apply to them.

So here’s the thing: I don’t see any real difference between magic-and-sorcery fantasy literature and pornography, except for a couple of quibbles: first, that pornography is specifically condemned by the Catholic Church, and sorcery fantasy is not, and second, that readers of pornography can do something about the feelings that are aroused by reading that literature, while readers of fantasy literature cannot.

If someone can show me where I’ve gone wrong, I’ll be glad to take it into consideration.

DaveBj
 
Other Eric:
Hi TPJCatholic!

The Bible may be infallible, but this is a far cry from showing that Harry Potter is any more destructive that Pinocchio, in which a puppet finds his humanity through the assistance of the Blue Fairy.
Click to expand...
Good call… I’ve just cut off my right hand for touching a football. For my next trick, I’ll rip out my tongue and swallow Drano after eating a pork tenderloin sandwich. Please…

Peace.
 
40.png
TPJCatholic:
From:

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=36&art_id=29398

Ten Arguments Against Harry Potter
Catholic Exchange

http://www.catholicexchange.com/ius/vm/ahd_pinline.gif
  1. Harry Potter is a global long-term project to change the culture. In this generation of youths, inhibitions against magic and the occult are being destroyed. Thus, forces re-enter society which Christianity had overcome.
  2. Hogwarts, the school of magic and witchcraft, is a closed world of violence and horror, of cursing and bewitching, of racist ideology, of blood sacrifice, disgust, and obsession. There is an atmosphere of continuous threat, which the young reader cannot escape.
  3. While Harry Potter appears in the beginning to fight against evil, in fact the similarities between him and Voldemort, the arch-evil adversary in the tale, become more and more obvious. In volume five, Harry is being obsessed by Voldemort, which leads to symptoms of personality disintegration.
  4. The human world becomes degraded; the world of witches and sorcerers becomes glorified.
  5. There is no positive transcendent dimension. The supernatural is entirely demonic. Divine symbols are perverted.
  6. Harry Potter is no modern fairy tale. In fairy tales, sorcerers and witches are unambiguous figures of evil and the hero escapes their power through the exercise of virtue. In the Harry Potter universe there is no character that endeavors consistently to achieve good. For seemingly good ends evil means are being used.
  7. A (young!) reader’s power of discernment of good and evil is blocked out through emotional manipulation and intellectual confusion.
  8. It is an assault upon this generation of youth, seducing it playfully into a world of witchcraft and sorcery, filling the imagination of the young with images of a world in which evil reigns, from which there is no escape, on the contrary, it is portrayed as highly desirable.
  9. Those who value plurality of opinion should resist the nearly overwhelming power of this peer pressure, which is being accomplished through a gigantic corporate and multimedia blitz — one which displays elements of totalitarian brainwashing.
  10. Since through the Potter books faith in a loving God is systematically undermined, even destroyed in many young people, through false “values” and mockery of Judeo-Christian truth, the introduction of these books in schools is intolerant. Parents should refuse permission for their children to take part in Potter indoctrination for reasons of faith and conscience.
Click to expand...
:whacky: …must believe this malarky…must ignore God-given intelligence (gasp!)…:whacky:
 
slight hijack

TPJ,

I won’t add my two cents to the discussion on the value of Harry Potter, as I think my position (don’t see much harm in it) has already been fully expounded.

But I’m curious and would like to ask (non-combatively) what do those who object to sorcery/divination/magic/foreboding make of fairy tales from the Brothers Grimm or Hans Christian Anderson such as Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella and the Little Mermaid???

(I mean the original (dark & bloody) versions not the cleaned up Disney re-tellings.)

I’m curious because I’ve recently read Chersterton’s Orthodoxy in which he has some interesting things to say about them…
 
Addendum: Upon following the link, I find that this article is written by the same women whose views Pope Benedict supported (?) in his letter. Interesting.

I also find it interesting that she claims that wizards and sorcerers are “unambiguous figures of evil” in fairy tales. What about Cinderella’s godmother? I think there are some other good magicians in fairy tales, but I’m not at home and don’t have Grimm or Peirault (sp?) to hand…

Her claim that fairy tale characters always survive the magic/sorcery through their own virtue doesn’t totally jive with my memory either, (they usually have magical help, I believe) - but as I said, I’m not near my books at the moment.

The whole article makes me wonder how good/bad the German translations of Harry Potter are…
 
I grew up in a good Catholic home and went to a good Catholic school. I found myself the Senior Literature bit of our school library quite early on, and the teachers saw I had good reading ability and let me borrow things from the shelves. They trusted me…maybe I read things I shouldn’t have (too scary at age 12-13). But I had a good grounding in the faith, and even though I loved fantasy books (you name it, I read it) they did not turn me towards evil.

Possibly this is the problem here, that children now do not have the grounding in the faith. And they are surrounded by viciously effective marketing schemes that we did not have in the 70s. There’s already a massive moral chasm in the West into which evil finds its natural place.

The answer is for Catholic parents to ensure they never let up teaching the faith to their kids.
 
40.png
TPJCatholic:
pnewton,

Come on, don’t be flippant
Click to expand...
I said nothing “flippant.” I do not care for them. But let us at least be honest in our reasoning. The church has not condemned them. Calling them evil does not make them so. And I seriously question the first of the ten theses posted, as if these books are a part of an evil, world-wide conspiracy.

I also think any arguement that can be universally applied to almost anything in life, like, “there is no way that it has no adversely impacted at least some of them” is feeble.
 
40.png
DaveBj:
It’s pretty clear that that whereas certain Catholic leaders (Fr. Corapi, the chief exorcist of Rome, among others) have condemned the Harry Potter books, and certain of the Catholic hierarchy have indicated a distaste for them, no Catholic hierarch has actually come out and condemned them authoritatively, or said authoritatively that they are okay. That’s unfortunate, but there have been times in the past when the Church has closed the barn door after the horse is already in the next county.

Much of the argument in support of the novels is that they are fantasy, meaning that they take place in an “alternative universe,” where the rules of this universe do not apply, and other rules do.

I have a problem with that, which I have been sitting on (trying to hatch it in a way that will be understood), but which I will now try to put into words.

We have here two sides. On the one side, we have magic and sorcery, which are condemned in the Torah and by the Catholic Church. We also have a body of literature, known as fantasy, set in an alternate universe where the rules are different. Typically, there is no God (LOTR, Harry Potter), and those characters who are so gifted use magic to do what they want to get done, whether for good or bad. When the purveyers of fantasy literature are attacked by Christian moralists, they defend themselves by pointing out that their stories don’t take place in this “world,” so therefore this “world’s” rules don’t apply.

On the second side, we have extra- and non-marital sexual activity, which is condemned in the Torah and by the Catholic Church. We also have a body of literature, known as pornography, also apparently set in an alternative universe where there is no God, where there are no rules, and where there are no physical, spiritual, or moral consequences for any sexual activity. When the purveyers of pornography are attacked by Christian moralists, they defend themselves by claiming, again, that Christian rules don’t apply to them.

So here’s the thing: I don’t see any real difference between magic-and-sorcery fantasy literature and pornography, except for a couple of quibbles: first, that pornography is specifically condemned by the Catholic Church, and sorcery fantasy is not, and second, that readers of pornography can do something about the feelings that are aroused by reading that literature, while readers of fantasy literature cannot.

If someone can show me where I’ve gone wrong, I’ll be glad to take it into consideration.

DaveBj
Click to expand...
Hi DaveBj!

I have not read anything by J.K. Rowling insisting that because her books take place in some alternate universe, that our own moral code cannot be applied to them. It would be a stupid argument to make, because while the story may indeed take place in another universe, the books themselves exist in this one and so must conform to our moral standards.

As I’ve also pointed out, fantasy literature has a rich history of heros using magic to affect a favorable outcome. Moreover, most of this literature escaped the Index librorum prohibitorum, so the supposed corrupting influence it is supposed to have on the mind should be viewed with deep skepticism. Even stories told specifically to children about Santa Claus involve actually getting children to believe that an old man has used witchcraft to both gain immortality and provide presents.

The comparison of fantasy literature to pornography is also, I think, a mistake. Pornographic media exists for no other reason than to showcase that which is sinful and present it as an objective good. The typical movie from the genre cannot tolerate even a coherent plot to get in the way of the sexual activity. It is meant to arouse feelings of lust. Fantasy literature, in the Harry Potter vein, only uses magic as a literary device. Indeed, in the Potter books, it is used as a device to reinforce the cardinal virtues.

This is not to say that the Potter books should not be approached with caution. Indeed, all literature meant for children should be. These are judgements that need to be made on an individual basis, taking into account the unique temperament of each child. This is a judgement best made by the child’s parent.
 
pnewton,

Can we please get one point straight? I never said the Poep condemned the books.

I agree, calling them evil is merely my opinion and my opinion does not make it so. However, God shows no ambiguity about sorcery and his objection to the use of the same. Since God condemns the practice, why would we want to encourage ANY glorification of those practices? It really comes down to something quite simple: we either take God’s Word seriously, or we do not.
 
40.png
DaveBj:
Typically, there is no God (LOTR, Harry Potter), and those characters who are so gifted use magic to do what they want to get done, whether for good or bad.
Click to expand...
You’re mistaken in the instance of LOTR. It’s a whole mythology and there is a god which is dealt with in the appendices (which were meant to be read as a story as well) and in The Silmarillion. The god’s name is rendered as Eru or Illuvitar (the One). Tolkien never comes out and says that this god figure is Yahweh, but Eru has some of the Judeo/Christian virtues attributed to God, implicitly described.
 
Other Eric,

The Bible is not a “may be infallible” source, it is an infallible source for faith and morals. This thread is just a reflection of our culture. So many people, even people who are good Catholics, justify all sorts of nonsense just because they like what they are doing. People enjoy reading HP, so they wish away the Biblical statements about sorcery and divination and they flat-out ignore the Catechism statements and the statements of the early Church.

Christianity has a great deal to do with unity of life. We either practice what we preach and believe, or we do not have unity of life.
Reading novels that encourage people to think about sorcery, etc., is not consistent with a life that is unified with Christ–imo.
 
40.png
TPJCatholic:
pnewton,

Can we please get one point straight? I never said the Poep condemned the books.

I agree, calling them evil is merely my opinion and my opinion does not make it so. However, God shows no ambiguity about sorcery and his objection to the use of the same. Since God condemns the practice, why would we want to encourage ANY glorification of those practices? It really comes down to something quite simple: we either take God’s Word seriously, or we do not.
Click to expand...
It’s a huge jump from reading/watching a fictional media to “glorifying” that media. If you’re gonna try and discern something using scripture as your backing you should tread carefully. You are invoking God as your prosecutor against those who enjoy the Potter books. :twocents:

Peace

btw I do this too. I mean it’s easy to do when we see people acting in ways that are gonna destroy themselves, e.g. participating in gay “marriage” I just think a lot of care is needed if you really wanna invoke scripture against someone’s secular practice. I’d definately look to the magisterium for advice.

peace again
 
peregrinator,

You voice many good questions. I feel that we must be careful about what we allow into our minds, I really do believe that when we open a door, satan will come in. With that in mind, adults must discern whether or not a given work encourages or discourages evil things like sorcery. Most fairy tales do dabble in things of the occult or magic or sorcery, yet they nearly always discourage the use of such things…and in cases where they do not, then people should approach them with great caution.
 
40.png
TPJCatholic:
pnewton,

Can we please get one point straight? I never said the Poep condemned the books.

I agree, calling them evil is merely my opinion and my opinion does not make it so. However, God shows no ambiguity about sorcery and his objection to the use of the same. Since God condemns the practice, why would we want to encourage ANY glorification of those practices? It really comes down to something quite simple: we either take God’s Word seriously, or we do not.
Click to expand...
I never said you made such a statement. That was the headline a news service used. There is a difference between practicing sorcery, glorifying sorcery and reading about sorcery. Reading a story that contains elements of magic, is not sorcery. It is not even glorifying sorcery. If this was the case many of the fine books listed above would not be permitted. In addition, the II Samuel in the Bible would need to be avoided.

One is totally able to read Harry Potter and take the Word of God as seriously as you do. You are also quite correct in the above post that extreme caution must be used in literature of this type. Perhaps I need to include a fourth category about reading literature that glorifies magic. This would fall into a category of using good judgement. I definitely would not blindly expose children to such literature without knowing it well.
 
MichaelT,

I agree, and that is why I sighted the Catechism references…the Church supports what I have siad–imo.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top