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TPJCatholic
Guest
pnewton,
Children are not.
Children are not.
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buffalo
Guest
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wabrams
Guest
TPJCatholic said:
Oh yeah, Rowling is part of a vast conspiracy to change the entire world’s culture. I think it’s part of the same conspiracy that says the Mossad carried out 9/11 and 7/7.
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Shiann
Guest
As there were no other counters to my previous posts, I will end my part in this with the following.
When I was a child, my younger brother was enthralled with all superheros. He had nearly every character of underoo ever made. His fave was Superman. He even borrowed my scratchy red knit tights to wear with his underoos. Mom made him a cape too. He would read the comics and proceed to invent his own little world where he was the hero and he jumped from the furniture to introduce flight into his “world”. He pretended to have xray vision and heat vision and ever other cool inhuman feat that Superman had.
But though he could completely believe that he was Superman in his imaginary world, something in him could seperate the fantasy from reality. What stopped him from jumping off the 10ft deck to his peril?
You are insinuating that because Harry Potter introduces fantastical things like magic that the children who read them will welcome New Age or Wiccan philosophies. I submit that this is no more so for Harry Potter, than it was for my freaky little brother who loved to pretend he was Superman.
You also have yet to point out where HP even supports the type of magic and sorcery discussed in the Catechism… I have offered evidence that this is symbolism for very Christian ideas.
You have yet to convince me that HP is the equivalent of a Ouiji board, or Tarot cards, or other REAL items that children can be drawn to. You have yet to determine why one fantasy fiction is ok and HP is not. The fact remains that HP is not anti christian (I can offer those links again if you wish…) A good 20 minutes spent researching alchemical symbolism in british literature could lay that to rest.
I offered counters to each of those ten arguments you offered, and I provided evidence for my claims. I also included a transcript of the Vatican radio address where Msgr. Fleetwood clarifies his position with Ms. Kuby. (Msgr. Peter Fleetwood is the man referenced in one of the letters from B16 to Ms. Kuby.)
He makes some VERY astute points, and the fact that he was a former official for the Pontifical Council for culture carries a lot of weight with me. More so than the person who drummed up these ten arguments with no evidence.
I wish to commend you on your dilligence to living a life of God. If you believe HP goes against that life, than you are completely within your rights to keep that from your home.
But you also have to realize that for every argument that you put forth that HP is evil - someone can put forth an argument for the contrary.
And because I am familiar with the symbolism in HP, I can use the book to instruct my daughter from a Christian perspective- while she enjoys the fantasy like my young brother did when he read Superman stuff.
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yochumjy
Guest
Apparently you got my message, since you are now argueing points that do NOT include the assertion that Cardinal Ratzinger is against the books. That was my whole point. You seem to refuse to accept that I have an issue with one point. That is too bad. I don’t have to refute everything you stand for just because I see one point that is just plain wrong.Again, you are not reading my words or messages…not much more to say really. You seem to have an obessession about one specific point, whereas I do not. Thanks for sharing though.
I also do not agree with you about the series, but that is secondary. I accept that you do not like the series. I accept that an unformed concious could be led astray, but the the LotR has the same problem. You could claim the LotR spawned a lot of D&D and fantasy series devotions, but that does not make LotR bad. It just makes people weak.
Peace
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Other_Eric
Guest
buffalo said:
Hi buffalo! That’s nothing more than speculation.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
*** There are Harry Potter parties.
*** There are Harry Potter costumes.
*** There are Harry Potter festivals and book readings.
*** Kids dress-up in HP garb for Haloween.
*** Harry Potter covers this nation coast-to-coast whenever a new releases comes out. Talk shows on the radio, tv programs, etc…they all elevate the joy and splendor of reading the HP books…they nearly all potificate about how wonderful it is that kids are reading the novels (seemingly without any thought as to whether or not the kids should be reading those bookds).
*** Harry Potter books are without question a cultural phenomenon that surpases nearly everything else in entertainment.
If that is not glorification of the contents of the books, then what is? The books do contain elements of the occult and of sorcery, etc…therefore, when people glorify Happy Potter books, they are glorifying the contents therein.
Do we want our kids glorifying sorcery, witchcraft, etc.?
Here is a troubling fact:
Wicca is one of the fastest growing religions in the world and its rapid growth has occurred during the same time period that the Harry Potter novels have reached huge heights of popluarity. Perhaps the novels have nothing to do with it…no-one can say with certainty. Yet, it is no stretch to think that the HP novels are not exactly hurting Wicca.
Do we want to do anything to encourage belief in the occult of Wicca?
*** There are Harry Potter costumes.
*** There are Harry Potter festivals and book readings.
*** Kids dress-up in HP garb for Haloween.
*** Harry Potter covers this nation coast-to-coast whenever a new releases comes out. Talk shows on the radio, tv programs, etc…they all elevate the joy and splendor of reading the HP books…they nearly all potificate about how wonderful it is that kids are reading the novels (seemingly without any thought as to whether or not the kids should be reading those bookds).
*** Harry Potter books are without question a cultural phenomenon that surpases nearly everything else in entertainment.
If that is not glorification of the contents of the books, then what is? The books do contain elements of the occult and of sorcery, etc…therefore, when people glorify Happy Potter books, they are glorifying the contents therein.
Do we want our kids glorifying sorcery, witchcraft, etc.?
Here is a troubling fact:
Wicca is one of the fastest growing religions in the world and its rapid growth has occurred during the same time period that the Harry Potter novels have reached huge heights of popluarity. Perhaps the novels have nothing to do with it…no-one can say with certainty. Yet, it is no stretch to think that the HP novels are not exactly hurting Wicca.
Do we want to do anything to encourage belief in the occult of Wicca?
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TPJCatholic
Guest
youchumjy,
But, I never was the one to focus on what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in his letter, it was merely one item in a list of twelve. IMO the Ratzinger quotes are likely authentic, yet it makes no difference if they are or not because the Church and God condemns the practice of sorcery, etc. The commandments also forbid such activity in that we are to worship God, and God alone. The books contain enough elements of condemned pratices for me to hold the opinion that they are highly dangerous books to read–especially for unformed Catholics and for all children.
I am a firm believer that satan is active in the world and that he constantly looks for our spiritual doors to be open to him. The Bible even teaches that we must watch out for this sort of thing because satan prowls around looking for the ruin of souls.
If one believes in God and His Son Jesus, then it only makes sense that they would also believe that satan and his wicked plans are also real. I just cannot fathom why anyone would even want to dabble in an area that cannot produce any good fruit.
But, I never was the one to focus on what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in his letter, it was merely one item in a list of twelve. IMO the Ratzinger quotes are likely authentic, yet it makes no difference if they are or not because the Church and God condemns the practice of sorcery, etc. The commandments also forbid such activity in that we are to worship God, and God alone. The books contain enough elements of condemned pratices for me to hold the opinion that they are highly dangerous books to read–especially for unformed Catholics and for all children.
I am a firm believer that satan is active in the world and that he constantly looks for our spiritual doors to be open to him. The Bible even teaches that we must watch out for this sort of thing because satan prowls around looking for the ruin of souls.
If one believes in God and His Son Jesus, then it only makes sense that they would also believe that satan and his wicked plans are also real. I just cannot fathom why anyone would even want to dabble in an area that cannot produce any good fruit.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Shiann,
Okay, good luck and God Bless. I am happy you are staying on-top of your children’s formation. I wish more parents would do the same, yet sadly most do not.
Okay, good luck and God Bless. I am happy you are staying on-top of your children’s formation. I wish more parents would do the same, yet sadly most do not.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
wabrams,
Do you believe that satan exists? If you do, do you think his intention is to see the ruin of as many souls as he can?
Did satan tempt Eve in the garden, or do you think that was just a mthyical event and not at all real?
Do you believe that satan exists? If you do, do you think his intention is to see the ruin of as many souls as he can?
Did satan tempt Eve in the garden, or do you think that was just a mthyical event and not at all real?
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TPJCatholic
Guest
To all,
Please go to the following link for an interesting homily centering on many of the issues I have raised:
desertvoice.org/written/Alti072504.htm
Here is an excerpt:
We live in a society that has embraced Satan wholeheartedly and they are living according to his standards. We have to make a choice. Are we going to stand up and be counted as a Catholic or are we not? Which is more important to you, to be considered your average typical American or to be considered a Catholic? All you have to do is look at the first reading today and then consider the political situation in which we live. They are scurrying with great and reckless abandon to make sure that homosexual marriage, as they call it (there is no such thing, but that is what they want to label it as), is legalized and protected. In Canada, the federal legislature has passed a law stating that if anyone even speaks out against homosexuality it is a federal crime. There are now two Protestant ministers who have been arrested and are awaiting trial in Canada for preaching the Gospel, for saying that homosexuality is wrong. It is not a politically correct thing, but being Catholic is not and never will be politically correct. Our own legislature is attempting as we speak to pass a similar law. Where are we going to stand? I can guarantee you if that law is passed it will not be long before I will be in jail – and I hope that you are there with me for standing up and being counted for what it means to be Catholic, instead of standing up for what it means nowadays to be an American.
**I just recently heard a statistic, if there is any question about what is going on. In 1990, there were 8,000 registered witches, Wiccans, in America; in the year 2,000, there were a half million. According to that article, Wicca is the fastest-growing religion in America. Wicca is witchcraft; it is Satanism. Isn’t it odd that you cannot, according to the law of the United States of America, bring a book that is Catholic or even Christian into a public school, but they will dole out Harry Potter and other books on witchcraft to the kids without even batting an eyelash? **
Please go to the following link for an interesting homily centering on many of the issues I have raised:
desertvoice.org/written/Alti072504.htm
Here is an excerpt:
We live in a society that has embraced Satan wholeheartedly and they are living according to his standards. We have to make a choice. Are we going to stand up and be counted as a Catholic or are we not? Which is more important to you, to be considered your average typical American or to be considered a Catholic? All you have to do is look at the first reading today and then consider the political situation in which we live. They are scurrying with great and reckless abandon to make sure that homosexual marriage, as they call it (there is no such thing, but that is what they want to label it as), is legalized and protected. In Canada, the federal legislature has passed a law stating that if anyone even speaks out against homosexuality it is a federal crime. There are now two Protestant ministers who have been arrested and are awaiting trial in Canada for preaching the Gospel, for saying that homosexuality is wrong. It is not a politically correct thing, but being Catholic is not and never will be politically correct. Our own legislature is attempting as we speak to pass a similar law. Where are we going to stand? I can guarantee you if that law is passed it will not be long before I will be in jail – and I hope that you are there with me for standing up and being counted for what it means to be Catholic, instead of standing up for what it means nowadays to be an American.
**I just recently heard a statistic, if there is any question about what is going on. In 1990, there were 8,000 registered witches, Wiccans, in America; in the year 2,000, there were a half million. According to that article, Wicca is the fastest-growing religion in America. Wicca is witchcraft; it is Satanism. Isn’t it odd that you cannot, according to the law of the United States of America, bring a book that is Catholic or even Christian into a public school, but they will dole out Harry Potter and other books on witchcraft to the kids without even batting an eyelash? **
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wabrams
Guest
To a certain degree I believe in Satan. But I don’t think Satan is behind the novels. Your reference to HP parties, movies, halloween costumes, etc., the same thing happend with Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. Should they we condemned too?
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TPJCatholic
Guest
wabrams,
So, do you think it is not likely that satan would use every tool he can to deceive people?
Star Wars and the like are not on the same level of HP. There is nothing wrong fantasy, nor reading and enjoying such things. HP presents occult practices as being good, they are not.
So, do you think it is not likely that satan would use every tool he can to deceive people?
Star Wars and the like are not on the same level of HP. There is nothing wrong fantasy, nor reading and enjoying such things. HP presents occult practices as being good, they are not.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
Thank you for your reply- I find your point of view very interesting.
I asked the question because this discussion reminded me of what I’d been reading in Chesterton’s Orthodoxy.
Chesterton takes a position exactly opposite to the one you voice above- he values fairy tales because of their magic ('though to be fair, I don’t think he ever mentions sorcery as such.) In fact, the reason that he discusses fairy tales at all is because he credits them as one of the root causes of his return to Christianity.
Anyhow, I don’t mean to use Chesterton as club with which to beat at your argument. I simply was quite (pleasantly) surprised to find Chesterton saying what he does, since he articulates (in a most unique fashion) something that I have often felt, but would never be able to formulate in words… and the discussion reminded me.
But I am now thoroughly off-topic and probably should go start a new thread.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
peregrinator,
All good points. Yet for every soul that might turn to Christianity as a result of being involved with magic, etc., how many will be lost? I suspect (and cannot prove) that many more souls will be lost, then saved.
I find it very troubling that kids walk around with HP magic wands in their hands casting spells on other kids in immitation of their HP heroes. They are young and they do not know the realities of what they are imitating, yet as they grow they can very easily desire the real thing. I personally believe that it is uncanny how well timed the growth of Wicca is with the incredible popularity of Harry Potter. Many kids were quite young when they were first bitten by the HP draw, and are now teenagers rebelling against all things from God.
All good points. Yet for every soul that might turn to Christianity as a result of being involved with magic, etc., how many will be lost? I suspect (and cannot prove) that many more souls will be lost, then saved.
I find it very troubling that kids walk around with HP magic wands in their hands casting spells on other kids in immitation of their HP heroes. They are young and they do not know the realities of what they are imitating, yet as they grow they can very easily desire the real thing. I personally believe that it is uncanny how well timed the growth of Wicca is with the incredible popularity of Harry Potter. Many kids were quite young when they were first bitten by the HP draw, and are now teenagers rebelling against all things from God.
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi TPJCatholic!
How can Star Wars in any way be different from Harry Potter? The series approvingly features the Jedi nights, who use the supernatural to effect their environment for their own ends. The Force is used in Star Wars in exactly the same way that magic is used in Harry Potter. In fact, if you wanted to be strict about it, Star Wars is worse because it mocks the Virgin Birth, promotes Gnostic heresy, and glorifies both through its marketing.
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wabrams
Guest
I don’t sit around all day screaming that everything that possibly could be used in a bad way is Satan trying to decieve us. So, no, I don’t think Satan uses every tool to decieve us.
And so does Star Wars, LOTR, etc.
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pnewton
Guest
As far as the practices in LOTR, necromancy is practiced by Aragorn, divination by Galadriel and magic by the wizard Gandolf. I think however that the fantastic setting in a mythical world (and a futuristic setting in Star Wars) makes such practices more distant than a boarding house setting, however bizarre.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Other Eric,
I agree with you on the virgin birth analysis regarding Star Wars. Yet, I feel you are way off base on those movies in general. Star Wars presents not only a good versus evil story, but it presents it such a way that everyone knows that the evil is evil, and that good must prevail. In Harry Potter evil is considered good…and there is an incredible blurring of the lines between good and evil. The Jedi Nights are basically a religious order with mandatory celibacy and a “good” code that must be followed. The dark side is presented and seen only as pure evil…no ambiguity whatsover. It is the fuzziness between the good and dark forces that makes HP so bad.
Harry learns to do magic potions, tricks and other forms of magix. The books presents the thought that good magic can be used for good purposes, yet we know there is not such thing as good magic…it is all from satan.
In the books Harry never prays, Jedis learn and practice in a Temple and they often are seen in contemplitive modes.
In HP during a satanic ritual Lord Voldemont is raised from the dead and it is made to look natural or cool. In Star Wars Anikan wants to be able to have the power to save a person from death or to even raise them fdrom the dead, yet that is shown as a perversion.
Inthe books they toss bones and blood from Harry into a pot while proclaiming magic sayings, etc…it is very religious in its approach, yet is is dark side religion.
There is no comparison between Star Wars and HP. SW is a tale of genuine good against genuine evil. HP is a tale of evil against evil, while trying to make all of the interlaced evil look good.
We all know that good and evil exists…it is wise not to ignore it, yet we must be careful how we present the evil side of life, we must not romaticize the evil, which is what HP does.
I agree with you on the virgin birth analysis regarding Star Wars. Yet, I feel you are way off base on those movies in general. Star Wars presents not only a good versus evil story, but it presents it such a way that everyone knows that the evil is evil, and that good must prevail. In Harry Potter evil is considered good…and there is an incredible blurring of the lines between good and evil. The Jedi Nights are basically a religious order with mandatory celibacy and a “good” code that must be followed. The dark side is presented and seen only as pure evil…no ambiguity whatsover. It is the fuzziness between the good and dark forces that makes HP so bad.
Harry learns to do magic potions, tricks and other forms of magix. The books presents the thought that good magic can be used for good purposes, yet we know there is not such thing as good magic…it is all from satan.
In the books Harry never prays, Jedis learn and practice in a Temple and they often are seen in contemplitive modes.
In HP during a satanic ritual Lord Voldemont is raised from the dead and it is made to look natural or cool. In Star Wars Anikan wants to be able to have the power to save a person from death or to even raise them fdrom the dead, yet that is shown as a perversion.
Inthe books they toss bones and blood from Harry into a pot while proclaiming magic sayings, etc…it is very religious in its approach, yet is is dark side religion.
There is no comparison between Star Wars and HP. SW is a tale of genuine good against genuine evil. HP is a tale of evil against evil, while trying to make all of the interlaced evil look good.
We all know that good and evil exists…it is wise not to ignore it, yet we must be careful how we present the evil side of life, we must not romaticize the evil, which is what HP does.
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi TPJCatholic!
It sounds to me as if you are falling into the same trap that you accuse the Potter defenders on here of. You’re defending Star Wars merely because you happen to like it. Star Wars is also evil against evil. The Jedi nights have a temple in which they practice a perverse form of eastern spirituality. Yoda says in the Empire Strikes Back “luminous beings are we, not this crude matter,” and Jedi nights are said to “become one with the Force,” the Force being nothing more than a mystical energy field, which contradicts the Theology of the Body and ultimately the Resurrection. Moreover Luke uses necromancy to communicate with a dead Obi-Wan.
The so-called “light” side of the Force is nothing more than sorcery by another name used to affect good. It is evil in exactly the same way that the “good” magic in Harry Potter is evil. There is no rational distinction to be made. Evil is made to look suave and sophisticated in Star Wars. The acrobatic skills of the Sith are suave and seductive and not even Yoda can overcome them. Palpatine’s transformation scene in Revenge of the Sith is every bit as “cool” as Voldemort’s resurrection from Book 4.
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