Texas School District Will Let Teachers Carry Guns

[The_Barbarian]

I’m an NRA member this is untrue please provide your source?

Article in the Dallas Morning News last summer. Apparently some group (VPC?) had realized that CHL holders were arrested for firearms violations more than other Texans, and made much of it. NRA members were outraged, and were lobbying the lege to hide the statistics.

 

[whatevergirl]

Funny, most prison guards/correctional officers are not armed (at least the ones with direct contact w/ the prisoners aere unarmed), so I fail to see how this can be compared to a prison.

There are firearms on site–not necessarily that every guard is carrying a gun…if there is a riot, they are carrying guns…

I don’t agree with teachers packing guns. I don’t have to agree with the general slant on here about this–I think it teaches nothing…for generations in this country, this was never necessary. Keep the doors locked, and get police to patrol. Teachers shouldn’t have to be put into positions like this.

But, if you disagree…I won’t argue it with you. This is my opinion.

 

[The_Barbarian]

First, you keep copying and pasting bad arguements over and over.

If so, you should be delighted. It would degrade my credibility. I am certainly pleased that you are repeating the same arguments you use.

Second, it does not matter that most of the time when a weapon is drawn that it is not fired; what matters (per this discussion) is that the weapon was drawn w/ the INTENT to use it.

My observation was that the evidence shows that police don’t fire their guns most times that they draw them. Then “INTENT” isn’t really measurable.

You do not seem to understand that.

See above. Understand now?

On a side note, what kind of ER duties do you/have you performed?

I was NCOIC of an ER when I was in the service.

 

[wabrams]

I probably have most all here beat on evaluating the drunk and drugged, so I will interrupt with my latest funny story. A twenty year old on a DWI calling home is over-enunciating every word to try and not sound drunk.

“Call my mom and everybody. I am here on a D - W - I. Drinking While Intoxicated.”

That was tonight.

 

[wabrams]

If so, you should be delighted. It would degrade my credibility. I am certainly pleased that you are repeating the same arguments you use.

My observation was that the evidence shows that police don’t fire their guns most times that they draw them. Then “INTENT” isn’t really measurable.

See above. Understand now?

Intent is measurable b/c every time the intent is to use that firearm in applying deadly force.

 

[panoikei]

God Bless Texas!

And all of us in Texas…we’re gonna need it.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
If so, you should be delighted. It would degrade my credibility. I am certainly pleased that you are repeating the same arguments you use.

My observation was that the evidence shows that police don’t fire their guns most times that they draw them. Then “INTENT” isn’t really measurable.

See above. Understand now?

Intent is measurable b/c every time the intent is to use that firearm in applying deadly force.

I doubt if most officers plan on shooting someone every time they draw a gun. Most of them, if they are competent, do it to keep from shooting someone.

You didn’t asnwer this question:

On a side note, what kind of ER duties do you/have you performed?

I said I was an NCOIC of an emergency room. You probably missed it, or maybe didn’t understand what I said. That is, I was the Non-commissioned Officer in Charge. I supervised, trained new troops, did whatever procedures were necessary, and so on. When I had that assignment, I was at a base in the US, in a high-crime area.

Want some war stories?

 

[wabrams]

I doubt if most officers plan on shooting someone every time they draw a gun. Most of them, if they are competent, do it to keep from shooting someone.

It doesn’t matter what you think their intent was, b/c there is no way to be sure. We do know that by law in all fifty states they cannot draw their weapons unless they have the intent to use that weapon.

I said I was an NCOIC of an emergency room. You probably missed it, or maybe didn’t understand what I said. That is, I was the Non-commissioned Officer in Charge. I supervised, trained new troops, did whatever procedures were necessary, and so on. When I had that assignment, I was at a base in the US, in a high-crime area.

Want some war stories?

I caught it after I refreshed the page and I edited my last post accordingly.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
I doubt if most officers plan on shooting someone every time they draw a gun. Most of them, if they are competent, do it to keep from shooting someone.

It doesn’t matter what you think their intent was

That’s right, because I wasn’t telling you about their intent, I was telling you about their behavior.

 

[KenEOTE]

I doubt if most officers plan on shooting someone every time they draw a gun. Most of them, if they are competent, do it to keep from shooting someone.

I’d say they also do it so as not to be shot. Or attacked. So when they draw there weapon the “bad” person knows that hey they could take me out I better put my gun down or I better do what I am told.

 

[The_Barbarian]

I’d say they also do it so as not to be shot. Or attacked. So when they draw there weapon the “bad” person knows that hey they could take me out I better put my gun down or I better do what I am told.

Absolutely. Most often, a drawn gun prevents violence. If you look at NRA stats, intruders often retreat as soon as they realize that the person in the house has a weapon at hand. The problem is that police are trained to the right combination of force and restraint (and I’m amazed that any group of people could so often make that critical decision correctly) to minimize the need for violence, but civilians are not.

And so guns are often more dangerous to have at hand than not to have at hand.

 

[melensdad]

In an eery kind of way, this school sounds like it is going to resemble more of a prison, than a school. The teachers being guards…armed with guns if the inmates…oops… students, get out of hand. Again, not sure what the answer is…but, it’s just a sad commentary on where things are going.

I think you make an excellent point in this post. While The Barbarian chatters on endless repeating his mantra and avoiding simple questions, you have really picked up on something that is missing from this thread.

The school administrator who started this whole story by allowing guns has already admitted that his schools are very secure, with ‘one way’ locked doors, secure entry, inspection of visitors, etc. Doesn’t sound like the elementary school I attended in the 1960’s where teachers would open wide the doors at the end of the hall to let in a breeze and where students were most afraid of being caught with bubble gum!

 

[whatevergirl]

I think you make an excellent point in this post. While The Barbarian chatters on endless repeating his mantra and avoiding simple questions, you have really picked up on something that is missing from this thread.

The school administrator who started this whole story by allowing guns has already admitted that his schools are very secure, with ‘one way’ locked doors, secure entry, inspection of visitors, etc. Doesn’t sound like the elementary school I attended in the 1960’s where teachers would open wide the doors at the end of the hall to let in a breeze and where students were most afraid of being caught with bubble gum!

Hi melensdad…

I understand that in difficult to manage schools, there needs to be some extreme measures taken. In many schools in Florida (and we live in a very nice suburb and it is happening at my children’s schools) there are policeman assigned to various schools, and remain there most of the day–I think that is the answer.

What’s next? My employer should be able to carry a gun? Cashiers at the grocery store? At Target? At the mall? Where does this end?

Teachers are not equipped nor trained like police to handle situations where they might have to fire a gun, so I can see mayhem taking place, and perhaps innocent people getting hurt, if there were a violent incident. This cannot be the only course of action to take–I say keep hounding the police to patrol the schools.

The social problem with kids today, stems largely from their households, and from being bullied at school. I think that schools around the country, should implement strong anti-bullying laws, and enforce them. My dd tells me that even playful joking can land a kid in detention. Sadly, we live in such a PC society, that simple jokes are not seen as funny anymore, but bullying really can destroy kids’ esteem, and schools need to be more vigilant in preventing this type of thing. If schools are concerned with a random adult intruder breaking into the school, and taking kids lives…again, policemen are better (best) trained to deal with such situations. Not teachers.

I am well aware that we live in a society that is different from the ‘open door policy’ that you and I grew up with melensdad…but, there is a better way than allowing teachers to carry guns. Thank you for your comment, I thought I was alone in thinking that this can’t be good.

 

[pnewton]

The problem is that police are trained to the right combination of force and restraint (and I’m amazed that any group of people could so often make that critical decision correctly) to minimize the need for violence, but civilians are not.
.

I agree with this difference, except that I do not see that as a problem. An assailant is more likely to be killed, instead of disarmed, this way.

 

[melensdad]

What’s next? My employer should be able to carry a gun? Cashiers at the grocery store? At Target? At the mall? Where does this end?

Well you might be shocked to learn that they already carry guns. And have been for many years. Florida has one of the highest rates of ‘concealed carry’ in the nation. My state of Indiana has allowed all this for something over 70 years. 1 in 11 adults has a concealed carry permit. Most every shop owner, manager, etc I know carries a gun. It is simply normal.

Teachers are not equipped nor trained like police to handle situations where they might have to fire a gun, so I can see mayhem taking place, and perhaps innocent people getting hurt, if there were a violent incident. This cannot be the only course of action to take–I say keep hounding the police to patrol the schools.

Well in the Texas school district they simply do not have a local police department, so hounding the police won’t help. There is a sheriff’s department, located 30 miles away. But please realize the teachers are, in fact, trained just like policemen, to handle guns and, in fact, those who choose do carry a gun in school, take extra training in conflict resolution beyond what the police learn.

If schools are concerned with a random adult intruder breaking into the school, and taking kids lives…again, policemen are better (best) trained to deal with such situations.

Again, you and I are in total agreement, but again, this school system exists outside of any town or city that has police. There is NO POLICE DEPARTMENT in this area. The closest thing is the county sheriff, again they are 30 miles away.

I actually do understand the logic of those who oppose this, but I don’t understand why those who oppose this keep overlaying their personal situation over this school district. We don’t all live in rich white suburban safe areas. I know I don’t. I live 5 miles outside of the nearest small town, half a county away from any hospital, movie theater or sheriff’s car. . . and I don’t live in a very rural area compared to the Texas school we are talking about.

 

[mlchance]

The problem is that police are trained to the right combination of force and restraint (and I’m amazed that any group of people could so often make that critical decision correctly) to minimize the need for violence, but civilians are not.

Civilians are not trained regarding force and restraint? That’s odd. I guess I’ve just imagined participating in restraint techniques training related to my civilian employment as a teacher.

How odd.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[whatevergirl]

Well you might be shocked to learn that they already carry guns. And have been for many years. Florida has one of the highest rates of ‘concealed carry’ in the nation. My state of Indiana has allowed all this for something over 70 years. 1 in 11 adults has a concealed carry permit. Most every shop owner, manager, etc I know carries a gun. It is simply normal.

Well in the Texas school district they simply do not have a local police department, so hounding the police won’t help. There is a sheriff’s department, located 30 miles away. But please realize the teachers are, in fact, trained just like policemen, to handle guns and, in fact, those who choose do carry a gun in school, take extra training in conflict resolution beyond what the police learn.

Again, you and I are in total agreement, but again, this school system exists outside of any town or city that has police. There is NO POLICE DEPARTMENT in this area. The closest thing is the county sheriff, again they are 30 miles away.

I actually do understand the logic of those who oppose this, but I don’t understand why those who oppose this keep overlaying their personal situation over this school district. We don’t all live in rich white suburban safe areas. I know I don’t. I live 5 miles outside of the nearest small town, half a county away from any hospital, movie theater or sheriff’s car. . . and I don’t live in a very rural area compared to the Texas school we are talking about.

Actually the Columbine incident…those kids were ‘rich’ and ‘white,’ I believe. I think that with how angry kids seem nowadays, it is not related to any particular demographic. I think inner cities, have a lot more incidents to deal with–but believe me, having a policeman at my dd’s and ds’ school every day…there are really no violent incidences to my knowledge. And we live in a nice area–but Florida is a melting pot of weird situations. Just last year, prior to us moving here, one of my dd’s friends told us that one of her classmates’ dads killed the mom and their kids…and this was about 2 miles up the road. So, it seems that violence doesn’t have any specific demographic anymore…that’s so scary!

I hear what you are saying–I just think with more and more ‘civilians’ carrying guns for ‘protection,’ more and more incidents like my dd’s friend mentions, will be more commonplace. I don’t think that the dad bought the gun with the motive to kill–it was in their house for protection already.

Perhaps I’m biased. When I was little…around 6 y.o., my BIL was over my mom and dad’s house, and he was a cop. He hid his gun in a spot where he thought I wouldn’t find it, most likely. Well, it was in our basement…and I played a lot down there–and lo and behold…I found it. My parents hadn’t seen me for a few minutes…and went looking for me, shocked to see me with the cabinet open to our bar downstairs…looking at a gun. I just think that when we create a society that increases its need for guns, the society actually will become more fearful…not fearless.

 

[Wolseley]

It happens. But if you think that’s the norm, you aren’t living in this universe.

That’s reassuring. After reading so many of your posts, Barb, I’m quite certain that I don’t want to live in your universe.

“Crackhead”, um? Did you know that there’s no detectable behavior differences between crack use and snorting coke?

And if the indvidual in question is waving a pistol at you, what difference does it make?

Unless you do ER duty, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Sort of like you with police work.

However, if you have some checkable numbers showing that most people on which police draw a gun are “Charging Crackheads”, I’d be pleased to see them.

I never said that, and you know it. Nice try, though.

You’re arguing with yourself again. The issue is whether or not police generally shoot at someone after they draw a gun. Mostly, they don’t.

Well, you’d certainly know more about it than I would. You’ve worked in law enforcement much longer than I have, so you have better first-hand experience.

Oh, wait…

 

[SacredHeartFan]

yeah but they better not try using the paddle

i know this is from wayyyy in the front of the thread but I was brought up with a paddle at my school as well as my friends and we have turned out a lot better than the kids from the other primary schools. discipline has been used for millions of years and people have always come out fine and wellbehaved. Some crazed scientist an’t cahnge history.

 

[a_priori]

This article represents an interesting juxtaposition. Herein lies a metaphor for the very nature of mankind. We are made in God’s image and aspire to the higher things such as education. We are also fallen and often take the low road to the extent that deadly weapons are necessary sometimes when we interact.

So much for the perfectibility of man in this world. As necessary as this policy may be, it is not a cause for celebration but rather an acknowledgment of the stenchy side of man. It shines a light on an abject failure.