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KathleenGee
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I think people get mixed up in what is God’s time vs linear time, earth time…space…state of being.
Heaven is a state of being. When we are in Christ, we are in God’s eternal time. As Catholics, those who have gone before us are before the Lord. They can see Him, and they can see us…as Scripture says,’ Heaven watches us with a thousand eyes.’ And in those times, a thousand then could be compared to a billion today.
When we are in Christ, we simply pass from this life into the next, living in Christ’s eternal life. We are all united in Him. And we pray for those who have passed on as they pray for us before the Lord.
Another issue, is that the Church’s understanding of the sanctified life has been reflected in common themes, may be different charisms, but nevertheless pointing to the same goal: Jesus Christ. We have had many saints and doctors who have shared their relationship with Christ with us, have developed a system of it, ‘the walk in perfection’.
The Church is essentially mystical, not completely of this earth. We have studied the lives of the saints in relationship to ourselves and our walk and struggles in gaining mastery over our sinful inclinations. The more we study and reflect, the more we study who we are not, and Who Christ is, all of this likewise reflects on the Blessed Mother. In ways, she is a creature like us, but she was especially made, especially redeemed and saved by Christ at her conception, and she did not earn death through the wages of sin.
So we assume’ Mary was gloriously taken to heaven, it not clear whether she was raised or died.
She is with the saints and she is with us. We cannot think of heaven in our terms, but in mystery, and as a state of being.
Heaven is a state of being. When we are in Christ, we are in God’s eternal time. As Catholics, those who have gone before us are before the Lord. They can see Him, and they can see us…as Scripture says,’ Heaven watches us with a thousand eyes.’ And in those times, a thousand then could be compared to a billion today.
When we are in Christ, we simply pass from this life into the next, living in Christ’s eternal life. We are all united in Him. And we pray for those who have passed on as they pray for us before the Lord.
Another issue, is that the Church’s understanding of the sanctified life has been reflected in common themes, may be different charisms, but nevertheless pointing to the same goal: Jesus Christ. We have had many saints and doctors who have shared their relationship with Christ with us, have developed a system of it, ‘the walk in perfection’.
The Church is essentially mystical, not completely of this earth. We have studied the lives of the saints in relationship to ourselves and our walk and struggles in gaining mastery over our sinful inclinations. The more we study and reflect, the more we study who we are not, and Who Christ is, all of this likewise reflects on the Blessed Mother. In ways, she is a creature like us, but she was especially made, especially redeemed and saved by Christ at her conception, and she did not earn death through the wages of sin.
So we assume’ Mary was gloriously taken to heaven, it not clear whether she was raised or died.
She is with the saints and she is with us. We cannot think of heaven in our terms, but in mystery, and as a state of being.
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rinnie
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pocohombre
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ufamtobie
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poco, the Lutheran confessions are in agreement. There is no example (except the dream in 2 Macc), command, or promise attached to invocation of the saints.
And yet, I read Christ’s own words in Luke 15:7, 7 *Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance, * and I wonder, just wonder, particularly since invocation has been the practice both East and West for many centuries.
Or, they pray for us unceasingly, and if they can’t hear our prayers, it makes sense for us to pray that God listen to theirs.
Jon
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pocohombre
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concretecamper
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pocohombre
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SteveVH
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pocohombre
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concretecamper
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pocohombre
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Hi. Yes, precisely, the method of contact. The phone is totally cool and permissible. Reminds me of a President Bush joke. At his Texas ranch office he had two phones, one was long distance to the Kremlin, the other was local, to reach God…(Texas…God’s country…get it ?) I don’t think there is a phone that puts us in contact directly with saints in heaven.
No, did not infer that at all. Meant just what I thought Jon meant ( I think), talking to God but referencing saints prayers for us. No, I have been careful to interchange pray, intercede and talk as same thing. There was a post where I did say or infer that there could be times that praying for intercession from heavenly saints could be wrong, in the context that a direct prayer to the Lord is needed, at times ( though I myself don’t agree with that anytime-talking to heavenly saints). So nothing to do with “worship” but a bit to do with proper roles of saints and the Godhead. A little bit like He is a jealous God and would not want any powers or functions to be misunderstood or misused. .
Because we partly are ? The body of Christ is in two places right now, and there is some interfacing. I just disagree with the amount of interfacing you claim is possible or proper. I am one with a brother in Christ in China but unless the Spirit presents me a word of knowledge on need I can only pray for him in general, and can not really communicate that easily with him. Just as a cell from our eyes can not communicate directly with a cell from our liver yet both are part of the same body. The best one can say is they do indirectly, maybe thru our computer brain, but still indirect. Don’t you admit our union with heavenly saints will be better someday ? Why would Paul say he desired the benefit of death, that there was a loss and a gain in death.
Thanks. I always thought there had to be verifiable miracles while they were alive. Are you saying one after death counts, like a relic or cloth or by name invocation ? There are biblical examples or signs for verifying the message /messenger (healings from Paul’s cloth’s ?). I see that as praying to God invoking saint which is different than talking to saint directly with petition.
Blessings.
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pocohombre
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concretecamper
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pocohombre
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KathleenGee
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I have become very busy, and am not able to frequent CAF as before. I may add a comment here…in regards to how does Mary hear us? How do the saints hear us?
They hear us in Christ at the heavenly altar.
So we have to go back to the Mass. Jesus is the High Priest Who is active in His divine mission, being wounded but triumphant before the Heavenly Father, and united to us here on earth, especially the Mass.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is said every hour all over the entire world, offered not only for Catholics but for every human being as atonement for sins that are being committed throughout this world.
At the altar in heaven are the angels and saints, including Mary.in constant praise of the Lord and likewise, praying for us and our coming to glory with them someday if we persevere in Christ.
They hear us in Christ at the heavenly altar.
So we have to go back to the Mass. Jesus is the High Priest Who is active in His divine mission, being wounded but triumphant before the Heavenly Father, and united to us here on earth, especially the Mass.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is said every hour all over the entire world, offered not only for Catholics but for every human being as atonement for sins that are being committed throughout this world.
At the altar in heaven are the angels and saints, including Mary.in constant praise of the Lord and likewise, praying for us and our coming to glory with them someday if we persevere in Christ.
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rinnie
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rinnie;11240088:
In Rev, prayers of the Saints under the from of incense as told to us by St John,
I am kind of at a loss of what you are asking. I mean if the Saints did not hear our prayers how could they be offering them up to God?
Again in Rev 5:8 it tells us the prayers of the Saints being offered up to God.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the question. I do that at times
Maybe you could ask it another way.
Hi Steve,
I’m going to respond here, since Poco was writing about something I posted, and I don’t want any misunderstanding.
I can’t speak for Poco, but the reason I practice it as prayer to God has nothing to do with the misconception that Catholics worship (latria) the saints. It has to do with “no command, example, or promise” regarding invocation of the saints.
Jon
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Randy_Carson
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Some doctrines are explicitly stated in the Bible. “The bread which I shall give is my flesh” is clear on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Others, like purgatory or the perpetual virginity of Mary, are understood after considering the implications of what has been revealed.
Let’s look at what we know about praying to the saints.
The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture
1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament
“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)
In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.
2. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)
In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.
3. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example
“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)
At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though. Of course, as God, Jesus did not need to speak face to face with Moses and Elijah, but because Jesus was also fully human, it makes sense that they would appear to him in a way that his human senses could understand.
4. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example
“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)
5. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation
“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)
The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?
“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)
Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.
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From these examples and the constant teaching of the Catholic Church, we can be confident that the saints are aware of what is happening on earth, that they hear our prayers addressed to them, and that they intercede before the Father on our behalf.
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