The Catholic Church is WRONG about same sex marriage

[ProLifeAction]

GayCatholic:
This is just silly. I do not read the bible too much and have seen 4 quotes about the “homosexual act” being evil. We are told to love the person & dislike the act.

The human sexual act has 2 variables – “sexual gratification” & “openess to life”. God’s Natural Law has both variables included in ONE ACTION. If God wanted us to obtain one variable without the other, God would have created a SECOND ACTION. Who are we to question God’s Will?

To justify the “homosexual act” you must also justify other forms of sex with takes the “self gratification” and rejects the “openess to life” like contraception, pedifilia (man and boy), self mastery & beastiality (man and animal).

Do you believe marriage is a contract between 2 persons? If so, why?

 

[Edwin1961]

kristalyn:

Dear sir,

the Catholic Church is not wrong about gay marriage. Yes, we are to treat one another with love, as Jesus commanded. That is why I speak to you with kindness and not with anger. I have made mistakes and sinned myself. That doesn’t make the church wrong, though.

Marriage is not a right–something that everyone is entitled to. If it were, then you would have as much a right to be married as anyone else.

Marriage is absolutely a unique relationship. It’s not just another contract. If it were, then gay couples would be completely satisfied with “civil unions” and not be pushing for “marriage”. Marriage is different, and everyone knows it.

My single friends do not have the right to call themselves married. Marriage is between one man and one woman. A man and two women do not have the right to call themselves married. A marriage is between one man and one woman. A man and a child do not have the right to call themselves married. A marriage is between one man and one woman. Two men do not have the right to call themselves married! Marriage is between one man and one woman.

If same sex marriages are allowed because “it’s discriminatory” to exclude certain people from it, then the doors are open and marriage as we know it is ended. One man and two women can petition against discrimination; pedophiles and children will be “victims of discrimination”; single people will cry out against the discrimination they suffer because they can’t get “marriage” benefits.

Throughout the entire history of the world, marriage has been defined as unique relationship between one man and one woman. There have been notable exceptions, and those societies either don’t exist anymore, or are scorned by the world. We don’t intend for the United States OR the Catholic Church to dissolve itself or to become the scorn of the world.

Marriage is unique. It is between one man and one woman. If you choose to disregard that, so be it. Every Catholic is a sinner, and makes the decisions about his/her behavior that determine the fate of his eternal soul. The choices YOU make do not make the standing of the Church wrong.

I wish you the best, and pray that you will reconsider your opinion of the Church’s position on this matter.

I would hate to see other ‘marriages’…
a person and a pet?
a person and their car?
a person and themselves?
(mirror theology…BobCatholic where are you when I need you)

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[Apologia100]

I personally believe that this topic should be locked. I don’t believe that the Catholic Answers Forum is intended to be a platform for political lobbying. Just because you are emphatic about your beliefs, doesn’t make them right. God condemns all aberrant forms of sexual relations equally, whether it be pedophelia, homosexually, fornication, or adultery. God created woman for man, and intended sexuality to be a unifying and procreative force within that union. Anything outside of that is forbidden by God. Does God love you as a person, absolutely. Does God condemn the act of engaging in sexual relations outside of a sacramentally valid marriage, absolutely. Will the Church ever allow the sacremental validation of same sex couples, NEVER. Therefore, intentionally engaging in sexual relations outside of a valid marriage is always gravely sinful, regardless of your opinion on the matter. It has taught dogmatically on this issue for 2,000 years and will not change because the Holy Spirit protects her from falling into error. The same statement cannot be made about passionate opinions.

 

[Poisson]

GayCatholic:

I still hear the saying “What would Jesus do?” I know, when I get married to the the MAN that I love, and when we make our vows before God, Jesus will be with us, celebrating with us just as He did at the wedding in Cana. Because God is love, and love is never wrong.

Love may never be wrong but that does not mean it should lead to marriage. I love my children but this love must be kept in the correct context. I cannot marry my children, my siblings, my parents or my dog no matter how much I love them. IF love is the only criteria for marriage then we are in deep trouble.

If the Catholic Church can be so wrong about an issue as important as homosexuality then how can we trust it on anything. Everything is up for grabs. The only reason to trust the Church’s teachings is the claim that it has it authority from up above. If we can’t trust it on one thing then we can’t trust it on anything and we all become agnostic.

 

[kamz]

gay catholic: you wrote: God is love and love is never wrong?

Oh, how that can open up a pandora’s box…a adult has sex with a minor and God is love and love is never wrong?

The minor thinks they love the adult they don’t know better they don’t think of it as molestation so they think of it as love, so what, now we allow children and adults to have sex because they love eachother?

I love my cousins, dad, brother, but if I have sex with them that is gross and immoral but as you say, I love them and they love me so thats ok because God is love and love is never wrong.

Gay Catholic, you have your views and you are so far into your sin you can’t see anything but the sin and its pointless and I mean pointless to argue with you.

Keep going to church you belong there but change the church?
Maybe you should start a poll to ask how many Catholics are going to let you change the church? If the Catholic church ever stated that (ok now we have rethought it and it ok to be a practicing gay and we will marry you etc.) there would be such an uproar, it will never happen, but you can keep dreaming.

 

[Edwin1961]

Simply put…We should all pray for Mr. GayCatholic to really experience the Love of God.
I would hate to find out whether he does go to Holy Communion? But that is between Him and God…but beware of unworthy Communion!

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[Poisson]

GayCatholic:

ok, well if you are going to DENY me my equal rights and say i cannot get married, then you better start preaching to everyone else who has sex outside of marriage. millions of hetreosexuals do. where is the outcry?

There are no advocacy groups trying to legitimize adultery that I know of. There are some pedophelia groups (NAMBLA) but most see them as the wackos they are. The point is that most people already acknowledge those things are sinful.

 

[Shibboleth]

In regards to Sodomy,

I am not sure of the definition being used in this conversation. The word Sodomite simply means a person from the city of Sodom just as Moabite means a person from Moab, and Dolamite was a rockn’ dude from the 70’s infused with the power of funk.

Lot was a Sodomite.

No word for “sodomy” exists in biblical Hebrew or Greek.

Genesis 19:5 uses the word “yada” which literally translated means “to know, or to be familiar with”… people claim that this means they wanted to have intercourse with the strangers, this might be the case - it is used as such a few times in the OT.

Even if they are referring to “intercourse” the story is more about gang rape then anything.

If you want “to know” to mean intercourse fine but be careful.

Matt 1:25
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife; and **knew her not ** till she had brought forth her first-born son and he called His name Jesus

People might be interested to know that homosexual males do not engage in sodomy as much as we are led to believe. Most homosexual couples prefer some other form of coital activity.

So if you are using the word “sodomy” to condemn homosexual behavior, think twice…

 

[ChrisR246]

God’s love is creative. The spousal love between a man and a woman takes part with God in that creative love and creates new life. I’m sorry, but homosexual love is not the same because it is not procreative (and, neither is masterbatory self love, contraceptive coupling, etc)

God created me this way, I did not CHOOSE to be gay

I’m certain adulterers would make the same claim - that they did not choose to love someone in addition to their spouse, they were made that way. Does that absolve them of their sin, too? Should they be allowed polygamy?

I do not belive God intends for me to go through my life ALONE without the love and support of a spouse.

Can you quote Scripture or Tradition where God promised everyone a spouse?

In 1633, the Roman Catholic Inquisition sentenced Galileo to life in prison for teaching the Copernican theory that the earth revolves around the sun.

Your original claim was

Afterall, the Church finally figured out the earth isn’t flat and that it actually revolves around the sun. People died for believing such things before the Church figured out where it went wrong.

(Bolding added by me for emphasis)

1. Life imprisonment is not death. So please show us someone who died.
2. Galileo was not imprisoned for life
3. Galileo served his “imprisonment” under house arrest
4. It was a tribunal of Cardinals, not an infallible ecumenical council that condemned Galileo
5. Galileo was not condemned for teaching circular heliocentrism. He was condemned for insisting that Scripture was wrong.

Besides, Galileo was wrong. He taught circular heliocentrism with a fixed Sun. Though the heliocentrism was right, the circular part and fixed Sun part were wrong. The planets orbit the sun in ellipses, not circles. At the time, it could be shown that the planets were not orbiting the sun in circles, because the motions were not regualr enough. And we now know that, though the Earth and othe planets move around the Sun, the Sun also moves through the universe.

 

[Mike_O]

GayCatholic:

I am a gay man, and I am Catholic, and YES a person can be BOTH and still find favor in God’s eyes.

And who has told you this? Do you have some access to God that other Catholics do not?

GayCatholic:

I am OPEN about my sexual orientation (God created me this way, I did not CHOOSE to be gay) and I am VERY ACTIVE in my church and I am part of the paid staff.

Have you sought rehabilitation? There are many groups devoted to curing homosexuals, and the fact that many avowed “I didn’t choose” homosexuals ARE cured lends little credence to your claim that you were “born that way.”

GayCatholic:

And for me, my spouse would be another gay man. We have the same exact love any man and woman share, and love is never wrong.

How can you know you have the same love as a man and a woman? You do not, because you have never had this. Much of the homosexual culture reeks of anything BUT love. The following article might provide you some perspective: federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=223

GayCatholic:

I constantly have the same Bible versers quoted to me over and over… It always strikes me that when it comes to homosexuality, it seems it’s ok to take things out of context and to attach extraordinary moral value to a few lines of Biblical text. This is not done for any other issue except for homosexuality.

I have rarely heard Catholics speak so contemptuously of the Bible. What is taken out of context in those passages? Is the assertion “to lie with a man as with a woman is an abomination” unclear? And to say moral importance is not attached to any other issue is absurd. Teachings about incest, adultery, etc. remain intact. Teachings about the dietary law were disposed of by the Lord Jesus as part of the New Covenant.

GayCatholic:

In some of my religious education classes in high school and college, I remember teachers saying how many of the laws (like not planting two different crops in the same field) were part of an older system of moral teaching that is no longer applicable to God’s people today.

So you trust your high school teacher’s judgments about the Church but not the Magisterium’s? The LAST place you want to take your faith teachings from is the misinformed, secular, anti-Catholic public education system.

GayCatholic:

The Catholic Church is not perfect. I believe it’s only a matter of time before the Catholic Church wakes up and changes it’s stand on homosexuality and same sex marriage.

“When the Church wakes up”? Is that “faith” in the Church Christ established/

GayCatholic:

Once we become equal under the law, we’ll deal with making same sex marriage an equal sacrament in the Church. It will happen someday. I believe it is God’s will.

Who is going to “deal with” making homosexual “marriage” a sacrament? This is a deposit of the faith and will NEVER be changed because two men or two women CANNOT be spouses.

GayCatholic:

If marriage is such a sacred institution, a sacramental covenant between God, a woman and a man, why is the divorce rate so high? Why are so many couples unfaithful to each other? Why doesn’t the Catholic Church speak out about these things?

If you honestly think the Catholic Church does not speak out against divorce, adultery, etc., you truly need to begin paying attention.

GayCatholic:

The Catholic Church has lost it’s hold on the bedroom. Many Catholics disregard Church teachings about contraception, sex outside of marriage, adulty and divorce. Yet there is no outcry about these issues either.

This paragraph could be a particularly virulent tract IN THE NEW YORK TIMES. A faithful Catholic does not say things like this. That people disregard the teachings of the faith they profess to believe is the problem of those people, NOT THE CHURCH.

GayCatholic:

It’s enough to make me ashamed to be Catholic or even a Christian. And people ask me why don’t I just leave the Catholic Church and join one that is more accepting. Well, my honest answer is this: God has made it clear to me that He wants me to stay in the Catholic Church, to speak out and to help correct what is wrong, and I say to Him “Thy will be done…”

Do you profess that the Lord has given you direct revelation that YOU need to change the perceived “wrong against homosexuals” in the Church? This I do not believe. There is nothing natural and normal about homosexual acts. There is nothing natural and normal about homosexuals having to wear diapers because of fecal incontinence from having submitted to so many acts of anal intercourse. I pray for every person with this disordered affection, because it IS a DISORDER. Please, speak with a priest you trust, because your post reveals a person deeply out of touch with the Church’s teaching. I pray for you.

 

[SteveG]

kamz:

gay catholic: you wrote: God is love and love is never wrong?

What gay catholic really means is that he thinks LOVE is God, not God is love. And since he believes he is in love (and he may be in some form), then that must be OK, since LOVE is God and must be worshipped.

Gay catholic, you have reversed the meaning of these words. God is love, but not everything we think is love is. Sometimes it’s lust, sometimes its ‘puppy’ love, or infatuation, etc. Indeed, there are many kinds of love. Brotherly love, motherly love, the love of friends, marital love, etc… Regardless of what you think, the gay love you might feel is by definition not the SAME as the love between a man and a woman. Not all love grants one the right to be married. If ‘love’ is the litmus test, then fathers and daughters should be allowed to mary. They love each other after all.

Further, even if you were correct and homosexuality was genetic (which is VERY debatable), would this be an excuse to consider it moral? As a man, I have a high libido by nature and sometimes feel attracted to other women. Should we say that adultry is no longer immoral so that I can indulge my inborn desire to ‘spread my seed’? Of course not. Alchoholics are suppossedly genetically pre-disposed to that affliction. Well then, since they are born that way, we shouldn’t encourage them not to drink, right? According to your logic, that is so? You argue that if a behavior is genetic, it should be ‘allowed’. In any other case, you know this is nonsense, but wouldn’t admit it for the behavior your engaged in.

 

[mrS4ntA]

GayCatholic:

I NEVER CLAIMED GOD WAS WRONG. I SAID THE CHURCH IS WRONG ON THIS ISSUE. LIKE IT HAS BEEN WRONG ON MANY OTHER ISSUES AND LATER CHANGED IT’S POSITION. DON’T PRAY FOR ME, PRAY FOR THE CHURCH AND IT’S LEADERS. THEY ARE THE ONES IN NEED OF PRAYERS.

Homosexual act (notice the emphasise before you yell again ) is not a “mere” issue, those representing the Church maybe has made it too difficult for poor Galileo, but it wasn’t over a Church infallible teaching, and certainly your claim that “[the Church] changed [her] position” on a number of occasion is simply not true. If this “position” we speak of is her defined doctrines, which are infallible. Never has the Church changed her position on her teachings and doctrines. If this position we speak of is simply political and secular, like the Galileo case, then yes. The Pope has even apologised for many unprofitable things Church leaders have done in the past. The wrongness of homosexual act, though, has already been infallibly defined. It is a doctrine, not a position, and no one – repeat: no one, even the Pope – can lift the doctrine. I’m sorry to say that, but it can’t be helped.

And yes, we should reach out lovingly to homosexuals, but never are we to embrace the act – the sin itself, for God loves sinners, but He hates sins.

 

[ChrisR246]

Shibboleth:

Genesis 19:5 uses the word “yada” which literally translated means “to know, or to be familiar with”… people claim that this means they wanted to have intercourse with the strangers, this might be the case - it is used as such a few times in the OT.

Even if they are referring to “intercourse” the story is more about gang rape then anything.

I’m not sure what you are getting at. Lot offered his virgin daughters to the mob but they insisted on the male strangers.

Shibboleth:

If you want “to know” to mean intercourse fine but be careful.

Matt 1:25
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife; and **knew her not ** till she had brought forth her first-born son and he called His name Jesus

This passage seems to support the idea that “know” is a euphemism for sexual relations. Otherwise, if it means “to have knowledge of” then the passage means he took a wife but didn’t know it until she bore a son.

(BTW, taking it euphemistiaclly, the passage simply highlights the Virgin birth. It say nothing about whether or not there were marital relations after the birth of Jesus.

 

[retina_md]

GayCatholic, you have made up your mind about what you believe is the truth. You have attempted to create God in your image which is an uncorrect proposition of the faith. You have taken every position to support your argument rather than clearing your head and reapproaching the issue. Because you are unwilling to change, you attempt to justify your position rather than accept the Church’s teaching. Your attempt to justify your desire based on other’s sins leads you no closer to the truth.

This problem is closer to me than many others, and I am truely sorry for you. You will never be at rest with this issue until you sincerely seek the truth of what it means to be created “male and female” and to understand the role of sexuality in God’s plan for salvation.

 

[NWUArmyROTC]

GayCatholic,

I don’t mean to be harsh, if my words are very offensive, I am sorry for that.

God has given you a cross to bear. Let us hypothesize that you did not choose to be gay. God and the Church clearly state that homosexual sexual activity is wrong (just as premarital sex is and divorce – the guys in the photo you posted, might want to consider that). Which means you have a distinct cross to bear. It is sinful for you to physically act out your feelings, which is incredibly difficult, but no different than the feelings a young Catholic couple might have before marriage, but the situation is the same, no sex before marriage.

Which brings us to gay-marriage. God Created Them Male and Female, Male and Female He created them. Jesus echoes that in the Gospels. Paul indentifies the unnaturalness of same-sex relationships.

You have a cross to bear, bear it with courage and faith. The Church will not change. Something that is evil cannot become good, though something that is allowed may become evil (i.e. Slavery, once permissible, was eventually rightly condemened, Abortion is evil and can never be good).

You feel that your relationship is ok in your experience and should not be condemened. What about a priest who feels in his experience it is ok to sleep with altar boys, is that still wrong? Our experience and feeling of the acceptableness of a situation, has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong, it has already been declared right or wrong by God.

 

[NWUArmyROTC]

GayCatholic,

When the Pope admits the wrongs of the past, it is for actions, not Doctrine/Dogma. The Crusades aren’t Doctrine/Dogma, but actions that at times were slightly excessive. Burning of Heretics isn’t Dogma. It seems you want the faith to conform to your worldview. Faith will not conform, the Church will be boldly countercultural, declaring wrongs, wrongs, and goods, goods, no matter what society has to say.

 

[Shibboleth]

ChrisR246:

I’m not sure what you are getting at. Lot offered his virgin daughters to the mob but they insisted on the male strangers.

Sodom is mentioned many more times in the Bible; and none of those times is homosexuality listed as the sin of Sodom. Deuteronomy 23:17 and I Kings 14:24 translate “temple prostitute” to “sodomite.” Even this is based on the assumption that the sins of Sodom were sexual in nature at all. “Yada” is the Hebrew word for “to know.” It is found more than 900 times in the Old Testament to mean literally “to know or be familiar with, to become acquainted.” Sodom was a tiny oasis in a vast wilderness near the Dead Sea. The only strangers (strange flesh) that they would encounter were enemy tribes wanting their valuable set-up and wanderers (dependent on their hospitality for survival- to deny it was to send them to death). For a clear explanation of the sin of Sodom see Deuteronomy 29:22-28 and 32:32; Ezekiel 16:49-50; Jeremiah 49:18 and 50:41; Isaiah 13:19-22; Matthew 10:14-15 and Wisdom 19:13-14.The classical orthodox understanding of this verse has nothing to do with homosexuality. If these men were homosexuals, why did Lot offer his daughters? The same with Judges 19:1-30. Anyway, if they came for the same reasons you are assuming, would it have been any better if they came for a woman. Even the gay-condemning understanding of this passage is not about same-sex love, it is about gang rape. Lot understood the sacredness of a guest. That is why he offered his daughters.

ChrisR246:

This passage seems to support the idea that “know” is a euphemism for sexual relations. Otherwise, if it means “to have knowledge of” then the passage means he took a wife but didn’t know it until she bore a son.

(BTW, taking it euphemistiaclly, the passage simply highlights the Virgin birth. It say nothing about whether or not there were marital relations after the birth of Jesus.

I definitely need to study more about the positions of Catholicism.
Maybe I am confused but I thought that Catholics held that Mary never engaged in sexual relations with Joseph.

 

[Scanner]

Gay Catholic,

Just curious - why aren’t you satisfied with “civil unions” (which the gov’t seems to be leaning this way lately) and have to have the marriage word and the attachment of the sacrament of matrimony towards your union? Why do you feel it necessary for the Catholic Church to give you their blessing?

Is it because you “put your time in” with Mass, make donations, and so forth?

Not trying to bait you.

I am just curious to the sense of entitlement you feel.

 

[system]

God created marriage as a union between one man and one woman–God gave no other configurations for marriage.

People are free to think whatever they want, yet to not recognize that God instititued only one configuration for marriage is to deny revelation.

As for the civil side of things, our culture consistently codifies morality…it is an absolute must in order to prevent chaos in society. The question always comes down to “who’s” morality are we going to codify?

 

[ktm]

This whole thread has gotten totally out of hand in a matter of a few posts. Folks, please keep this to a civilized level, both in how you interact with each other and in what language you choose. There is too much explicit talk of rather disgusting behaviors. We are instructed to keep this to a level that would be appropriate for a teenage audience.