"The Catholic Church is wrong"

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I am curious, what do you think is the root cause of virulent anti catholicism?
I have non catholic friends that I would say are just not meant to be catholics yet. But, not virulent anti-catholics really. And no Jack Chick types really.
I have more friends outside of that circle I recently met, that are christian in the Lutheran church however. The catholics in my parish, are not very friendly even though I am as involved as I can be under the circumstances. At the Lutheran Church I went to (now 5 times) they are very friendly and caring. I even had my child go to their christmas sale fundraiser as a helper with one friend she made there. I donated 22 dozen cookies.
Some are definitely like that, but I have to say that I have found some of the most brilliant minds in the world among evangelical theologians and philosophers. Guys like Francis Schaefer, RC Sproul, FF Bruce, Norman Geisler, D James Kennedy, Werner Vaun Braun, Lambert Dolphin…on and on. Guys that can argue the Greek and Hebrew for days if you so desire! They may just see the scriptures differently, but they know them and they know how to teach them. It is sad though when people stop talking!
 
Some are definitely like that…
I sometimes don’t get what people mean by others in the church being freindly, or unfriendly. I go to church to pray, take part in Adoration, and attend Mass. My entire focus is on God. I get on well with the music group and play oboe with them now. I could say that some of those in the group weren’t too friendly, and one girl there I know we will enver be best buddies. But we smile, laugh, talk, share, get along, play, worship, then go our own way home. I’m friendly to everyone who interacts with me. But my focus for being in Church is God and prayer. I’m generally oblivious as to whether someone is being friendly or not to me. I’m not in a bar. 🤷
 
Thank you JonNC.

I missed you guys too and I look forward to having more discussion with you and others here in the future…And just so yah know, although I did have a close brush with the law (Mod)… my recent absence, was of my own choosing… I just needed a break.

Peace
I have just come across this thread and noticed something. You said you needed a break.

Well, I believe that we all need a break because being on these threads can result in “information overload”. We need to remove ourselves sometimes and reflect. We learn an awful lot here and without a break we will NOT LEARN. One thought will interrupt another and so on.

Cheers
Cinette
 
I sometimes don’t get what people mean by others in the church being freindly, or unfriendly. I go to church to pray, take part in Adoration, and attend Mass. My entire focus is on God. I get on well with the music group and play oboe with them now. I could say that some of those in the group weren’t too friendly, and one girl there I know we will enver be best buddies. But we smile, laugh, talk, share, get along, play, worship, then go our own way home. I’m friendly to everyone who interacts with me. But my focus for being in Church is God and prayer. I’m generally oblivious as to whether someone is being friendly or not to me. I’m not in a bar. 🤷
Great statement.
 
I am curious, what do you think is the root cause of virulent anti catholicism?
I have non catholic friends that I would say are just not meant to be catholics yet. But, not virulent anti-catholics really. And no Jack Chick types really.
I have more friends outside of that circle I recently met, that are christian in the Lutheran church however. The catholics in my parish, are not very friendly even though I am as involved as I can be under the circumstances. At the Lutheran Church I went to (now 5 times) they are very friendly and caring. I even had my child go to their christmas sale fundraiser as a helper with one friend she made there. I donated 22 dozen cookies.
You make a very good point. I think that Catholics really have a lot to learn from our separated brethren when it comes to fellowship. We seem to have invested the bulk of our resources in the corporate works of mercy to the degree where we have failed to minister to those next to us in the pew. Some Catholic parishes are so “cold”. It is interesting to see how many respond to the introduction when we are asked to greet those near us. Some will not make eye contact, or won’t say their name.
I sent my child to catholic school. I understand the Mass is not a social event.
I am involved in all the fundraisers, and volunteer for just about everything. They still are cold to me.🤷
Not so with the Lutherans.
It may be that you have been given an apostolate to bring this warmth into the community. As St. Christopher said, it is better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness. Perhaps you have been given a revelation and insight to see what others do not, as you have also clarity about the remedy.

Jesus said, if you love those that love you, what credit is that to you? This implies that being loving, warm, and welcoming to the “cold” will be “credit” to you. May God bless your ministry! 👍
 
wow. this is truly informative. if you don’t mind can you share your source? thx.
**Hi emarc, 👋

Actually all it tells us is that even Baptist don’t understand Baptist! I complied that information from various sources. I have “files” I made that I add to, and subtract from, as I find interesting facts. I actually need to do a better job of sourcing things. But mostly, I research questions asked and have information available so when someone like SIA attackes our church I can offer information that hopefully clears away the smoke screen that have often been employed. Some of the sources I do have listed for that data is:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baptist_sub-denominations

This will amaze you! I would estimate that it shows almost a thousand baptist denominations, not mentioning all their various associations, conferences, conventions, fellowships, groups, unions, and subdenominations. Other information came from christianity.about.com/od/baptistdenomination/p/baptistprofile.htm and religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/baptists.htm and deusvitae.com/faith/denominations/baptism.html and baptistboard.com/archive/index.php/t-7925.html and probably a half dozen more. Some times one of the sites leads me to another where I obtain additional information. Not writing a paper, I get sloppy in my sourcing! Anyway, I hope that helps!

Have you noticed that “They” ignore me when I reply? They go after someone else with another point!

I thought most protestants weren’t allowed to dance! These guys sure do! 😃

God Bless**
 
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them,** I never knew you**: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Jhn 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. **
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and
know my [sheep], and am known of mine. **
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

well whats a relationship then?

here is what paul said about his religion…

Phl 3:5 **Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; ** (Wow cant get more religious then that)

Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, **not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: **

Paul was the hebrew of hebrews the most religious man he killed for his religion.(count them all dung)
I am busy reading thru the thread while you are all asleep as I am in a different time zone.

Fisher you obviously take your Faith seriously and know your Bible. Something I would like to add - you should also quote the Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy which emanate from Matt 25:31-45. I believe this is the duty of EVERY Christian.

God love you
Cinette:love: :love: :love: :love:
 
You make a very good point. I think that Catholics really have a lot to learn from our separated brethren when it comes to fellowship. We seem to have invested the bulk of our resources in the corporate works of mercy to the degree where we have failed to minister to those next to us in the pew. Some Catholic parishes are so “cold”. It is interesting to see how many respond to the introduction when we are asked to greet those near us. Some will not make eye contact, or won’t say their name.

It may be that you have been given an apostolate to bring this warmth into the community. As St. Christopher said, it is better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness. Perhaps you have been given a revelation and insight to see what others do not, as you have also clarity about the remedy.

Jesus said, if you love those that love you, what credit is that to you? This implies that being loving, warm, and welcoming to the “cold” will be “credit” to you. May God bless your ministry! 👍
**

Hi guan, 👋
Remember guan, Anyone who makes an absolute statement is absolutely wrong every time.😃
I have never found Catholics to be different than Protestants. My current parish has many very active groups (6,000 members - 5 Masses on Sunday. Three Priests. Each Mass has its own music ministry, liturgical teams and parishioners :D. I normally attend any one I wish. I am always welcomed and I do not maintain a “high” parish profile, although I am extremely active in state and diocesan groups, Knights of Columbus, ACTS, Pro-life, Seminary support, Habitat for Humanity activities etc. Many people only know me by my first name, if at all.

“You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”- Matthew 5:14,16

You give good advise! 👍
**
 
I sometimes don’t get what people mean by others in the church being freindly, or unfriendly. I go to church to pray, take part in Adoration, and attend Mass. My entire focus is on God. I get on well with the music group and play oboe with them now. I could say that some of those in the group weren’t too friendly, and one girl there I know we will enver be best buddies. But we smile, laugh, talk, share, get along, play, worship, then go our own way home. I’m friendly to everyone who interacts with me. But my focus for being in Church is God and prayer. I’m generally oblivious as to whether someone is being friendly or not to me. I’m not in a bar. 🤷

Very wise words from someone that denyed even being baptised! freesmileys.org/smileys/basic/arms.gif

Some times people complain about the Priest, taking too long, an accent, not long enough, distracting mannerisms, etc. I always say: “I didn’t notice, I came here to meet and eat My lord and Savior, Jesus and nothing else matters. How could it?” I sometimes get some strange looks and could care less! Like you said, I’m not in a bar.

God Bless!
 
Why do Catholics judge me?
Well, you seem to be gloating in your victimization, which is why I don’t like your signature line.

1 Peter 2:20-21
“…if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps.”

Did Jesus draw attention to himself through the slander of His enemies? How does this glorify Him?
Who gives them the right to judge?
Pride, exploited by the Evil One.
I run into Catholics all the time who tell me I am going to hell, or that I am not a “whole” or “pure” Christian.
Being Catholic does not make one necessarily holy and righteous. This kind of pride and judgementalism is what has divided Christianity from the beginning. Dont’ you think the Judiazers thought that the Gentiles who refused circumcision thought they were practicing a counterfeit religion?
Now, what’s up with that? :rolleyes:
You seem to have focused on the wrong that has been done to you, instead of any good that can be found.

Phil 4:8-9

8 Finally, beloved, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 Keep on doing the things that you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, and the God of peace will be with you."

Can you not find something worthy of praise to put in your signature?
 
Christ gave us the bible? Is Christ part of the God head well then He did. The catholic church burned the bible and the people that tried to give us a bible in the English language this is history.
You seem to have been given a lot of misinformation about the history of the Bible. The Catholic Church wrote, protected, canonized and promulgated the Bible. When the printing press was invented, one of the first books printed on it (by the Catholic inventor) was the Bible.

the Church burned heretical bibles in an attempt to prevent the sundering of the Church. As we can see, this effort was unsuccessful. When the Scripture was separated from the Sacred Tradition that Produced it, nothing but division has occurred.
Code:
I do not Hate Catholics I just do not believe there doctrine.
It is unlikely that you understand it, since you have already shown a great ignorance of the history of the Bible.
Code:
I love all people with Gods love that is in side me. As a Christian, God commands me to tell people about His Son finished work on that hill on Golgotha, now the choice is yours.
In Him
You mean, I now have a choice to join you in rebellion against the authority appointed by Jesus? I suppose you are right, God created all His beings with the freedom to rebel. First it was Lucifer and a third of the angels. Then it was Adam and Eve, Jannes and Jambres, etc. etc.
 
Why should we expect Protestants to know the Truth of Catholicism when we allow Catholics not to know the faith or Church History?

If we could get the #*@# Catholics to learn the faith, the Protestants would have more access to knowledgable Catholics, giving us more knowledgeable Protestants. We should start with Politicians who attend Catholic Churches at least once every two years, at election time and work our way up.
Amen! Let us see to the log in our own eye! 👍
 
The doing comes after the believing not doing then the believing that’s what James is talking about. Mat 7 21-23 they did all good things he said I never knew you.The house must be built on the rock If you believe that the rock is a religious organization then God will say to you at the judgement seat well done. If your wrong and the rock is** Jesus then your in a lot of trouble.
The question I would ask my self is what and who am I trusting in? Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
We can go down rabbit trails all day but what it all comes down to is where are you going to
spend eternity**?

In Him
I agree that any “doing” that precedes faith is of no avail. However, we can see from the experience of Cornelius that acting in faith, even when that faith is uninformed or incomplete, still can ascend as a memorial before God. A person who acts on what he has, however minimal, will be advanced by grace.
 
God is clear who the “rock” is!

1 Samuel 2
2:2
"No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, **Nor is there any rock like our God. **

2 Samuel 22
22:2
And he said: F49 "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;

2 Samuel 22
22:32
"For who is God, except the Lord? **And who is a rock, except our God? **

Psalms 18
18:2
**The Lord is my rock **and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my strength, in whom I will trust; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalms 18
18:31
For who is God, except the Lord? **And who is a rock, except our God? **

Psalms 92
92:15
To declare that the Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

It is not that we hate Catholics nor Catholicism but you guys are wrong in a lot of areas.
Catholics recognize that the Rock is Christ. However, we also recognize that Christ did not do anything without meaning. When He renamed Simon to Peter (Rock) and said that He would build His Church on this Rock, we understand that Jesus at that moment, because of the revelation given Simon by God, grafted Peter into Himself. He became part of the foundation upon which the Church is built. Grafting the Apostles and Prophets into His “rockness” does not in any way take away from His identity as the cornerstone.
 
He was not one of the 12 apostles. He called himself the apostle to the gentiles. Its that simple. You can take it any way you wish from there. I prefer not to speculate.
It is true that he was not one of the 12, but he was not “self-proclaimed”. Jesus chose, annointed, and trained him for this ministry.
 
I do not care what your church officially declares, when someone calls me a in-pure christian, then that person has judged, and god said not too. I do not know how the catholic church can be just.
If this is true,then you are in error. What the Church teaches is without error because the HS prevents the Church from error. However. individuals who are not acting in union with the Teachings of Jesus have no such protection. Such individuals can, and do, sin against God, and fellow men. For that reason, it is very important that you care what the Church officially declares. Otherwise, it is like judging the teaching of Jesus by those who did not follow it. Would you say that, since Judas betrayed Christ, what Jesus taught is not just?
l, I doubt I’ll ever have this fullness as I’ve been told of countless times. I personally would rather worship on my own away from a church, and let god decide whether or not I am going to hell on his own, and not have to ask anyone else on his behalf (Mary, Saints).
Well, pride is part of our human nature. If we are not healed from it in this life, we will be in the next.
😉
 
Can you tell me when Jesus gave him the title apostle?
Paul was not even an eyewitness of Jesus’ ministry. He did have a vision that blinded him though. And, yes it was Jesus speaking to him. But, Jesus never gave him the title apostle. Paul did that all on his own.
This amazes me. I don’t see where Jesus gave anyone the title of “apostle”. The writers state that He referred to them that way, but we dont’ find this in His words.

Acts 9:15-17
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is an instrument whom I have chosen to bring my name before Gentiles and kings and before the people of Israel; 16 I myself will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

‘apostle’ means “one sent forth”. If Jesus is not saying here that He intends to send Paul forth I can’t think of anything more specific. 🤷

Paul opened all his letters wth the salutation “called to be an Apostle”. I don’t think these would have been permitted in the canon of scripture if the Church did not affirm the truth of what was written.
 
If this is true,then you are in error. What the Church teaches is without error because the HS prevents the Church from error. However. individuals who are not acting in union with the Teachings of Jesus have no such protection. Such individuals can, and do, sin against God, and fellow men. For that reason, it is very important that you care what the Church officially declares. Otherwise, it is like judging the teaching of Jesus by those who did not follow it. Would you say that, since Judas betrayed Christ, what Jesus taught is not just?

Well, pride is part of our human nature. If we are not healed from it in this life, we will be in the next.
😉
**
Hi Guan,👋

I don’t understand where people get the idea that we can not “judge” people’s actions. The Bible tells us that we “must judge”

“JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED” is often quoted by THE HYPOCRITES to those who PUBLICLY OPPOSE SIN.

You seem to fall right into that error. I know you are too knowledgeable for that. Whats up?

Look at the passage in its context:
MATTHEW 7:1-5:
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

Clearly, it is hypocritical judgment that this Scripture condemns. Now, look at verse 6, and 13-15. Do you see that Christ actually instructs them to make judgments? A hypocritical judgment is judging something for something of which you are also guilty - LIKE TELLING ME NOT TO JUDGE WHEN YOU ARE JUDGING ME! This passage means the opposite of what hypocrites often interpret it to mean! Jesus’ point is for hypocrites to pluck the beam of sin out of their own eye so that they can see clearly to cast the mote out of their neighbor’s eye.

So if I was a protestant of lets say the Luthern persuasion and I called someone a heretic because they were Baptist It would apply. Now as a catholic, it doesn’t apply! Just like people say we are arrogant these same people could call Jesus arrogant. He also was telling the truth!

Step up to the plate. Do not agree with lies to make people have a warm feeling. if they don’t change their path I think they will encounter a “warm” feeling for eternity!

freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce002.gif

Am I judging? Darn right! As I should do, as a Catholic attempting to help others not be damned! Or so I believe! 👍 !

Let’s look at some other Scriptures…
JOHN 7:14: “Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”
LUKE 12:57: “Yea, and why not even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?”
PSALM 37:30: “The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.”
PROVERBS 31:9: “Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.”
LUKE 17:3: “Take heed… If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.”
LEVITICUS 19:15-17: “Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor. Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbor: I am the Lord. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him.”
EZEKIEL 22:2 & 23:36: “Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? Yea, thou shalt show her all her abominations… The Lord said moreover unto me, Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? Yea, declare unto them their abominations.”
ISAIAH 58:1: “Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.”
MATTHEW 3:2,7: John the Baptist preaching, “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?”
MATTHEW 23: Jesus publicly rebuked the hypocrites, “Woe unto you… hypocrites!..ye blind guides…fools…full of extortion and excess…whited sepulchres…full of hypocrisy and iniquity…Woe unto you…Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”**
 
**
Hi Guan,👋

I don’t understand where people get the idea that we can not “judge” people’s actions. The Bible tells us that we “must judge”

“JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED” is often quoted by THE HYPOCRITES to those who PUBLICLY OPPOSE SIN.

You seem to fall right into that error. I know you are too knowledgeable for that. Whats up?**

I am in agreement that it is necessary for us to judge right and wrong conduct. This is true for ourselves, and for our society. I was listening to a peice on Immaculate Heart Radio last night about “legislating morality” that was addressing this very issue. What we cannot do, is judge the heart of others, only God can do that.

Look at the passage in its context:
MATTHEW 7:1-5:
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

Realcatholicgk;4510553 said:
** Clearly, it is hypocritical judgment **
that this Scripture condemns. Now, look at verse 6, and 13-15. Do you see that Christ actually instructs them to make judgments? A hypocritical judgment is judging something for something of which you are also guilty - LIKE TELLING ME NOT TO JUDGE WHEN YOU ARE JUDGING ME! This passage means the opposite of what hypocrites often interpret it to mean! Jesus’ point is for hypocrites to pluck the beam of sin out of their own eye so that they can see clearly to cast the mote out of their neighbor’s eye.

I agree. He is clearly saying that it is appropriate to extract the brother’s mote. One must be able to see clearly in order to do this.
** So if I was a protestant of lets say the Luthern persuasion and I called someone a heretic because they were Baptist It would apply.**
No, I think not.
** Now as a catholic, it doesn’t apply! Just like people say we are arrogant these same people could call Jesus arrogant. He also was telling the truth! **
It is wrong for you to refer to our separated brethren in this manner.
** Step up to the plate. Do not agree with lies to make people have a warm feeling. if they don’t change their path I think they will encounter a “warm” feeling for eternity! **
I do not find that the terminology applies, and I find the manner in which you approach our separated brethren abrasive and unproductive. It seems to me that several people here have found themselves insulted by your approach. I know you excuse this by what you say above, that they were “insulted” by Jesus also. But the Apostles instructs us to make our apologetic with gentleness and humility.
** Am I judging? Darn right! As I should do, as a Catholic attempting to help others not be damned! Or so I believe! 👍 !
**
I know you believe that, and I am sure your heart is in the rigtht place. It is your delivery I find offensive.
** Let’s look at some other Scriptures…

MATTHEW 23: Jesus publicly rebuked the hypocrites, “Woe unto you… hypocrites!..ye blind guides…fools…full of extortion and excess…whited sepulchres…full of hypocrisy and iniquity…Woe unto you…Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” **
The difference between our separated brethren an those that Jesus rebuked is that they claimed to know an believe. I realize that many Protestants claim to know Catholic teaching, but in fact, they do not. They have been misled. This is not the same as the sin of heresy.

The fact that they have embraced heretical beliefs is, in most cases, no fault of their own.
 
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