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fbl9
Guest
thanks for bringing that one up Martin,thanks Guanophore…
there is one thing that really bugs me is when people refer to St.Paul as Paul…especially the ones who say they are a saint.
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there is one thing that really bugs me is when people refer to St.Paul as Paul…especially the ones who say they are a saint.
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Martin777
Guest
You would do well to re-read what I quoted of God’s word and take more than a sniff sniff. Inhale deeply or ignore at your own peril. Here is what the one who had to rebuke Peter (Galatians 2) said about your error:
(From Galatians 1) "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we **or an angel from heaven **should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
And what was it that these worthy of condemnation were teaching? Take a sniff: "We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
“If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
And here is the kicker. I pray that someone out there will see the light as they read God’s precious word: “1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?”
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Church_Militant
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NotWorthy
Guest
I follow the same Gospel that’s been preached for 2000 years. I’m not sure you can honestly say that, my brother. Though I deeply admire your love for Christ, I mourn your ignorance of the Bride of Christ, the Church… The Catholic Church.
If I was correct in saying that you were preaching “Once Saved, Always Saved”, then I coil away from that heresy, for it is truly a foul and disgusting odor indeed, that has given poor sinners a false sense of eternal security for 400 or so years (truly a doctrine of man).
But if I was totally off-base in thinking you were not professing OSAS, then I’m truly sorry for misjudging your words.
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Martin777
Guest
So was that a ‘no’? You don’t believe a regenerated person is a saint?not in one little bit…why even demons believe in God
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Martin777
Guest
You know, the Bible will flat mess up your theology! You don’t understand what legalism is. Nor do you understand why the NT spends so much time detailing how wonderful grace is. It is scandalously unconditional. But you have to be born again first. And that may really be where you stumble. Most Catholics I have ever talked to don’t know what Jesus meant. See, you have to be Once Saved before you are even qualified to debate Always Saved.
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tqualey
Guest
Seeing Christ in others takes faith - not ignorance or dumb luck or some other element. For those expecting to see the Christ we have pictured in the Gospels - there is a real disappointment and confusion. He is really looking like everyone else. The “sheep” and “goats” are obviously confused… “When did we see You…”? My understanding is that the ‘goats’ were simply too busy with themselves to care for anyone other then their selfish selves (and Hell is an eternal preoccupation with a finite self refusing infinite good … oh, and don’t forget the heat!) The ‘sheep’ had to be aware that they were doing good for others - and in doing so, were building up the Body of Christ, His Chruch, through these works. It was not an accident.
I guess I am not catching this idea either. In the parable of Lazarus, the begger, and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31) both men die and both are judged immediately - there was no waiting around to gather a group and judge them collectively. Lazarus immediately enjoyed being in the “,bosom of Abraham…” the eternal enjoyment of God - and the rich man (“Dives”) goes “…and is buried…” but, there is no ‘rest in peace’ for this individual for he is “… tormented in this flame”. I think this is a good scriptural basis of the Particular or Individual Judgment, and Matthew’s account is a good scriptural basis for the General Judgment that will happen at the end of the world. There is no appeal (in the sense of reversing the initial judgment)… the judgment rendered at the Partucular Judgment will be announced for all to know at the General Judgment.
Both Matthew and Luke are telling us in these parables that merely having faith is not enough. James 2:19 tells us that even the Devils believe in God (faith?) and tremble, Matthew 8:29 tells how the expelled demons acknowledged Christ as God (faith?) but, it did them no good. And, you just have to ask yourself, “Why?” And, while pondering the answer to that - consider if there is not a lesson here for us as well.
Consider this: The Devil is totally incapable of changing his mind. He can’t wake up one morning (these spirits do not sleep…but, bear with this analogy) like we sometimes do, shake our heads and say something like, *“Oh, did I ever make a mistake on this one. I told the Boss I wanted to take over His Job - and He fired me! I will apologize and get back to work in the Company - because being fired down here is really being on fire and it hurts!” *It isn’t going to happen. The Devil has actual knowledge and experience of God - and rejected Him! It isn’t so much the place (not to minimize it, though), but this foolish Devil and his followers are in one hell of a state of mind.
We are totally capable of changing our minds - until we die. Then like the Devil (or the Good Angels for that matter) our wills are set in the direction we chose.
Best wishes,
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NotWorthy
Guest
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. Baptism, my brother.
I was baptized 45 years ago as an infant. How much more unconditional can that be? So, yes, I’ve been saved, I’ve been working on my salvation, and I will continue to work on my salvation, for it is a process, not an event.
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guanophore
Guest
“It” being what? Did you not realize that the Catholic Church is the only Church that is founded upon the person of Christ? All the Protestant denominations that spring from the Reformation are founded upon another man, or upon the “scriptures” themselves, which actually means, some person or group of persons understanding of the Scriptures. On the other hand, the Catholic faith was delivered whole and entire to the disciples prior to a word of the NT ever being written. Persons like yourself complain about how “unscriptural” the Catholic Church is, as if you expect it to be based upon Scripture, or upon your understanding of it.
This is why we are not concerned about whether or not you can find our doctrines in the scripture. They did not stop being held and taught by the Church when some of them were written. What is written in the NT reflects the one Divine Deposit of Faith that was given to the Church. It is not the Source of it, Jesus is the Source.
For some reason you seem to think that those communities were not Catholic, or that the faith Paul embraced was not Catholic. On the contrary, they were all Catholic. Luke was one of the primary disciples of Paul, and Luke is the first to refer to the Church in this way. Where do you think he got this notion?
Paul refers to the catholicity of the Church, though he may not use that term in his apologetics.
I answered this before, but I understand that you are not seeing all the messages so I will answer it again. The reason Paul opens all his letters “to the saints” is because they are written to believers. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that everyone who is baptized into Christ is “made holy” by the washing of the water and the word in the HS.
Not all of those thus made holy continue in holiness, but some fall from grace. However, those that continue in holiness, and finish the race in a state of grace (sanctity) are revealed to the Church by God has having reached their heavenly reward. These persons are held up as role models for us, so that we can be encouraged to imitate their faith.
I think you are criticizing the manner in which the Catholic Church does evangelism. I think you are also revealing your prejudice by saying “Rome”. For your information, this type of reference is considered disrespectful and insulting. Now that you have been informed about this, I will assume that your continued use of it is purposeful. Please be aware that such pejorative language is also a violation of the forum rules.
There are 23 Rites in the Catholic Church, all in union with the bishop of Rome, the visible sign of unity of the Catholic faith on earth. The Latin of “Roman” rite is the most commone in Western Europe and the US, so most Protestants think it is the only one.
As far as my vitality and spirituality, it improves daily. As you can see by my post count, I read and post here quite a bit, and have learned a great deal about my faith since coming here. Instead of my faith being a “part” of my life, it is now the center, and everything else revolves around it, as it should be. I used to be a “Sunday” cradle Catholic, but not anymore.
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HankZ
Guest
It’s called The Holy Bible.
You can find them at almost any store that sells books.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Then how do you explain so many denomination using the same bible preaching different things?!?
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, HankZ,
I think twb1621 presented an excellent idea that needs to be followed up on.
I think twb1621 presented an excellent idea that needs to be followed up on.
twb1621;4551296:
Now, picture this: Christ is about to Ascend to Heaven and He is telling His Apostles good-bye (Mark 16:19) and, instead of the actual words He spoke … He said something like this: “You all fend for yourselves! The Holy Spirit is going to come - but, instead of a unity of beleif coming from His Divine Guidance to you My chosen Apostles - He is going to speak to everyone and there will be conflicting doctrine all over the place! Somehow out of this chaos, Christian unity - while not being obvious - will happen!”
Jesus Christ set up a Church (not a physical building - but, a group of 12 men [later reduced to 11 - but re-established under the Divine Direction of the Holy Spirit and the actions of the Apostles under the direction of Peter (you know…the First Pope)as identified in Acts 1:22] It is through this Church, as the main (but not only) channel of God’s Love comes to us. That God would work directly with His Church and keep it from the gates of hell prevailing is a guarantee from God Himself.
The truth of the matter is that this message - this guarantee - (of God protecting His Chruch) was not given to any of the Reformers, but to the Apostles. The Catholic Chruch traces its origin from Christ in a direct line back to the Apostles. After St. John (the last Apostle) died about the year 100 the Chruch did not die but continued on through the ordination of priests and consecration of bishops to this very day.
Just look at the multiplicity of doctrine in the Protestant Chruches. If God is One - how do you think there can be all of this supposedly Divinely Inspired confusion and contradiction?
Best wishes?
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HankZ
Guest
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HankZ
Guest
Actually, it smells like biblical truth. Very well said Martin.
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guanophore
Guest
How did you come to this conclusion, Martin? did you not believe what I told you that the whole NT reflects the Catholic faith? You yourself admit that in it’s pages can be found the Catholic Teaching that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves. Honestly , you puzzle me. You are also making many assumptions about my “Aha” moments, of which there have been many.
Jesus did give His life for the world. However, we know that not everyone is saved. The conditions on salvation that were taught by Jesus and the Apostles are not “another Jesus”, though I can understand why you would think of it that way, since I think you were never really taught what they were given, but a revised “readers digest” version of the gospel.
Who is “dredging up” sins? Most of us don’t need to go dredging, we commit them everyday! Our sins are “ever before us.”
Ps 51:3-9
For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,
and done that which is evil in thy sight,
so that thou art justified in thy sentence
and blameless in thy judgment.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward being;
therefore teach me wisdom in my secret heart.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Fill me with joy and gladness;
let the bones which thou hast broken rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
For some reason you think these things are not Catholic, I am not sure why. Although Jesus has made a place for us in the heavenlies, he is not going to force us to sit with Him. There are some who, having been made partakers of His grace, choose not to continue with him, and inherit in their bodies the due penalty for their sins.
But, this passage does reference one of your other questions/complaints. The Catholic Church recognizes that there are some who have already occupied their heavenly seats, and it is those that are held up for us as role models.
Actually, I think that is supposed to be our job.
Matt 5:28-30
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Do you think that this passage does not apply to Christians?
From our perspective, it is the children of the Reformation that are teaching the “different gospel”, having departed from the Divine Deposit of Fath that was delivered once and for all to the saints. As I have said, this occurred prior to any of it being written, and it did not “vanish” after some of it was committed to writing. It has been preserved and protected by the HS for the last 2000 years intact, just as Jesus intended.
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Martin777
Guest
I know you’re not questioning God’s wisdom in putting that passage in there. Obviously it is a huge issue, since Paul, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, pronounced a curse on them. Here’s who was preaching another gospel THEN–People who were teaching that it is not enough to believe on Jesus. The Judaizers wanted to add works–obeying Old Testament law to be OK and accepted by God. Read it for yourself. Does it sound at all familiar?
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Church_Militant
Guest
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guanophore
Guest
Do you know, I think it is possible that they actually had a crucifix! How else might they have publicly portrayed the crucifixion? Catholics put great stock in this concept, and have never taken Jesus from the Cross through which He bought us.
No, the Bible is a product of Catholic Theology.
I do agree, however, that your understanding is flat messed up. Like I said, though I don’t think it is your fault. I don’t think you were ever “received” the true faith of Jesus, and are only being faithful to the version you were given. I commend you for that.
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Church_Militant
Guest
No, it doesn’t, and only someone ignorant of the Catholic faith would even be tempted to believe such errant doctrine.
I have no problem at all with what the Word of God says. I just disagree with your errant interpretation of it.
There is no Once Saved, Always Saved in the Bible, and even most Christians don’t believe it and condemn it as a an error.
If one cannot lose one’s salvation then explain the fact that in this verse Jesus straight up tells us that He can and will blot people’s names out of the book of life.
Revelation 3:5 He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
In order for it to blotted out of the book of life, it would have to be inscribed there to begin with.
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Church_Militant
Guest
But it is also true my friend that the very same thing can be said about most n-Cs as well. I know that from personal experience.(P.S. M777 gets refuted and he leaves.
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