The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[fbl9]

My question is can you show me this? no offense, but I am not asking for your opinion.

and you claim to know the bible…
the gospel according to St.Matthew12:31"…but blasphemy against the spirt will not be forgiven"verse 32 continues on…

 

[NotWorthy]

Wow. I had forgotten that your statement is the standard answer from Catholics, and it is so contrary to God’s Word.
First, “born of water” was a common term in Jesus’ day for PHYSICAL birth (the watery womb and birth process)

Pardon me while I laugh my head off! This is great!!! Where did you get this from. No, let me guess… Jack Chick? Fr. Riviera? This is good!

SO, here’s what Jesus was saying: Nicodemus (the man He was talking to) thought Jesus meant he had to be born physically again! So Jesus says, No, you have to born physically AND spiritually–that is, of water (physical birth) AND of the Spirit (the New Birth-Born Again) NO WONDER Catholics don’t understand what Jesus meant!

No, I just don’t understand what in the world you mean, for this is truly a doctrine of man! Nobody taught this until the last few hundred years.

 

[HankZ]

and you claim to know the bible…
the gospel according to St.Matthew12:31"…but blasphemy against the spirt will not be forgiven"verse 32 continues on…

Is this a reply to post 213?

 

[WHOWHIE]

Works and faith, do go together as far as, you can “Show” your faith through good works, but you are saved through faith. You can have a saving faith before you do good works, but you cannot have good works before you have a saving faith.

You can have a tree before the fruit, but you cannot have fruit before you have the tree.

Are all hindus and buddhists who have loved their neighbor going to hell then although they have followed Jesus’ commandment to love one another?

 

[HankZ]

Are all hindus and buddhists who have loved their neighbor going to hell then although they have followed Jesus’ commandment to love one another?

You say they follow Jesus commandment? I do not think that a Hindu or Buddhist can follow those religons and still be a follower of Christ. Buddhist believe in no God or they are themselves god, and Hindu’s believe in thousands of different gods. That’s like comparing apples to orange trucks.

 

[firmfoundation]

You know it seems to me from what the Bible teaches, that no one follows the laws of their heart. Didn’t the Bible say that there is no one righteous and that everyone falls short of God’s glory?

OK, you left oub Job. God said he was blameless, too. But He never said anyone was SINLESS! There is a difference, my friend. Don’t you read foundational verses, like “For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”? Jesus is the only one who “knew no sin”, thus He was the only one who could have paid for our sins. That having been said, it would not surprise me at all if one day a pope declared that Mary could have died for our sins and saved the Son of God all the trouble! I’m being fairly serious, there! Anyway…all have sinned. But there are people who lived a life in earnestness and relative goodness that God called blameless.

Now you said something tht is also contrary to bsic theology. That there are people who are saved that have never known about Christianity. Again, let’s look at what God’s word says: "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Do you understand that? Please just read God’s word and accept it. The only way any person can be saved is for a preacher/missionary/Christian…to get in front of them and tell them about the cross. About Jesus and the cross and the resurrection. That’s it! I didn’t say that. God did in that passage. Does that make sense to you?

 

[firmfoundation]

You say they follow Jesus commandment? I do not think that a Hindu or Buddhist can follow those religons and still be a follower of Christ. Buddhist believe in no God or they are themselves god, and Hindu’s believe in thousands of different gods. That’s like comparing apples to orange trucks.

Read my previous post here.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

One cannot pull one verse out of the bible and live by it alone.

John 3:16 (King James Version)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

While Presbyterian I like this sermon, not by faith alone.
febc.edu.sg/assets/treasury_sermons/treasury_of_sermons99_26sep.htm

Be a good stewart of your talents. Being saved is like receiving a talent, if you have that one talent when your master comes back bad news, make the most of you talent (good works) and then you please your master.

 

[firmfoundation]

Pardon me while I laugh my head off! This is great!!! Where did you get this from. No, let me guess… Jack Chick? Fr. Riviera? This is good!

No, I just don’t understand what in the world you mean, for this is truly a doctrine of man! Nobody taught this until the last few hundred years.

Yeh, I noticed that, too. Did you see the quote from MacArthur I posted?

 

[WHOWHIE]

You say they follow Jesus commandment? I do not think that a Hindu or Buddhist can follow those religons and still be a follower of Christ. Buddhist believe in no God or they are themselves god, and Hindu’s believe in thousands of different gods. That’s like comparing apples to orange trucks.

Well, Jesus’s command was to love one another. He said a new commandment I give you love one another as I have loved you. So if they loved others doesn’t it mean they are following what Jesus told us to do? I think it is in Acts that people knew they were Christians because they loved one another. Paul also said, that faith,hope and love will prevails but that the greatest is love.

 

[fbl9]

Hank Z a question for you…
St.Puals 1st letter to the Corinthians…2:13 S.t Paul states that charity is greater then faith…
it is through this charity that we can do good deeds that are pleasing to God.St.Paul else where writes that if he has no love then he is just an empty gong…
what happened to faith being the only way to salvation in these words of St.Paul?
i’ll find out your reply tommorow

 

[NotWorthy]

Yeh, I noticed that, too. Did you see the quote from MacArthur I posted?

No, I think I fell way too far behind on this thread.

Tell me which one (PM me, if you’d like) and I’ll look at it. But in my view, Mr. MacArthur (and his protege Hank?) are waaaay off base. Ezekiel’s words point toward baptism. How are we sure of this? Just look at Peter’s words in Acts 2:38. You have the same formula.
Water… forgiveness of sins… receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[firmfoundation]

Becoming a child of God is not equivalent to being saved. A child can disown his inheritance. I agree that once one is saved, one is always saved. But the Apostles taught that one is not saved until they have finished the race, fought the good fight, and kept the faith. The notion that one is saved at one point in time for all time is a recent innovation - what the Apostles would call “a different gospel”.

“Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained.” Phil 3:12-16

Why does Paul say it is more “mature” not to have an OSAS attitude? Why strain forward, if you have already arrived? Why “press on” if one has already reached the goal?

You are assuming that, because God loves someone, He will not let them walk away from Him. Even a cursory reading of scripture clearly shows that God loves those whom He has chosen, but He still lets them walk away from Him. He will never stop loving us, even as we pass thru the gates of hell.

Mark 10:21-22
21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

I am sure that Jesus was grieving too, since that what happens when someone you love does something self injurious.

You should rethink what you said about being saved. It IS in fact the same as being a child of God. Everyone is a creation of God, but sindce Adam they were born in sin. But everyone “who calls upon the name of the Lord” is saved. Paul said to a bunch of Christians in all degrees of maturity, immaturity, struggling, learning, etc (the church in Ephesus)…“For by grace YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, through faith, and that not of yourselves. it is a gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one can boast.” Notice their salvation is past tense (actually with continuing result–it is a past perfect tense). They were all children of God, and, look out…if you care to honor the first few verses in Ephesisan, they were all saints as well. Time to do some serious, prayerful rethinking???

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, Jesus’s command was to love one another. He said a new commandment I give you love one another as I have loved you. So if they loved others doesn’t it mean they are following what Jesus told us to do? I think it is in Acts that people knew they were Christians because they loved one another. Paul also said, that faith,hope and love will prevails but that the greatest is love.

Whowhie, Jesus was emphatic that you had to come through Him to be saved. Baptism is not in their makeup. I’m not saying they are going to hell. But they don’t conform to the standards that Christians are told to meet to gain salvation.

 

[firmfoundation]

No, I think I fell way too far behind on this thread.

Tell me which one (PM me, if you’d like) and I’ll look at it. But in my view, Mr. MacArthur (and his protege Hank?) are waaaay off base. Ezekiel’s words point toward baptism. How are we sure of this? Just look at Peter’s words in Acts 2:38. You have the same formula.
Water… forgiveness of sins… receive the Holy Spirit.

Here is the quote by MacArthur on being born of water and of the Spirit:
"What does it mean? Very simply, it is a reference to the prophet Ezekiel. And if you remember, Jesus is talking to Nicodemus. Nicodemus is a teacher. He is a teacher of the Jews. In fact, in verse 1, it says, he’s a ruler of the Jews. That would put him in a very preeminent place. In fact, I believe the definite article is there, “the” ruler of the Jews. And those who ruled over the Jews were in religious authority, not political or military authority. And so, how would Nicodemus have understood it? Would he have understood it as Christian baptism? No. Would he have understood it as the physical birth and the water breaking? No. How would he have understood it? Well, the answer goes back to Ezekiel.

There was a very famous passage in Ezekiel that every teacher in Israel knew, because it was the promise of the new covenant. In Ezekiel 36:25, God made this promise to Israel about a new covenant. He said, “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all you idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances or my commandments.”

Now what Ezekiel is writing there is, that the day is going to come when the Lord will wash your heart, he’ll wash your life; he’ll wash your inner man. He’ll put a new heart in you and he’ll put his Spirit in you.

So when Jesus talks to Nicodemus and says, “you must be born of the water and the Spirit,” Nicodemus knows immediately that he is saying, “I am come to bring the fulfillment of the promised new covenant, promised to and through Ezekiel.” Okay? See his is a Jewish Old Testament context, and so it would be actually what the apostle Paul calls, “The washing of regeneration.” The washing, the internal washing of regeneration, and the renewing that comes by the Holy Spirit, that’s Titus 3:5 where you have both the water and the Spirit."

 

[WHOWHIE]

Whowhie, Jesus was emphatic that you had to come through Him to be saved. Baptism is not in their makeup. I’m not saying they are going to hell. But they don’t conform to the standards that Christians are told to meet to gain salvation.

I asked Hank this question because he said to be saved you have to have faith in Jesus and you do not have to do works and that you only do good works because you believe in Jesus. So it means if you do not believe in Jesus you cannot do good works. But Hindus and Buddhists love their neighbor too. If you are not saying that these people are going to hell, doesn’t it mean you are saying they are going to heaven, because there is only heaven or hell.

 

[HankZ]

Hank Z a question for you…
St.Puals 1st letter to the Corinthians…2:13 S.t Paul states that charity is greater then faith…
it is through this charity that we can do good deeds that are pleasing to God.St.Paul else where writes that if he has no love then he is just an empty gong…
what happened to faith being the only way to salvation in these words of St.Paul?
i’ll find out your reply tommorow

Is salvation the context of these verses? What I read is, Faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love.

Jesus said, there is no greater love then this, if you lay down your life for someone.

 

[firmfoundation]

Hank Z a question for you…
St.Puals 1st letter to the Corinthians…2:13 S.t Paul states that charity is greater then faith…
it is through this charity that we can do good deeds that are pleasing to God.St.Paul else where writes that if he has no love then he is just an empty gong…
what happened to faith being the only way to salvation in these words of St.Paul?
i’ll find out your reply tommorow

A pile of $1 million cash is greater than a key. But if I am locked inside a burning building and only a key to the deadbolt will get me out, ii is the key that aves me, and then I can enjoy spending the million. Look out, friend, the building is on fire. God says they that are in the flesh cannot please Him. (Rom 8) You can’t love well enough to get into heaven. You have to be perfect. So God gave you a key, and it is trusting in what Jesus did on the cross for you. THEN His Spirit will come live inside you forever and you will BEGIN to be able to please God, becasue you will no longer be in the flesh, but in the Spirit.

 

[NotWorthy]

I asked Hank this question because he said to be saved you have to have faith in Jesus and you do not have to do works and that you only do good works because you believe in Jesus. So it means if you do not believe in Jesus you cannot do good works. But Hindus and Buddhists love their neighbor too. If you are not saying that these people are going to hell, doesn’t it mean you are saying they are going to heaven, because there is only heaven or hell.

Jesus’ teachings are all based on love of Him.

Because I’m not saying they are going to hell, doesn’t mean I’m saying they are going to heaven. It simply means I don’t know. No one can know for certain that someone else has gone to hell, for Jesus is the Judge of us all. Of course, there are a few people that I’d be willing to bet a ton of money on!!!

Oh, and now that I’m somewhat caught up on this thread and I’m not flying through it (you guys have been busy since last night!!!), I see what you were getting at. Sorry to have spoiled the moment.

 

[firmfoundation]

Jesus’ teachings are all based on love of Him.

Because I’m not saying they are going to hell, doesn’t mean I’m saying they are going to heaven. It simply means I don’t know. No one can know for certain that someone else has gone to hell, for Jesus is the Judge of us all. Of course, there are a few people that I’d be willing to bet a ton of money on!!!

Oh, and now that I’m somewhat caught up on this thread and I’m not flying through it (you guys have been busy since last night!!!), I see what you were getting at. Sorry to have spoiled the moment.

Guys, got news for you. Isaiah says this about what 'ggod works apart from God’s Spirit look like to Him:
“For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”
-Isaiah 64:6