The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[firmfoundation]

In that passage I see a guarantee that we cannot be separated from the love of God by any external force. What I do not see, however, is a guarantee that we are unable to voluntarily give up our faith through our own actions (or lack thereof).

And I think it probably depends on how you read it, but I see it like this–He says life cannot separate us from the love of God, and life is what happens moment by moment that can cause us to stumble and fall. So I see it covering everything about the future. Also that verse somebody else brought up in Romans 5, where it says that Christians rejoice in their tribulations…If tribulation can (and it can) lead me to fail and sin and maybe lose my salvation, then it is absurd to say we rejoice in tribulations. Yet that is what Paul says. So those two passages plus a ton of others make a solid case for the doctrine that God the Father will never disown his children no matter what.

 

[CWBetts]

I want to make sure I understand this. We can “get saved,” be firmly devoted at first, but then grow tired of it, perhaps the “newness” wears off or whatever, and we can fall into a life of sin and debauchery, and it does not effect our relationship with God? Whatever happened to “Go and sin no more”? It is easy to see why OSAS is so attractive. But it just does not coincide with the teachings of Christ.

 

[firmfoundation]

Hank, Hank, Hank, what is it going to tske to make you see that we do not believe we earn our salvation? Did you not read my earlier post? Reread it and perhaps you will understand./QUOT

Here is what I wonder, though–If you have to work to keep it, do you really believe you don’t have to work to GET it?

 

[CWBetts]

I think you are misinterpreting the Catholic doctrine. First and formost, we do not accept that salvation is a “fall on your knees” one time intant transformation. Rather, it is a life-long proces of growth, becoming more like Christ every day. Do we deserve salvation? No. Is there anythng we can do on our own to make us worthy of this great gift? No. We accept God’s grace, and we follow his command to “take up our cross and follow Him” To do otherwise is to not be truly Christian. Technically, I suppose Catholics can say we acceot OSAS, if only because salvation is a process, which will not be complete until we are with God in Heaven. Once the process is complete, we will be with him for eternity, but you see it isnt done yet. We are still a work in process.

 

[Fran65]

Forgive me - or explain further if I haven’t understood correctly; but doesn’t OSAS imply that the person who has ‘once been saved’ can sin however much he likes from that point on and still be saved?

 

[HankZ]

Hold on, I do not accept OSAS. We must continue to follow Christs example, or we will fall out of a state of grace. That isthe reason for the sacrament of confession. Without it we would have no avenue by which we could be cleansed of mortal sin. That i why me must continue to strive to become more Christ-like. To accept OSAS is to remove all responsibility from the believer. Easy believism is not in the scriptures. Remember, the sacrements are instruments of grace. They are not used to “earn” grace, which can never be done, but are the channels by which God normally bestows grace. I apologize if that was unclear.

You were clear. I said we disagreeon this issue of OSAS. I’m not putting you in the OSAS group yet. I’m not that good.

The question about, are good works nessesary to go to heaven. I agree we should do good works, but my point is that if we are not saved, our deeds are rendered worthless, and since we are saved not by works but through faith, works are only a token of our appriciation and love, we as His saved people can have for God. In otherwords, works are nothing worthy to gain, save, or maintain salvation.

To further this discussion, it is said that we are “dead” in our trespasses. We are dead to the things of God. How does a dead person do good deeds? Can a dead person work, repent or do good? No, they are dead. That’s what the bible says, we are dead, but in His mercy, He chooses to bring to life that which was dead. God doesn’t bring to life that which was dead and then let them die, He maintains their salvation because He is worthy and it is Jesus who is faithful to finish the good work He started. To believe that we are saved, only to then keep up our salvation takes the credit away from God.

Remeber Jesus words, I go and prepare a place for you, so that where I go there you may also be. If it were not so, I would have told you. ?(not word for word, but the main idea.) Jesus was telling them that they were His, forever. They could not be given the task of maintaining their own salvation after that. Jesus knew they would never be able to do it on their own. He did all the work for them, then He gave them the Holy Spirit too.

 

[CWBetts]

No, Christ does not “let” us die. He does never leave, nor forsake us. Everytime we commit a mortal sin, WE are forsaking HIM. By your logic, Judas, the betrayer of our Lord, is in Heaven. He was in that group Christ was promising in John 14. Judas obviously failed in maintianing his own salvation, I think we can agree on that. But according to OSAS, it doesn’t matter that he turned over Jesus to the Sanhedrin. He is still saved. Oh, BTW, I used to be in the OSAS camp, then I found Catholicism!! I will be praying for your conversion as well.

 

[HankZ]

Forgive me - or explain further if I haven’t understood correctly; but doesn’t OSAS imply that the person who has ‘once been saved’ can sin however much he likes from that point on and still be saved?

The key word is likes. Once saved, that person hates sin and wants to rid themselves of it.

So to say that now they can have a life of sin is true, however, it is in their new nature, which God has put in them, to desire to not live a life of sin. The opposite is true, the saved person wants to live a rightous life to glorify God.
Take the walking fish for example; It can “walk” on dry land. That is not it’s nature and will not be healthy if it continues to walk on land for too long. After a short time, it desires to be back in the water. A born-again Christian, while having the ability to sin and keep their salvation, desires(and should strive) not to.

 

[NotWorthy]

Wow. I thought we had spent multiple times on that. Rom 8 says “they that are in the flesh CANNOT please”. (He then goes on to say if you have the Holy Spirit in you, you are not in the flesh). Then in Eph he says Christians were CREATED in Christ FOR good works. So…works that come from Christians is what it’s all about. Works prior to the new birth do nothing to get us closer to God, though earthly good can come from them. Does that make sense?

Maybe you need to address this to Hank. Hank is using the argument both ways. One time he say’s that our works are nothing but filthy rags, using this as an excuse that our works have nothing to do with any rewards. And then he uses Scripture to show that our works are pleasing to God.

I’m just challenging him to resolve these differences.

 

[HankZ]

No, Christ does not “let” us die. He does never leave, nor forsake us. Everytime we commit a mortal sin, WE are forsaking HIM. By your logic, Judas, the betrayer of our Lord, is in Heaven. He was in that group Christ was promising in John 14. Judas obviously failed in maintianing his own salvation, I think we can agree on that. But according to OSAS, it doesn’t matter that he turned over Jesus to the Sanhedrin. He is still saved. Oh, BTW, I used to be in the OSAS camp, then I found Catholicism!! I will be praying for your conversion as well.

You don’t believe Judas Ischariot was at one time, “saved, do you?” How could that be? He was stealing from the treasury even before he betrayed Jesus. Reason tells me that Judas was never saved to begin with. He was a greedy thief who sold his friend for money. He refused to accept the truth that Jesus was the Messiah until it was too late.

 

[HankZ]

No, Christ does not “let” us die. He does never leave, nor forsake us. Everytime we commit a mortal sin, WE are forsaking HIM. By your logic, Judas, the betrayer of our Lord, is in Heaven. He was in that group Christ was promising in John 14. Judas obviously failed in maintianing his own salvation, I think we can agree on that. But according to OSAS, it doesn’t matter that he turned over Jesus to the Sanhedrin. He is still saved. Oh, BTW, I used to be in the OSAS camp, then I found Catholicism!! I will be praying for your conversion as well.

Where do you find mortal and non-mortal sins in the bible. All sin separates us from God, so wouldn’t all sin be mortal?

 

[HankZ]

twb1621:
Response to post #293

How ever convincing this post sounds, I believe there are more opinions of man then the opinion of God in it.

Your comment about if works came out of faith. Do you think that most so called Christians are wrong or right in their relationship to God? I get the feeling from this post that you believe that the majority of people who call themselves Christians, are in fact saved. This goes against the bible. Many will say, “Lord, Lord!” Who do you think those people are? Is it the bible thumpering prodesants, who search the scripture to find out God’s truth and give you such a hard time, or could it be the thousands the sit back and believe they are saved because they belong to a this church or that church? Does it matter which church you attend? The road is narrow leading to life and the broad road accepts all kinds of thoughts and beliefs. According to Jesus, it doesn’t matter where you pray from, as long as you pray to the one, true God of Isreal.

 

[HankZ]

What in that addressed any feelings that you insulted me. Instead, look at my reasoning and rebut that.

I’m not mad at you, Hank! I’m just saddened that you’ve been misled so badly. Look bak at my arguments,

Which is it?
Our deeds are nothing but filthy rags?
or
Our deeds are pleasing to Christ?

Which is it, because it can’t be both.

Deeds are filthy rags. Good deeds are pleasing to God. What are you confused about? God reads the heart and can be the only one who knows whether your deed is good or if you are trying to throw Him filthy rags. The only thing that matters is where you stand before Him. Then your works will be looked at as good deeds done to please the Lord out of love or filthy rags done which are detestable in the sight of God.

 

[CWBetts]

Where do you find mortal and non-mortal sins in the bible. All sin separates us from God, so wouldn’t all sin be mortal?

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to Godand he will give him life. These are only for those whose sins is not deadly. There is a such a thing as deadly sis, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

There are three conditions for mortal sin: 1) it must be og grave matter, 2) The offender must have full knowledge, 3) the offender must have deliberite consent (CCC 1857)

Grave matter is defined in the scriptures:

Mark 10:19

You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and mother.’

The requirements of knowledge and consent reveeal the just nature of God. If you do truly not know it is worong, and if you do nat make the concious choice culpability is diminished.

 

[HankZ]

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to Godand he will give him life. These are only for those whose sins is not deadly. There is a such a thing as deadly sis, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

There are three conditions for mortal sin: 1) it must be og grave matter, 2) The offender must have full knowledge, 3) the offender must have deliberite consent (CCC 1857)

Grave matter is defined in the scriptures:

Mark 10:19

You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and mother.’

The requirements of knowledge and consent reveeal the just nature of God. If you do truly not know it is worong, and if you do nat make the concious choice culpability is diminished.

What sin is mortal according to scripture other than Blasphamy of the Holy Spirit? I don’t accept the definition given above because all sins are done with knowledge and are in fact intentional. Sin is rebelling against God, how could someone rebel without knowledge? That makes no sense.

 

[Indyann]

What sin is mortal according to scripture other than Blasphamy of the Holy Spirit? I don’t accept the definition given above because all sins are done with knowledge and are in fact intentional.

Hank, suppose you have 2 children. Your 10 year old goes to the grocery store and picks up a candy bar and walks out without paying.

He is stopped by security and you have to go down to the store, pay for the candy, and take him home.

The 16 yr old waits till you are asleep, takes your car keys and takes your car, goes for a joy ride and is stopped by the police. You have to go down to jail and pick him up.

Which child deserves the greater punishment?

They both knew what they were doing was wrong, but do they deserve the same consequences?

 

[twb1621]

And I think it probably depends on how you read it, but I see it like this–He says life cannot separate us from the love of God, and life is what happens moment by moment that can cause us to stumble and fall. So I see it covering everything about the future. Also that verse somebody else brought up in Romans 5, where it says that Christians rejoice in their tribulations…If tribulation can (and it can) lead me to fail and sin and maybe lose my salvation, then it is absurd to say we rejoice in tribulations. Yet that is what Paul says. So those two passages plus a ton of others make a solid case for the doctrine that God the Father will never disown his children no matter what.

Tribulations are defined as - distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution ; also : a trying experience
You are not reading the context of that as it is intended. The intended meaninig is that we rejoice in our sufferings that we experience due to our Faith and devotion in God as we know that such suffering brings us closer to God by the hands of the injust.

 

[CWBetts]

What sin is mortal according to scripture other than Blasphamy of the Holy Spirit? I don’t accept the definition given above because all sins are done with knowledge and are in fact intentional. Sin is rebelling against God, how could someone rebel without knowledge? That makes no sense.

Perfect example: December 9th is the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, which is a Holy Day of Obligation for Catholics. To willfully and intentionally miss Mass on a Sunday or HDO is a Mortal sin. However, i did not realize that it was a HDO. So this was not a sin in my case, because I didn’t know, however, since I now know, I will be obligated to go to Mass on this HDO in the future, unless I am sick, am required to work and my employer will not make exception, etc. There is also an issue of coercion.

 

[twb1621]

Response to post #293

How ever convincing this post sounds, I believe there are more opinions of man then the opinion of God in it.

Your comment about if works came out of faith. Do you think that most so called Christians are wrong or right in their relationship to God?
It’s not up to me to judge. what is in a person’s heart and mind is for God to judge.
I get the feeling from this post that you believe that the majority of people who call themselves Christians, are in fact saved. This goes against the bible. You have it reversed. I believe that many consider themselves more righteous than they are, more entitled and deserving of salvation rather than respectful or appreciative of what Jesus did for us.
Many will say, “Lord, Lord!” Who do you think those people are? Is it the bible thumpering prodesants, who search the scripture to find out God’s truth and give you such a hard time, or could it be the thousands the sit back and believe they are saved because they belong to a this church or that church?
Those who knowingly ignore the truth and demean the salvific suffering Jesus endured to live comfortably by their own standards.Does it matter which church you attend? Yes. Especially when you know it does. The road is narrow leading to life and the broad road accepts all kinds of thoughts and beliefs. According to Jesus, it doesn’t matter where you pray from, as long as you pray to the one, true God of Isreal.

Are you saying Jesus doesn’t care if we remain in His Church, His Body?

I sincerely ask you based on your commentary to respond with a rebuttal to those parts of that post 293, that you refute. I would be very interested to know your thoughts more deeply in that. I have copied it below;

Let me say this regarding the philosophy of believing Faith alone is all that is needed and faith is responsible for our good works through grace. Faith is without doubt the salvation of our Lord but good works are our responsibility to perform as He performed and as He requires us to perform with all those who sought His word. If Faith were in fact responsible for our good works most of us would be doing much more than we do, I promise you that and it would be far from comfortable. Do you perform good works to the potential you could or would you have to explain why at times you chose not to be there for someone in distress or even just to be helpful in some not so important way. When you perform a merciful work do you tell others so they know how Christian you are? And is that Christian? We are to Live as He taught us, not just claim the salvation as though it were the winnings from a lottery. While it is true that a person who has found that relationship with our Lord grows in faith, and good works become something that we want to perform because of that love and devotion, the works we perform is always a matter of choice and in themselves when performed for the right reasons give us additional grace. But not everyone who believes to be “Born Again” follows the same degree of effort in works. Some very little if at all, but merely judge others. For a person to proclaim they live up to their full potential of performing works for the love of others in the love of God is self-righteous and that can be very detrimental. Why? Because no one knows their full potential until they are tested by God and that is not a one-time thing. No one knows what those tests will be or if they will be able to pass those tests when the time comes. How many of us can embrace a leper or other mortally sick and contagious person, kiss them on their wounds, give up all they own and all the income they have, placing their very survival in God as people like Saint Francis did. How many people would (with no other solution) be able to pick a man up lying on the side walk barely able to walk on his own, soiled in his own vomit, excrement and/or urine with a stench you could smell 10 feet away, place him in your car on your cloth seat knowing it would absorb the soil with the odor permeating throughout the vehicle interior but ignoring the materialistic aspect just to take him to a hospital or shelter. Or would you rather give the man money for him to make it for care or shelter on his own? How many could leave their families for 6 months or a year to go to some foreign place to perform works of mercy for those devastated by drought, famine, or contagious diseases. How many of us raise our children with the responsibility and care God expects of us and do we realize what is expected of us? If one lives this kind of life, God bless and guide him or her in their pilgrimage. The fact is we don’t know our potential or limitations until those tests come up but what we do or should know, Satan is the father of Lies and to think we couldn’t fall to his deceit is foolish, he is very good at what he does and strives inexhaustibly to take each of us down the wrong path. It is our free will whether we search for the truth in Him, to know Him and to develop in the love and devotion He deserves from each of us. And it is our free will to choose how far we can go in our good works but we never can know if we are living up to our full potential for the love of God until we meet Him in our judgment. That is what all the teaching is about regarding Faith AND works. Oh and by the way, Grace builds in us as love does and LOVE gives us the strength to do some things we wouldn’t do otherwise.

 

[NotWorthy]

Deeds are filthy rags. Good deeds are pleasing to God. What are you confused about? God reads the heart and can be the only one who knows whether your deed is good or if you are trying to throw Him filthy rags. The only thing that matters is where you stand before Him. Then your works will be looked at as good deeds done to please the Lord out of love or filthy rags done which are detestable in the sight of God.

But it (the Scripture you cited) doesn’t say that some deeds are filthy rags and some aren’t. You guys were using this statement regarding “our deeds are nothing but filthy rags” to justify your dogma that our works have nothing to do with our Salvation.

Now, you’re changing your minds and saying, “Well… God knows which deeds are good and with are filthy”. Now I smell Crawfish!!!