The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[guanophore]

Their is but one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Please don’t throw in heretical statements like this one.

Hank, no one but Jesus, the pure Lamb of God can mediate our salvation because He is the perfect atonement for sin. However, we can all intercede and advocate for one another, and in fact, scripture enjoins us to do so. Try to read more slowly, and not be so quick to point the heresy finger! We are talking about apples and oranges here. No one gives their blood for the life of the world but Christ. It is He who makes us partakers of the great ministry of reconciliation.

 

[HankZ]

Well, you can’t have it both ways, Hank. If one is free to choose, then one is not “dead” is one, since dead people can not choose.

Death is the consequence of living in sin, and persons who are dead in sin will inherit the consequence of their state. Adam and Eve also “died” when they ate the apple, but as we see, they were still capable of making decisions, creating progeny, etc. They were in a state of spiritual separation from the fellowship for which God created them.

Furthermore, your perception of the state of mankind prior to regeneration is contrary to the Apostolic Teaching. If we are unable to desire the good, and only wanted to sin continually, we would never be able to choose Christ.

(Eph 2:1) Was Paul not an Appostle? Do you reject that which has been inspired by God. All scripture has been inspired by God which includes dead in your trespasses. There is none rightous, no, not one. For all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Do you need more? It is not my perseption, that could be questioned, but the word of God, that is never wrong.

This is not consistent with the scriptural record either. Not everyone chooses to reject God. .

Romans 3:23;
For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
That is pretty much being scriptural.

This is not different. God has always chosen. He chose to create Adam and Eve. He chose to create and save Abraham, etc, He has always chosen, and has always been faithful, even when we are not.

While I agree with this, it has nothing to do with how people have been saved. Abraham was also saved by grace, through faith, as was everyone listed in the chapt. of Heb 11. God’s plan of salvation has not changed.

No, it is not. People do receive His grace, and understand His sacrifice, then subsequently turn their back on Him. When it says that we are made in the image and likeness of God, it means that we are created by love, for love. Love sets free, it does not compel. God does not coerce us into being with him. This is posession, not love.

No one could be saved and reject it. Unless scripture is conflicting with itself, those who the Father chooses shall be saved. Jesus said not one that my Father has given me, will be lost. I see nothing that can refute OSAS. God is too strong and smart for someone to over power Him or out wit Him. OSAS is very trustable.

 

[HankZ]

Hank, no one but Jesus, the pure Lamb of God can mediate our salvation because He is the perfect atonement for sin. However, we can all intercede and advocate for one another, and in fact, scripture enjoins us to do so. Try to read more slowly, and not be so quick to point the heresy finger! We are talking about apples and oranges here. No one gives their blood for the life of the world but Christ. It is He who makes us partakers of the great ministry of reconciliation.

Look up the definition of mediator and those words you claim do not mean mediator. That is why I say it is heresy. God gave us Jesus as our mediator, no one else can go between us and God. No one else is worthy, not Paul, Peter, Mary, Ellijah or any one else. Living people can pray for another, but that is not interceding. That is asking God to help someone, not representing their case before God.

 

[HankZ]

Communion of the saints is in there my friend. And Mary;s special place in the Church is clearly established by Jesus at the Crucifixion. Remember context. Not a verse here, a verse there, but the Bible as a whole.

Interesting point, the bible as a whole; outside the 4 gospels, how many times is Mary spoken of?

 

[adrift]

Look up the definition of mediator and those words you claim do not mean mediator. That is why I say it is heresy. God gave us Jesus as our mediator, no one else can go between us and God. No one else is worthy, not Paul, Peter, Mary, Ellijah or any one else. Living people can pray for another, but that is not interceding. That is asking God to help someone, not representing their case before God.

: acting through an intervening agency

but that is not interceding. That is asking God to help someone, not representing their case before God

Sounds like the definition of mediation to me or is that going in circles

 

[HankZ]

joshua_b:
1 Timothy 2:5; Jesus is the mediator between man and God.
1 John 2:1; If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father; Christ Jesus the Rightous.

1 Peter; the whole chapter is talking about how we have salvation through Christ. When he is addressing believers, he never mentions salvation being lost. Not until chapter 2 when the influence of false teachings come in, does he say anything about hell.
Paul speaks of salvation that has been obtained. If you haven’t already seen numerous verses to show that, I am willing to look some up for you. Do you want to know them or argue?

 

[twb1621]

My response is post #378.

I really have a hard time focusing on the really long post. I mean no disrespect, I just don’t get everything that is in them. I only can get bits and pieces of them. That is why I ussually skip the really long ones. I know it isn’t right.

Thats ok, Hank. If I can do something to make it easier to understand I would want you to let me know.

 

[HankZ]

Sounds like the definition of mediation to me or is that going in circles

A fire is breaking out at your neighbers house. You can call the fire department and ask them to help. This would be like praying.

Same thing, but now you are there among the firemen telling them how to do there job best. You are turning on the hose for them and basically messing up their ability to do their job. This what it would be like to have anyone but Jesus as your mediator.

 

[CWBetts]

Interesting point, the bible as a whole; outside the 4 gospels, how many times is Mary spoken of?

You mean besides Revelation and the OT prophesies?

 

[CWBetts]

Look up the definition of mediator and those words you claim do not mean mediator. That is why I say it is heresy. God gave us Jesus as our mediator, no one else can go between us and God. No one else is worthy, not Paul, Peter, Mary, Ellijah or any one else. Living people can pray for another, but that is not interceding. That is asking God to help someone, not representing their case before God.

We do not hold Mary to be a mediator, but an intercessor. Asking the saints to pray for us is no different than asking another christion on earth to pray for us, and since they are in Heaven, we KNOW their standing with God.

 

[adrift]

A fire is breaking out at your neighbers house. You can call the fire department and ask them to help. This would be like praying.
.

Definition

acting through an intervening agency

By definition it is being a mediator.

 

[HankZ]

You mean besides Revelation and the OT prophesies?

I mean in the bible anywhere other then Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I do not find her in revelation.

 

[HankZ]

Definition
By definition it is being a mediator.

me·di·a·tor

me·di·a·tor [mdee àytər]
(plural me·di·a·tors)
n

1. somebody helping end dispute: somebody who works with both sides in a dispute in an attempt to help them to reach an agreement
2. substance acting as medium: a substance that acts as a medium in transferring something from one place to another in the body.

 

[NotWorthy]

Now about being ‘forced’ to love God. Who, after recieving this much grace and love from the almighty could ever say they choose not too? How rediculous of a statement.

The only thing ridiculous is your rebuttal. Numerous people have rejected this Grace and fallen back into their own vomit like dogs.

 

[NotWorthy]

Charity please. We arent calling your teaching herecies. Please extend us the same courtesy

I think I’ve been guilty of that. Numerous times on this thread, I’ve called OSAS a foul stench and a heresy. I don’t know if its too late to warn you, but I am guilty as charged.

 

[HankZ]

God’s word does not follow what each individual interprets it as. He spoke the Word and He had one meaning. And you are misunderstanding and ignoring much of it.

I disagree that there is only one meaning. God gave His law to the Jews through Moses. That does not mean we as non-Jews(speaking for myself) cannot gain much fruitful and wonderful things from the first 5 books. The entire Old Testament was given to the Jews. If we are to take it all in the same way, then people would be stoning their children, instead of understanding the very seriousness of sin.

 

[HankZ]

The only thing ridiculous is your rebuttal. Numerous people have rejected this Grace and fallen back into their own vomit like dogs.

If that is the case, they were not saved. No one can take them away from the Father’s mighty hand.

 

[Alindawyl]

Dead in your trespasses is just that. You are dead in sin and want to sin, and want nothing else but to sin. You do have free will prior to being saved and can choose. Unfortunately, we have always choosen to reject God and continue in sin. That has been a choice we have made each and every time. Now what is different, is God has choosen this time. He has not only choosen, but He is faithful to carry it to completion. That is why it is said, for by grace you have been saved, and not of works, least any man may boast. No one can brag about their salvation, good works or anything else.

Now about being ‘forced’ to love God. Who, after recieving this much grace and love from the almighty could ever say they choose not too? How rediculous of a statement.

It’s a much more ridiculous statement to claim that of all the people in history who have made an altar call, public declaration of faith, or what have you, none have ever at some later date turned their back on Christ and rejected him. Especially since Jesus himself said that such people exist. Recall the parable of the sower of seeds. Matthew:13. Specifically, look the explanation given in verses 20 and 21:

The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away.

How much clearer could Jesus be? He not only gives the parable in verses 3-9 but follows it up with a detailed explanation of the symbolism. A person who initially hears the word and receives it with joy could think of themselves as once saved always saved all they like. Yet Jesus says that some of those people will turn their back on him the moment they suffer tribulation or persecution.

I guess you could claim that those who have genuine faith which will not waver, the ones for whom the seed has fallen on rich soil, have been saved once for all time. But only God, who can see the past, present and future together, can possibly have that knowledge. We in our finite existence do not know with certainty if the seed for us has landed on rocky ground or rich soil. For us, only time will tell. As I do not have the infinite knowledge of God, I’ll just have to continue striving to do his will to the best of my ability and trust that my faith will not waver.

 

[NotWorthy]

No one could be saved and reject it. Unless scripture is conflicting with itself, those who the Father chooses shall be saved. Jesus said not one that my Father has given me, will be lost. I see nothing that can refute OSAS. God is too strong and smart for someone to over power Him or out wit Him. OSAS is very trustable.

Then explain John 15.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.

 

[NotWorthy]

It’s a much more ridiculous statement to claim that of all the people in history who have made an altar call, public declaration of faith, or what have you, none have ever at some later date turned their back on Christ and rejected him.

Alindawyl, Alindawyl, Alindawyl. When will you never learn?!? Those people were never truly saved or they wouldn’t have thrown it away!!! See how nicely that fits in OSAS? If you reject Christ, you were never in him in the first place!