The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[HankZ]

Do you think it was unnecessary for all the theologians and scholars who gathered so many times over the centuries (and still do) to put so much time and effort into translating AND interpreting the Bible when you can do it without them? Do you understand why it takes groups of specialists in multiple fields of study and research to interpret scripture? And you believe you can figure it out and understand it yourself or in your private group. Hank, think about that please.

No, I can’t interpret or translate anything. The Holy Spirit has been given to all believers, and without Him, I would not understand anything in the bible. It seems as though you believe there are only certain believers that can understand scripture. I hope I’m wrong, because that would not follow scripture.

The reason they meet in groups, is because not everyone who claims to have the Holy Spirit, has the Holy Spirit. The example we have is the apostles met in groups and assigned groups to certain things, they always seemed to want to appoint only those who were filled with the Holy Spirit. As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens another man. There has to be accountability when such an important task is being done.

 

[twb1621]

No, I can’t interpret or translate anything. The Holy Spirit has been given to all believers, and without Him, I would not understand anything in the bible. It seems as though you believe there are only certain believers that can understand scripture. I hope I’m wrong, because that would not follow scripture.

The reason they meet in groups, is because not everyone who claims to have the Holy Spirit, has the Holy Spirit. The example we have is the apostles met in groups and assigned groups to certain things, they always seemed to want to appoint only those who were filled with the Holy Spirit. As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens another man. There has to be accountability when such an important task is being done.

Hank, you take scripture that you think you got a handle on and run with it and blow off the rest like God’s word is selective. It is not, it works together and no offense, but you are like an over anxious boy who’s parents bought him his first car but can’t drive it because he hasn’t gotten his drivers license yet. Until you learn and know how to drive, you have no idea how to handle that car but you just got to drive it anyway. I feel for you, I really do. So many people here would willingly help and have tried to help you but you battle them because you don’t want to hear it or have to accept something is different than what you thought it to be. you are limiting and hindering yourself and others in the process. If you ever decide your mind and heart is open to hearing the possibilities, you are welcome to write me, I am not here to try to pressure you into something you are totally disinterested in learning about and that has become very obvious.

 

[joe370]

Works and faith, do go together as far as, you can “Show” your faith through good works, but you are saved through faith. You can have a saving faith before you do good works, but you cannot have good works before you have a saving faith.

You can have a tree before the fruit, but you cannot have fruit before you have the tree.

Every Catholic would agree with you vis-a-vis the preceding quote…

However, what if I have a saving faith and I die before I do any good works?

Scripture speaks of faith plus works, quite often:

*“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” *James 2:14-17

“Faith working through love…” Gal 5:6

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only James 2:24

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” James 2:20

*“He will render to each one according to his works…” *Romans 2:6-11.

“eternal life by perseverance in good works” Romans 2:8

I use to think the N.T. couldn’t be trusted because of one apparent contradiction in Ephesians 2:8-9: * “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast” *

…at least until I realized Saint Paul’s point was to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE, not by obeying the Mosaic Law or by any HUMAN ACTION; without Jesus’ ransom, all works would be futile, because we all fall short of the glory due to our inherent sinful nature. The 1st century
Jewish people no longer had the ability to boast in front of Gentiles of having a privileged relationship with God because they kept the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision. Jesus came not to destroy the law or prophets but to usher in a new means to salvation. Out with the old, in with the new (Romans 17-21, 25-29, 3:21-22, 27-30)

 

[joe370]

No, I can’t interpret or translate anything. The Holy Spirit has been given to all believers, and without Him, I would not understand anything in the bible. It seems as though you believe there are only certain believers that can understand scripture. I hope I’m wrong, because that would not follow scripture.

Hey HankZ…

If the H.S. has been given to all believers to interpret the Bible as they see fit, then why are there so many churches/denominations, all teaching something different to some degree.; why the need for so many variegated churches --period, if Jesus only built one church which is His Body with Him as the Head, the House of the Living God, thePillar and Foundation of Truth, circa 33 AD which is guided by the Holy Spirit. (there can be only one truth)

Truth Is Not Relative…

Truth = Truth Right = Right Wrong = Wrong. When it comes to salvation, there is no what you feel is Truth or what I feel is Truth; there is only Jesus, who is Truth (I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the father but by me) --and His One Church, established circa 33 AD (“I will build My Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”) --which is His Mystical Body, the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth --and Jesus is the savior of His Body, the Church, and the savior of all those who belong to it, according to the Bible. His Church was built to unite us as one, just as the Father, the Son and the H.S. are One. Individual interpretation of the Bible (sola scriptura) sadly, has divided us.

If Jesus is head of the church, being the Savior of the body, “…as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23) then His Church cannot fail.

Many people believe, e.g. my sister --that Jesus wouldn’t care about various denominations, etc. but the Bible clearly teaches otherwise. For example:

John 17:20-21.* “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word through the written and spoken word of the apostles that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they may also be in us, so that the world may believe that thou has sent me.”*

Unity was to be the gauge by which Jesus’ Church was to be found.

For example, My sister belongs to a"non denominational church" --what ever that is; my brother belongs to a Lutheran church; my girl friend belongs to an Episcopalian church and I have a friend who belongs to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and each of these churches teach something the other opposes; for example the Evangelical Lutheran Church in some instances is pro-choice regarding abortion. For the other churches to denounce this belief is to put their church in a position of authority, even though Protestantism bases their beliefs on sola scriptura and sola fida. (the bible is their sole authority, as it was, once mine as a former Lutheran)

If the H.S. teaches and guides all believers on an individual basis, then there should be one Church to which all believers go.

Does the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth teach a myriad of truths to each separate church/denomination or does the H.S., the Spirit of Truth teach ONE truth to ONE Church?

Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life.” No one comes to the Father except through me and the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus to Guide His Church is truth, “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever…” then His Church, which is His Mystical Body, guided by the Holy Spirit, is one with Jesus **and the only way one is saved; the only way to His Father. Jesus said He is the savior of His Body, the Church; He never says He is the savior of a particular person, as long as they read His Bible so it only stands to reason, if we want to be saved, we must enter into His Church, His Mystical Body, where we can be one with Him through the sacrament of the Eucharist. Jesus will defend His church from within and from without, against all adversaries for all time, regardless of individual apostasies.

God’s worst enemy will never vanquish His church, no matter how hard he tries (devil):

*“I will build My Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” *

If all of the above is true, and it is, if you believe your Bible, (for all you sola scriptura advocates) then Jesus’ one Church which is Jesus’ Body, the house of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth (In this world Jesus has one Body; God has one house; the Holy Spirit delivers one truth! (There can be only one truth; truth is not relative) –then all Christians should believe the doctrines of His Church. By listening to His established Church circa 33 AD, when His Church tells us that Mary was not the mother of Joseph, James Judas, Simon, or any daughters, and that she is the “EverVirgin" Mary we are essentially listening to Jesus Himself; after all He is the head of the Church; the savior of His One Body, the Church;His established Church circa 33 AD is the One House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of One Truth.
By listening to Jesus’ established Church circa 33 AD, when His Church tells us for example, that Mary was not the mother of Joseph, James Judas, Simon, or any daughters, and that she is the "EverVirgin” Mary **we are essentially listening to Jesus Himself; after all He is the head of the Church; the savior of His Body, the Church.

If the C.C. failed, then God failed, and we are all as Saint Paul says, still in our sin; this is the vary reason I am now a Catholic…

 

[NonCatholic]

We make all this way too complex. Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. "
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Isn’t beautiful, and it is true, before i was saved i could read the Bible and understand some things in general, but know not only can I understand, but can actually apply it to my life and as a result, i have become a better father, husband, coworker, and neighbor. This is the power of the Holy Spirit living through me, not I.

God bless the hearong of His word with all understanding. AMEN

 

[joe370]

We make all this way too complex. Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. "…

However, they can be known through Jesus’ established Church (that’s why He built it) because the Holy Spirit was sent to His established Church on Pentecost and that church was told that the H.S. would be with that church "forever."

…But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Absolutely….

…Isn’t beautiful, and it is true, before i was saved i could read the Bible and understand some things in general, but know not only can I understand, but can actually apply it to my life and as a result, i have become a better father, husband, coworker, and neighbor. This is the power of the Holy Spirit living through me, not I.

**That’s awesome; always follow your heart for the bible says, you will find (understand) me when you seek me with all your, soul and mind. **

God bless the hearong of His word with all understanding. AMEN

*These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit…

**which was promised to Jesus’ Church at Pentecost, and told them --Matt. 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” **

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[c] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching (His church was charged with task of teaching in His stead) them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo,** I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen**

…teaches,

via His established church circa 33 AD…

…comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.*

**Absolutely, no one can instruct the Lord… **

**Jesus gave Peter and the apostles, His established Church (Matthew 16:18) the power and authority to carry out His work. “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are
retained.”(John 20:23) **

**Did the Holy Spirit leave Jesus’ church once all the apostles passed away, rendering these
commandments null and void; if so then all Christians are still in their sins and Jesus did in fact leave His Church orphans.
**

**Jesus said to His established church and no other, regarding the Holy Spirit, * “I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth… *(there can only be one truth propagated by the one church established by Jesus circa 33 AD) …The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But (his church) you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you.” John 14
**

**“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” Colossians 24

Everything done in the name of Jesus Christ should be done for the sake of Jesus’ Mystical Body THE CHURCH!!!**

God bless…

 

[joe370]

oops–I meant heart soul and mind.

 

[twb1621]

We make all this way too complex. Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. "
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Isn’t beautiful, and it is true, before i was saved i could read the Bible and understand some things in general, but know not only can I understand, but can actually apply it to my life and as a result, i have become a better father, husband, coworker, and neighbor. This is the power of the Holy Spirit living through me, not I.

God bless the hearong of His word with all understanding. AMEN

It’s wonderful you have such insight now but the problem is people who believe this way base it on a couple of scripture verses that are taken out of context and push aside many many others to follow that way of thinking. Your response is a perfect example, posting this response after so many other verses quoted that far outway this interpretation. Scripture does not conflict and once a believer in OSAS realizes this all teachings in scripture will come to life and His teachings will be emulated properly as He desires. Faith is first and formost, it is the foundation of our salvation, but it must be supported by our works which is how we are to Follow Him. That is why the apostles lived as they did in a life of humility and charity rather than living as comfortably as they could have and believing it was good enough to have faith and teach. As He told us, it is not meant to be easy…

 

[guanophore]

Honestly, That is between me and God. No one else needs to know. This has nothing to do with this discussion.

Let us frame the question another way, so it is not so personal. If a person is saved, and they fall into a sin, such a one has a deep desire to please God, and be obedient, right? Would it be proper for such a person to ask God to forgive them for the sin they committed?

No, I can’t interpret or translate anything. The Holy Spirit has been given to all believers, and without Him, I would not understand anything in the bible. It seems as though you believe there are only certain believers that can understand scripture. I hope I’m wrong, because that would not follow scripture.

Certainly anyone can read scripture, and each one understands it through the filter of their own perceptions and education (or lack of it), life experience, etc. We all perceive through filters. Some read scripture as literature, and The Bible as Literature is often taught in classes at college. Many of these people do not believe it to be the Word of God, and read it to critique it. Some use it as a reference work for history. For example, some archaeologists have used it to try to locate certiain ruins.

The reason they meet in groups, is because not everyone who claims to have the Holy Spirit, has the Holy Spirit.

I agree, but how does meeting in a group change that? Is it not possible that the whole group can be astray? Do you remember the Christians that Paul found who were very devout, but “never even heard that there is a holy spirit”?

The example we have is the apostles met in groups and assigned groups to certain things, they always seemed to want to appoint only those who were filled with the Holy Spirit. As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens another man. There has to be accountability when such an important task is being done.

You are right, of course, only one group has Jesus promise to be preserved from error. Why would one separate themselves from such a great and precious promise?

 

[Philthy]

He does say, “Come, you who are blessed by My Father.” Who are blessed by the Father, except the elect?

Those who do the will of the Father and persevere to the end, like Christ, are the elect. They find this out when they die.

 

[HankZ]

No, I can’t interpret or translate anything. The Holy Spirit has been given to all believers, and without Him, I would not understand anything in the bible. It seems as though you believe there are only certain believers that can understand scripture. I hope I’m wrong, because that would not follow scripture.

Hey HankZ…

If the H.S. has been given to all believers to interpret the Bible as they see fit, then why are there so many churches/ions, all teaching something different to some degree.; why the need for so many variegated churches --period, if Jesus only built one church which is His Body with Him as the Head, the House of the Living God, thePillar and Foundation of Truth, circa 33 AD which is guided by the Holy Spirit. (there can be only one truth)

Truth Is Not Relative…

Truth = Truth Right = Right Wrong = Wrong. When it comes to salvation, there is no what you feel is Truth
If Jesus is head of the church, being the Savior of the body, “…as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23) then His Church cannot fail.

Many people believe, e.g. my sister --that Jesus wouldn’t care about various denominations, etc. but the Bible clearly teaches otherwise. For example:

John 17:20-21.* “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word through the written and spoken word of the apostles that they may all be one*; even as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they may also be in us, so that the world may believe that thou has sent me.”

Unity was to be the gauge by which Jesus’ Church was to be found.

For example, My sister belongs to a"non denominational church" --what ever that is; my brother belongs to a Lutheran church; my girl friend belongs to an Episcopalian church and I have a friend who belongs to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and each of these churches teach something the other opposes; for example the Evangelical Lutheran Church in some instances is pro-choice regarding abortion. For the other churches to denounce this belief is to put their church in a position of authority, even though Protestantism bases their beliefs on sola scriptura and sola fida. (the bible is their sole authority, as it was, once mine as a former Lutheran)

If the H.S. teaches and guides all believers on an individual basis, then there should be one Church to which all believers go.

Does the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth teach a myriad of truths to each separate church/denomination or does the H.S., the Spirit of Truth teach ONE truth to ONE Church?

Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life.” No one comes to the Father except through me and the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus to Guide His Church is truth, “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever…” then His Church, which is His Mystical Body, guided by the Holy Spirit, is one with Jesus **and the only way one is saved; the only way to His Father. Jesus said He is the savior of His Body, the Church; He never says He is the savior of a particular person, as long as they read His Bible so it only stands to reason, if we want to be saved, we must enter into His Church, His Mystical Body, where we can be one with Him through the sacrament of the Eucharist. Jesus will defend His church from within and from without, against all adversaries for all time, regardless of individual apostasies.

God’s worst enemy will never vanquish His church, no matter how hard he tries (devil):

*“I will build My Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” *

If all of the above is true, and it is, if you believe your Bible, (for all you sola scriptura advocates) then Jesus’ one Church which is Jesus’ Body, the house of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth (In this world Jesus has one Body; God has one house; the Holy Spirit delivers one truth! (There can be only one truth; truth is not relative) –then all Christians should believe the doctrines of His Church. By listening to His established Church circa 33 AD, when His Church tells us that Mary was not the mother of Joseph, James Judas, Simon, or any daughters, and that she is the “EverVirgin" Mary we are essentially listening to Jesus Himself; after all He is the head of the Church; the savior of His One Body, the Church;His established Church circa 33 AD is the One House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of One Truth.
By listening to Jesus’ established Church circa 33 AD, when His Church tells us for example, that Mary was not the mother of Joseph, James Judas, Simon, or any daughters, and that she is the "EverVirgin” Mary **we are essentially listening to Jesus Himself; after all He is the head of the Church; the savior of His Body, the Church.

If the C.C. failed, then God failed, and we are all as Saint Paul says, still in our sin; this is the vary reason I am now a Catholic…

If you think of Christ church as a denomination, whether Catholic, Baptist, Luthern, ect…, then you would have a false idea of what Christ church is. Christ church is not bound by affiliations, popes, denominations, or anything else. Christ true church are His followers. They are in nearly every city in the world. The Holy Spirit has never caused a new church, that has been accomplished by pride and false teachings. When a false teaching arises in a church and the members are too prideful to see or admit they are wrong, the true followers of Christ should leave that church if they won’t listen, yet not forget assembling as is requested by Paul. Church isn’t in the building or the structure, but in the Christians, who are true believers of Jesus Christ.

 

[HankZ]

Those who do the will of the Father and persevere to the end, like Christ, are the elect. They find this out when they die.

God’s elect are not given a choice, they are elected by God Himself. Here is the definition of;

**e·lect **

1. chosen but not yet in office: chosen by a vote but not yet formally installed in office (used in combination)
   the president-elect
2. religion chosen by God: chosen by God for special favor, salvation, or a task

npl

1. select group: a specially privileged or gifted group (literary)
   World-class opera singers are among today’s elect.
2. religion people chosen by God: people believed to be specially chosen or favored by God, e.g. those chosen by God for salvation

Where do you see in this anything that indicates your effort? In case your searching for it, it is not there. God’s elect means that He chooses those who He chooses, period.

 

[CWBetts]

If you think of Christ church as a denomination, whether Catholic, Baptist, Luthern, ect…, then you would have a false idea of what Christ church is. Christ church is not bound by affiliations, popes, denominations, or anything else. Christ true church are His followers. They are in nearly every city in the world. The Holy Spirit has never caused a new church, that has been accomplished by pride and false teachings. When a false teaching arises in a church and the members are too prideful to see or admit they are wrong, the true followers of Christ should leave that church if they won’t listen, yet not forget assembling as is requested by Paul. Church isn’t in the building or the structure, but in the Christians, who are true believers of Jesus Christ.

This “self-defined” Christianity is whay there ar THOUSANDS of Protestans denominations. The fact of the matter is that the Bible does not teach thT Chistians can start a new denomination every time they get mad at the pastor. This is a phenomenon that has exploded and spread like a cancer through Christianity thanks to the heresy of Sola Scriptura. The average layperson does not have the ability to accurately interperet scripture on his own, as evidenced by the Ethiopian in Acts who asked Philip “How can I know unless somebody shows me.” This is why we have the Magistarium, protected by the Holy Spirt.

 

[fbl9]

God’s elect are not given a choice, they are elected by God Himself. Here is the definition of;

**e·lect **

1. chosen but not yet in office: chosen by a vote but not yet formally installed in office (used in combination)
   the president-elect
2. religion chosen by God: chosen by God for special favor, salvation, or a task

npl

1. select group: a specially privileged or gifted group (literary)
   World-class opera singers are among today’s elect.
2. religion people chosen by God: people believed to be specially chosen or favored by God, e.g. those chosen by God for salvation

Where do you see in this anything that indicates your effort? In case your searching for it, it is not there. God’s elect means that He chooses those who He chooses, period.

basically you are saying Hank that only the "elect " are to be saved so there is really no point in preaching a single word to anybody cause God has chosen and there is nothing that anybody can do.
IOW Hank you didn’t even need to do the act of accepting Christ for it is God’s choice that you are to be saved regardless of your actions.so Hank go comitt all the vileness inside you you are saved i am not of the elect so don’t bother preaching to me cause it won’t do any good.

 

[CWBetts]

basically you are saying Hank that only the "elect " are to be saved so there is really no point in preaching a single word to anybody cause God has chosen and there is nothing that anybody can do.
IOW Hank you didn’t even need to do the act of accepting Christ for it is God’s choice that you are to be saved regardless of your actions.so Hank go comitt all the vileness inside you you are saved i am not of the elect so don’t bother preaching to me cause it won’t do any good.

And you have just pointed out the single biggest problem with Calvinism! And I can’t seem to find that in the Bible anywhere. I wonder why that is?

 

[HankZ]

Let us frame the question another way, so it is not so personal. If a person is saved, and they fall into a sin, such a one has a deep desire to please God, and be obedient, right? Would it be proper for such a person to ask God to forgive them for the sin they committed?

The scripture is clear that we should confess our sins to not only God, but to brothers so as to have the accountability of not to continue in the acts as an unbeliever.

Certainly anyone can read scripture, and each one understands it through the filter of their own perceptions and education (or lack of it), life experience, etc. We all perceive through filters. Some read scripture as literature, and The Bible as Literature is often taught in classes at college. Many of these people do not believe it to be the Word of God, and read it to critique it. Some use it as a reference work for history. For example, some archaeologists have used it to try to locate certiain ruins.

I’ve heard of using fish finders to deter the radar that is used by police to catch people speeding, that doesn’t make it right. God gave the Holy Spirit to His followers in order that THEY can read and interpret the bible and be lead into all truth.

I agree, but how does meeting in a group change that? Is it not possible that the whole group can be astray? Do you remember the Christians that Paul found who were very devout, but “never even heard that there is a holy spirit”?

Certainly many non-believers can be in agreement. A group of believers can usually see an unbeliever for who they really are after a while, which is the purpose of believers being in agreement. At my old church, we had a non-believer as the church treasurer. He was seen for what he was and removed from this position.

You are right, of course, only one group has Jesus promise to be preserved from error. Why would one separate themselves from such a great and precious promise?

Exactly. Why would someone belong to a church that has false teaching that go directly against areas of scripture? Christ church is His body and His followers cannot be separated from that, but Jesus also gives us other believers to help us through the tough times and be brothers and sisters to those who are going through tough times as well as hold one another accountable.

 

[HankZ]

I believe that you are correct that you can not “lose” the gift of salvation (as testified in Scripture), but, Scripture is also very clear that we are free to give it back adn decide we don’t want it anymore.

This far from true. Who is more powerful than God? Jesus said none can be snatched from the Father’s hand, do you think they can wiggle their way out of the Father’s hand? He who started a good work is faithful to complete it.

 

[CWBetts]

So what you are telling me is that if a man would accept Christ as his savior, POOF!!! He is saved for all time. Then later in life, he turns his back on God, and renounces God, and fully embraces Paganism (just as an example) he is still saved? I don’t think can be backed upo with Scriptures…

 

[joe370]

Hey Hank Z…

**If you think of Christ church as a denomination, whether Catholic, Baptist, Luthern, ect…, then you would have a false idea of what Christ church is. Christ church is not bound by affiliations, popes, denominations, or anything else. Christ true church are His followers. They are in nearly every city in the world… **

Which church that is *“in nearly every city in the world” *would you recommend I attend? The bible says Jesus built One church and that He would be with His One Church “forever” --nothing will ever vanquish His One Church which is His Body, the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth,; furthermore, Jesus is th Savior of His One Church, according to the Bible. and He built His Church circa 33 AD. So, if Jesus’ Church cannot fail, then His established Church, in the 1st century which is *“in nearly every city in the world” * must still exist today amongst all the other churches which can trace their origin back to a man or women, not Jesus Christ --not to impugn anyones work of course. I am just trying to be logical!

And so I say to you, you are Peter, (kepha)and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church, (not churches) and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

**…The Holy Spirit has never caused a new church, that has been accomplished by pride and false teachings… **

The Holy Spirit is not responsible for any new church, accomplished by pride and false teachings or otherwise. The Holy Spirit was sent to Jesus’ One Holy, Catholic (universal) --*“go out and make disciples of all nations” *–and Apostolic Church circa 33 AD

.**…When a false teaching arises in a church and the members are too prideful to see or admit they are wrong, the true followers of Christ should leave that church if they won’t listen, yet not forget assembling as is requested by Paul. **

Again, where can Jesus’ assembly be found? If we want to find Jesus, who is way the truth and the life, shouldn’t we as true followers attempt to find the Church Jesus Christ built; the Church that He promised to save; the church that was started circa 33 AD and would last “forever”:

“I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth… (there can only be one truth propagated by the one church established by Jesus circa 33 AD) The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you.” John 14 --the Church comprised of both the “wheat and the chaff” – Jesus predicted such corruption was inevitable:* “It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come!” *Luke 17:1 --the church that would be one:

John 10:16; – there shall be one fold and one shepherd Eph 4:3-6; – one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father Rom 16:17; – avoid those who create dissensions 1 Cor 1:10; – I urge that there be no divisions among you Phil 2:2; – be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing Rom 15:5; – God grant you to think in harmony with one another Jn 17:17-23; – I pray that they may be one, as we are one Jn 17: 23; – that they may be brought to perfection as one 1 Cor 12:13; – in one spirit we were baptized into one body Rom 12:5; – we, though many, are one body in Christ Eph 4:4; – one body, one Spirit, called to one hope Col 3:15; – the peace into which you were called in one body.

As a former Protestant (Lutheran) this lack of unity and oneness really bothered me; none of the preceding passages/commandments were being followed outside the C.C. --really bothered me!

Church isn’t in the building or the structure, but in the Christians, who are true believers of Jesus Christ.

I couldn’t agree more; Jesus’ One Church, established in the 1st century by God --the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth --guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time --"isn’t in the building or the structure, but in the Christians, who are true believers of Jesus Christ.’

Of course I would never try and impose my beliefs on anyone else; if I am wrong could you illustrate why I am wrong? I am very open-minded!

 

[HankZ]

In this thread you have not been the only OSAS supporter. I didn’t want to leave the others out in case they felt like responding again.

There is no contradiction in Scripture. Any which is apparently present is due to a lack of understanding on our part. Therefore I look to the Church, which is guided in teaching by the Holy Spirit, to explain (not interpret but explain) why there is no contradiction. If I have any agenda, it’s placing my trust in the Church which Jesus himself established.

So far you have been the one ignoring that which you find to be contradictory. You have what you believe to be a nice, logical framework for why certain passages of Scripture support OSAS. If it made sense, you would also have an explanation for why any apparently conflicting passages are not actually in conflict. Yet instead you ignore them. The parable of the sower of seeds. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27. Romans 11:13-23, which fbl9 mentioned. John 15, which NotWorthy has mentioned more than once. And there have been others.

Exlpanations have been posted in this thread many times by many posters for why interpreting OSAS from the various passages you and other OSAS supporters have quoted is incorrect. You are free to believe that we are the ones who are in error. But if so, then you should have no trouble reconciling the passages mentioned in the previous paragraph with OSAS. If OSAS is truly the correct belief, then there should be a logical answer.

I was rocky ground and had seed thrown on me. I shot up and had no roots. So I fell back into my life style which I will not discuss here, but can assure you, it was not a christian way of living. I had what is very common, a feelings conversion. I believed that I could make myself better by fulfilling my part. As I said, I fell away from this “faith.” I also see myself where the seed fell among the weeds and the things of life quickly made me long for the “old life,” I had that was never satisfying. I wanted to fill my life with things and stuff. It wasn’t until I was born-again, that I realized that life is about whorshipping God. I was created to serve Him, as was every person who has had a breath of air in their lounges. This final seed was cast on good soil. I was ready, willing and because God caused me to be, I was able to recieve the gospel with a Joy I had never known before.

The explinations given in this thread about why OSAS is wrong, have been inaccurate and/or quotes have been taken out of context. I have not been given any answer that refutes what I read in God’s word, not even a tiny bit of truth has been given to dispute it. If someone choses to ignore scripture and blindly follow the blind leader, Jesus said that person will end up in the ditch with the blind leader.