The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

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the good news is God uses even those steeped in the lie. THey are our brothers in Christ- seperated from the head, but still brothers. THey fulfill the great commission- they bring lost souls to Jesus.

You’ve been doing an outstanding job presenting the truth!! It is difficult but know this, you plant- but God makes it grow. God is using you!!

very exciting
 
the good news is God uses even those steeped in the lie. THey are our brothers in Christ- seperated from the head, but still brothers. THey fulfill the great commission- they bring lost souls to Jesus.

You’ve been doing an outstanding job presenting the truth!! It is difficult but know this, you plant- but God makes it grow. God is using you!!

very exciting
i know all about planting(farmer)😃 and it is only God that causes the growth.🙂
 
i think i may take your advice and stop for now too…i am not reacting out of love but more towards anger(anger because of the beleifs of a mere man are leading too many astray)…God bless you …
I always have to remind myself that love is why we get involved in these conversations, not pride or anger, and that the point is not to “win” an argument. It’s to speak the truth at all times, in case this is the moment when the questioner is receptive to hearing it. Usually the questioner is just looking for an argument rather than seeking illumination. We should hope it’s the latter, even though it’s usually the former.
 
argueing does serve the purpose…the fact that they are here argueing means they are exposing themselves to the truth…I’d say the ones that come here are very sincere, and that sincerity will lead them to His Church- for where else can they turn? And as I read this thread I saw great patience and love shown- over at (Edited to prevent board swarming) there is real anger and name calling and belittling.

God Bless
 
I always have to remind myself that love is why we get involved in these conversations, not pride or anger, and that the point is not to “win” an argument. It’s to speak the truth at all times, in case this is the moment when the questioner is receptive to hearing it. Usually the questioner is just looking for an argument rather than seeking illumination. We should hope it’s the latter, even though it’s usually the former.
:hug1: then:banghead: then:ouch: then:(
 
argueing does serve the purpose…the fact that they are here argueing means they are exposing themselves to the truth…I’d say the ones that come here are very sincere, and that sincerity will lead them to His Church- for where else can they turn? And as I read this thread I saw great patience and love shown- over at (Edited to prevent board swarming) there is real anger and name calling and belittling.

God Bless
Yeah, you’re right. Always assume a positive motive unless given an extremely clear reason to think otherwise :o
 
i think i may take your advice and stop for now too…i am not reacting out of love but more towards anger(anger because of the beleifs of a mere man are leading too many astray)…God bless you …
Same thing here. That’s why I’ll be on here for a while, say two weeks or so, and then I’ll just disappear. It just becomes too much. I love it, but I get addicted to being logged on and posting, and my motivation very quickly goes from spreading the truth to wanting to display how right I am (which, of course, I am right, but because the Church is right, and not because of myself).
 
Same thing here. That’s why I’ll be on here for a while, say two weeks or so, and then I’ll just disappear. It just becomes too much. I love it, but I get addicted to being logged on and posting, and my motivation very quickly goes from spreading the truth to wanting to display how right I am (which, of course, I am right, but because the Church is right, and not because of myself).
It seems like we all feel the same way. First enthused, then frustrated then time for a cool down period to regroup emotionally. When you Love someone as we love our Lord, it becomes defensive in protecting the Word of God and that is when it’s time to take a break for me…
 
Hi, Firmfoundation, (Part 1)

It has taken me some time to digest all of the posts - so, please forgive me for running behind the group.

Allow me to make a comment on this approach.
And I think it probably depends on how you read it, but I see it like this–He says life cannot separate us from the love of God, and life is what happens moment by moment that can cause us to stumble and fall.
You are so right: it really does depend on how we read this. Isolating phrases to justify a particular position does nothing to safeguard the context in which that particular pharase appears. One best read entire chapters or at least entire sections to get the idea being presented in God’s Holy Word.

Let’s take a look at what Christ said that appears to address the OSAS concept. As you know, Christ’s presentations were usually in the form of parables - a teaching style not used by St. Paul. So, let’s look at what we have:

As I count it, there are 57 parables recorded in the 4 Gospels. This link lists them in alphabetical order. (lifeofchrist.com/teachings/parables/ ) No one parable is presented by all of the Gospel Writers, John just recrods 3, and only 10 of these 57 parables are recorded by the Synoptics. Not to say that one parable is more valuable then another, but rather to look at the ten that appear in 3 of the 4 Gospels may give us a good idea of what is being stressed through repitition. (Forgive the jumbled appearance, I was not able to present these in the Excel columns I had designed. The first reference is Matthew, then Mark and then Luke.) For simplicity, only Matthew’s account will be presented. Let’s see what we have:

PARABLE MATT MARK LUKE
1- Budding fig tree 24:32-35 13:28-32 21:29-33
2- Christian light 5:14-16 4:21-23 8:16-18
3- Divided kingdom 12:24-30 3:22-27 11:14-23
4- Great physician 9:10-13 2:15-17 5:29-32
5- Grooms attendants 9:14-15 2:18-20 5:33-35
6- Landowner 21:33-46 12:1-12 20:9-18
7- Mustard seed 13:31-32 4:30-32 13:18-19
8- New wine 9:17 2:22 5:37-39
9- Salt without taste 5:13 9:50 14:34-35
10- The Sower (part 1) 13:3-9 4:3-20 8:4-15

1- ( “Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” ) Admittedly, not much on OSAS one way or the other.

2- ( “You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.” ) Here is an actual command that our light MUST shine before others - and “light” is clarified as to “good deeds” (works?). As I see this, no one is just sitting on their Faith - but, actually working for the Kingdom of God. But, again, nothing much on OSAS. Let’s keep looking 🙂

3- ( "But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man drives out demons only by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons.” But he knew what they were thinking and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your own people drive them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” ) Here we see a genuine call to all - either one is with Christ and gathers to His Love by following His commands - or they scatter. There is no third course or choice. It could be argued that this is an on-going choice we must make - or - the OSAS approach. This parable could go either way, eh? 😃

4- ( "While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat with Jesus and his disciples. The Pharisees saw this and said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” He heard this and said, “Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do.Go and learn the meaning of the words, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.” ) Christ is stressing mercy over ritual works (sacrifice). These types of works are what Paul is addressing when he speaks of “works”. But, again… not much here on OSAS that I can see.

5- ( "Then the disciples of John approached him and said, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast (much), but your disciples do not fast?” Jesus answered them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.” ) We can see differences between John’s disciples and those of Christ - but not much on OSAS as such. I think the 2nd half will be more helpful - I just did not want to miss anything here.

God bless - end of part 1

Tom
 
Hi, Firmfoundation, (Part 2)

Here is the 2nd part.

6- ( “Hear another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, put a hedge around it, dug a wine press in it, and built a tower. Then he leased it to tenants and went on a journey. When vintage time drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to obtain his produce. But the tenants seized the servants and one they beat, another they killed, and a third they stoned. Again he sent other servants, more numerous than the first ones, but they treated them in the same way. Finally, he sent his son to them, thinking, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and acquire his inheritance.’ They seized him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What will the owner of the vineyard do to those tenants when he comes?” They answered him, “He will put those wretched men to a wretched death and lease his vineyard to other tenants who will give him the produce at the proper times.”) Here we have a glimpse - the original tenants of the vineyard were chosen - and apparently did well for a while, but did not persevere. In fact, the group became perverse - did not deliver the ‘produce’ (good works?) and then killed those sent by God. Of course, it could be argued that this group was never ‘saved’ because of whatever reason - but, mainly because we know the end of the story. Prior to them turning against God, they appeared good. But, then their works (killing the prophets and killing Christ) could easily be seen as evil. These original tenants failed to persevere in their Faith and in doing good.

7- ( "He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a person took and sowed in a field. It is the smallest of all the seeds, yet when full-grown it is the largest of plants. It becomes a large bush, and the 'birds of the sky come and dwell in its branches.” ) We see how the Church started out small and then grew through the Grace of God. But, again not much on OSAS

8- (“People do not put new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise the skins burst, the wine spills out, and the skins are ruined. Rather, they pour new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.” ) Christianity is not a ‘patch’ or ‘work-around’ for Judiaism but something going in a new direction. The faithful Jew (and Gentile) is called upon to accept Christ and obey His Commands (and that would be to believe in Him and do ‘works’).

9- ( “You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.” ) Here we have the most dramatic example of where OSAS fall short. Christ is clearly speaking to His Disciples and identifying them as both essential to life and a seasoning to enhance taste - still very much in use today. And, those with life-giving and enhancing properties now find that they have ‘lost it’. They failed to persevere in cooperating with God’s Grace to do good works by advancing the Kingdom of God and now are “…trapmledunderfoot” - and are no long part of the Kingdom. People have free will and can freely choose to deny Christ and His Commands to Love God and neighbor (back to ‘works’ again!) 😃

10- ( "And he spoke to them at length in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path, and birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky ground, where it had little soil. It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep, and when the sun rose it was scorched, and it withered for lack of roots. Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it. But some seed fell on rich soil, and produced fruit, a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold. Whoever has ears ought to hear.” ) Grace is freely given to all - Christ died for all. And, it is our job to bloom where we are planted. Seeds that were planted in good soil can die, be eaten by birds or insects and fail to produce. We have all seen seeds that had little opportunity, sprouting through concrete! Do not take this ‘good soil’ as a OSAS - there were seed-eating birds and insects back in the time of Christ, too. 😃

These parables address several issues. As previously stated, no Catholic believes, nor has it ever been a teaching of the Catholic Church, that we can 'work our way to heaven through our own efforts." The idea of ‘flesh boasting’ is really quite silly ( I am reminded of an old nursing expression of ‘proud flesh’ - the swollen tissue around a wound or ulcer) our strenght comes from Christ. But, we can still fail Him if we choose. And, that is something to consider.

God bless
 
Hey maryrev12…

What a great story! 👍 :clapping: --congrats --there is nothing like being a part of Jesus’ One Mystical Body, the Church, the One House of the Living God and the Pillar and Foundation of the only Truth that matters in the grand scheme of things.

Modern churches/denominations differ in many ways, all claiming to be Christian and to honor Jesus, all claiming to have “truth” --yet the Bible clearly illustrates that Jesus planned and built just One Church.

A few questions every non-Catholic should ask themselves, as I once did: Should Christianity be characterized by religious unity, e.g. the C.C., or by division, e.g. sola scriptura? (Jesus’ established Church and His Bible or the Bible and the church of ones choice) —does Jesus want one true church today, as He did when He built it on Kepha, the Apostles and Prophets, or should we approve of and embrace and accept the existence of many divided denominations/churches, all teaching (which by the way is a violation of the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura) --something different and unique predicated on the traditions established by their founder? —Is one church as good as another? If so, doesn’t that negate the Glory of Jesus’ One Church, His Body, His Fathers House, where the Spirit of Truth resides --“forever”? Logically speaking, how many true churches can there be in the world, if Jesus only built One? The Bible tells us:

**And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him (Jesus) as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. * If the Church is Jesus’ Mystical Body, then there can be only one church, for there is only one Christ and one truth –the “spirit of truth.”
*

Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body… Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it…That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish…For no man ever yet hated his own body; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church… This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Jesus and His Church are synonymous.

**But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. *There can be only one truth (truth is not relative) ergo there can be only one House of the Living God and one pillar and ground of the truth.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God (the Church) --And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

*And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, (kepha) and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. *

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: (not refer to your bible) but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God.

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you bishops/overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Clearly Jesus died for His established Church and anyone who belongs to it.

*And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. * Jesus is the savior of His Body, the Church; Nowhere in His Bible does it say we are saved by His Bible.

*And when they were come, and had gathered the And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. * together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily. Jesus’ Church is expanding; His Kingdom on earth is expanding; the Holy Spirit is teaching One Truth to Jesus’ One Church.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues…*
 
And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches. Truth can absolutely be found in the Bible, but it must be guarded, guided and protected by the authority of Jesus’ Church, His Mystical Body, the House of the Living God --the Pillar and Foundation of Truth —from faulty mishandling and misinterpretation; Jesus is the savior and Guardian of His Church not His Bible; His Church which collected, selected, assembled and codified/canonized everyone’s bible, is the proper guardian of His Bible! To usurp Jesus’ authority, His Church and transfer It to His Bible, or a man-made church is to remove the Holy Spirit, the guiding and protecting force behind Jesus’ Body the Church. It is to attempt to remove His Mystical Body from His Head, and we all know that is not possible. His Head and Body are still firmly in tact, and it is called the Catholic Church, and any other church, or sola scriptura, or the two combined, are sadly, not a part of Jesus’ Mystical Body, His true Church, the place where God resides through the Eucharist --the place where the only Truth that matters can be found, a place where His Bible, the truth on paper, can be read and interpreted with unity and oneness, devoid of any division, disunity or dissension!

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. The Holy Spirit is guiding the authority of His Church.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. All the churches were one; not to be confused with all the churches we see in the world today, which are not one.

For some it takes no time at all to find Jesus’ Church, the same Church the Apostles belonged to, (who are the very Foundation of Jesus’ One Church) the same Church that codified and canonized Jesus’ Bible (out of necessity due to all of the heretical sects popping up in the 2nd and 3rd century) --belonged to. --for others like you and I, the journey to truth was a bit more circuitous.

I truly believe if every Christian regardless of denomination/church affiliation, were to remove the shackles of their preconceived notions, get out of the way of the teachings and traditions of their church, as well as the teachings and Traditions of the C.C. --at least for the moment, and read their Bible through the prism of logic and reasoning, they too would come to realize that Jesus built One Church circa 33 AD, and ALL the truths regarding God spring forth from that One Church; ALL the teachings, including the Bible come from that One Church; ALL the Traditions that can be assuredly embraced, come from that One Church --that Church built by Jesus on Kepha, the Apostles and prophets with Jesus as the Divine CORNERSTONE, keeping His One Church --[Latin ecclsia, from Greek ekklsi, from ekkalein, to summon forth] --firmly united as one.

The only Church promised/guaranteed by Jesus to be in the world “forever” --“until the end of time” --the only Church that cannot fail, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat --the only church that has maintained unity and oneness and harmony --steering clear of division, discord and dissension --the ONLY Church in the world today that meets all the characteristics/ qualifications of that Church built by Jesus Christ --the only Church that can trace its lineage all the way back to that Church built By Jesus Christ circa 33 AD --Pentecost --is the Catholic Church.

“Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.”
St. Jerome :amen:
 
Hey Maryrev12 and all brothers and sisters in Christ…

Every time I read a Catholic conversion story it always makes perfect sense; every time I read a Protestant conversion story, it makes no sense…

I too visited (Edited to prevent board swarming) quite a few times and it offers nothing but a mishmash of conflicting definitions of differing doctrines, all based on the authority of the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura --and the tone can be down right tense. They provide testimonies from “ex-Roman” Catholic Priests…

They offer quotes taken from the book “Far from Rome, near to God: Testimonies of 50 converted Roman Catholic priests,” by Richard Bennet. (Edited to prevent board swarming) is trying to use these conversion stories to bolster their anti-Catholic sentiment. “They are quite interesting and valuable” in the since that they give absolutely NO insight into Catholicism from those who were once priests in the Catholic Church, and left for very inept reasons --to find Salvation in THEIR BIBLES.

Following are excerpts from only five of the fifty testimonies. The rest of them hum along with the same ineptness and deceptive like facade.

**Henry Gregory Adams – Born in Saskatchewan, Canada. He entered the Basilian Order of monks and adopted the monastic name of “Saint Hilarion the Great.” He was ordained as a priest and served five parishes in the Lemont, Alberta area. **

Sacraments – “The monastic life and the sacraments prescribed by the Roman Catholic Church did not help me to come to know Christ personally and find salvation…I realized that the man-made sacraments of my church and my good works were in vain for salvation. they lead to a false security.” (p. 3)

All 7 sacraments are found in the bible, and were believed by the early church fathers/doctors, the same people that gave him his bible; If he is going to doubt them regarding the sacraments, then why not doubt them regarding his bible. This ex-priests good works with the free grace of Christ, the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it --is necessary, according to the bible, however, on our own merits, salvation would be impossible. Good works are required, along with Christ’s saving grace. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification by Christ; we are to attach are own good works to it, just like we are to take up our own cross, knowing full well that this action of taking up our cross, without the Passion of our one and only Savior, Jesus Christ is completely worthless.

Joseph Tremblay – Born in Quebec, Canada, 1924. He was ordained a priest in Rome, Italy and was sent to Bolivia, Chile where he served for 13 years "as a missionary in the congregation of the Oblate Fathers of Mary Immaculate."

Salvation by works – "My theology has taught me that salvation is by works and sacrifices…my theology gives me no assurance of salvation…


Then you need to refer to your Catholic theology again, which clearly does not teach that salvation is attainable by works and sacrifices.

…the Bible offers me that assurance…I had been trying to save myself on my works…I was stifled in a setting in which I was pushed to do good works to merit my salvation." (pp. 9, 11-12)

If you were to read the CCC, (as a former priest one would have thought you did) --you would see that salvation is a free gift by God --that is why Jesus died on the cross for us. However good works, according to your bible are required as well; The bible speaks of faith plus works, quite often:

“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” James 2:14-17

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and **not by faith only. **James 2:24

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” James 2:20

**“He will render to each one according to his works…” **Romans 2:6-11.

“eternal life by perseverance in good works” Romans 2:8

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Either Saint Paul is guilty of hypocrisy or protestants take this out of context; I’ll opt for the latter! The point was to stress that we are ALL saved by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE, not by obeying the Mosaic Law or by any HUMAN ACTION; without Jesus’ ransom, all works would be futile, because we all fall short of the glory due to our inherent sinful nature, however that doesn’t invalidate the preceding passages --does it?

To be continued…
 
The below excerpt is from Patrick Madrid and is worth reading regarding Sola Scriptura
Sola scriptura: A Blueprint for Anarchy
by Patrick Madrid
“ … First, if “the whole counsel of God . . . is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture,” then must itself appear somewhere in Scripture, but it does not. And thus, under the terms set forth in all the classical Protestant creeds, it is a self-refuting proposition.

Second, if “those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them,” then we have another problem. What are we to do with such things “necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation” as the doctrine that the Persons of the Trinity are homoousios, that in Christ
there are two wills, the Hypostatic Union, the cessation of divine revelation upon the death of the last Apostle, the canon of Scripture, whether or not infants should be baptized, and a whole host of key issues that bear directly upon the core of the Christian faith.

Scripture alone-Scripture forced to stand apart from the infallible teaching magisterium that has been given Christ’s own authority to accurately interpret Scripture, and Sacred Tradition, which is the Church’s living interpretation of those written words is unstable and leads to the myriad of conflicting, erroneous, and sometimes spiritually fatal “human traditions” (c.f. Matt. 15:3-9; Mark 7:6-7) that lead people away from Christ.

Scripture alone, as the tragic history of Protestantism has shown, becomes the private play toy of any self-styled “exegete” who wishes to interpret God’s Word to suit his own views. The history of Protestantism, laboring under , is an unending kaleidoscope of fragmentation and splintering. It cannot provide any sort of doctrinal certitude for the Christian, because it is built on the shifting sand of mere human opinion - what the
individual pastor Scripture means.

Even Martin Luther saw the inescapable principle of fragmentation and disunity that lies at the heart of . In a letter to Urlich Zwingli, he complained bitterly about the doctrinal anarchy that was even then rampant among Protestants: “If the world lasts, it will be necessary, on account of the differing interpretations of Scripture which now exist, that to
preserve the unity of faith, we should receive the [Catholic] councils and decrees and fly to them for refuge.”

Patrick Madrid is the editor of the book, Surprised by Truth (Basilica Press, 1994), and the author of the forthcoming book Any Friend of God’s Is a Friend of Mine, due out this spring. He lives in San Diego with his wife Nancy and their eight children.

Continued at ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/SOLASCRI.TXT
 
**Bartholomew F. Brewer – He was ordained to the Roman Catholic priesthood at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary in Washington, D.C. He eventually served as a diocesan priest in San Diego, California and entered the Navy as a Roman Catholic chaplain.
**
**Upon questioning Rome’s Beliefs, "At first I did not understand, but gradually I observed a wonderful change in mother. :confused: Her influence helped me realize the importance of the Bible in determining what we believe. ** So the church helped push him away. :confused:

We all know how well sola scriptura has worked out – thousands of competing churches, all using the bible as their sole authority. If the C.C. taught the doctrine of sola scriptura, I wouldn’t be a Christian today. Also if the bible said that the bible was the **pillar and foundation of truth **and that Jesus was the savior of His bible, there wouldn’t be thousands of competing churches in a constant state of disarray. The doctrine of S.S. WOULD HAVE WORKED BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN GOD ORDAINED; It would have succeeded, as opposed to the colossal mess we see in the protestant world today, just as His Church has succeeded, because that really is where the pillar and foundation of truth can be found, according to the bible.

**We often discussed subjects such as the primacy of Peter, papal infallibility, the priesthood, infant baptism, confession, the mass, purgatory, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven. In time I realized that not only are these beliefs not in the Bible, they are actually contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture." (pp. 21-22)
**

I could touch on each of these doctrines, instead I will invalidate what he said, simply by saying: If you think these doctrines are implausible because they are not in your bible, you certainly don’t supplant them with another doctrine, that also isn’t taught in your bible, and is decisively man-made,1500 years removed from the Church established by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD.

****Relying on works. He left the Roman Catholic Church, got married and through conversations with his wife and other Christians, "I finally understood that I had been relying on my own righteousness and religious efforts and not upon the completed and sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
**
First of all, it sounds like he might of had an ulterior motive (his future wife) --second of all, no other church devotes more attention to “the completed and sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ.” His Sacrifice is the center piece of the entire Mass; everything revolves around IT. No one can hold a candle to the C.C. when it comes to remembering Jesus’ Atoning Sacrifice for ALL. (with the exception of the E.O.C.)

Not one protestant church believes what their own bible teaches, what Martin Luther actually embraced --the True Presence of Christ:

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me, after the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come."
1 Cor. 11:24-26 (KJV)

Jesus said, I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

The Jews were familiar with “eating and drinking” being used figuratively in the Old Testament. – Which is why Christ went out of His way to make it absolutely clear that He was not speaking figuratively, by saying that His flesh was real food and that His blood was real drink.

Jesus ended this teaching by revealing “the words I have spoken to you are spirit” (6:63). As with each of the seven miracles in John’s Gospel, Jesus uses the miracle to convey a spiritual truth. Here Jesus has just multiplied the loaves and fish and uses a human analogy to teach the necessity of spiritual nourishment.

I suppose the loaves and fishes were just figurative loaves and fishes then? The crowd was not literally fed?

Furthermore, the word for eat is phagein - to chew or gnaw. It is a very graphic word. Sarx, a translation of this could mean physical flesh, but is also used in the context throughout the Bible as mere human nature. (figurative) With this in mind, the passage would make no sense - since “flesh” is only used figuratively to refer to the sin-prone aspect of human nature and Jesus is not sin-prone.

Christ’s sarx, is not general, it is the sarx of a very specific incarnated individual. (not human nature) An individual whose sarx is not sin-prone! Christ is not telling the faithful to figuratively nourish themselves on sin-prone human nature. He is telling them to nourish themselves on his own life-giving flesh.

IF ANY NON-CATHOLIC CAN SUCCESSFULLY PROVE TO ME THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING SYMBOLICALLY, I WILL RENOUNCE CATHOLICISM IMMEDIATELY!!!

To be continued…**
 
Perfect… the truth you present is unrefuteable. But, they will say you play with words to confuse them, or they will simply close there minds and say the obvious- " you just don’t get it".

Or… the seed will take, and they will actually question their beliefs… lets all pray for that. If they arew sincere children of the
LORD, then they will come home eventually

Interesting that over at ( the place we are not too name.org) they do not allow any cut and paste or even referals from here!! talk about fear- they could not answer the truth, so they BANNED IT.

thanks Joe-
your sister in Christ
 
**Or… the seed will take, and they will actually question their beliefs… lets all pray for that.
**
Yup, that’s about all one can do!

Interesting that over at ( the place we are not too name.org) they do not allow any cut and paste or even referals from here!! talk about fear- they could not answer the truth, so they BANNED IT.

thanks Joe-
your sister in Christ


You are so right --very strict rules over there! Certainly they would never let me post my refutation regarding these ex-priest conversion storys; they wouldn’t even let me attempt to establish the fact that Peter comes from kepha, not petra (transliteration cephas), and that this Aramaic language is actually preserved in the N.T.; they simply said,* “you are mistaken.”* --Or that there is in fact an Aramaic and Greek word for small pebble, or pebble, which the Authors of the Bible certainly would have used (did use) --if/when applicable. It does in fact get lost in translation in the Greek language when going from petra to petros, at least to those unwilling to delve into the matter. I even explained to them that it was my integrity and love for the bible, not Catholicism, that I was trying to defend my position --to no avail --and that was the truth. I even explained that almost all prominent Protestant scholars today have jettisoned the whole petra/ petros argument as obsolete, but they removed my post and told me I violated their rules. You can be as kind-hearted as Jesus Himself but if you don’t play within the confines of their rules and regulations, you are simply kicked out. Ironically this is a complete violation of sola scriptura (Individual private interpretation of the bible) --Apparently, anything goes when it comes to the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura, unless of course you are a Catholic, or employing irrefutable logic. But, what ya gonna do? I guess all anyone can do is give it a go, get rejected, and wipe the sand from your sandals, bless 'em, and move on.👍
 
Code:
             *This is true so far as it goes, but you err here in not understanding or accepting [The Communion of Saints (MP3 Bible study link)](http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/communion_of_saints.mp3)*.
The Intercession & Communion of Saints
You forsake the commandments of God for the traditions of men.

Does that mean anything?
I don’t see how when everything that is in both of those links comes from scripture.

These teachings have been in Christianity since its beginning and are (as these links show) found right in the New Testament.

That being the case, I would posit that those who deny these teachings and are adherents to the fundamental Reformation error of Sola Scriptura are in fact those who should reconsider their beliefs in light of the fact that theirs are the the modern new winds of doctrines of men and not the Catholic Church and her teachings.

If you cannot hack the long posts then I suggest that your attention problems are possibly keeping you from studying anything that does not agree with your current faith community. One might also wonder how it is that you study the Word of God since it too is long and deals with complex themes. 🤷

BTW…if you “do not care” what we respond, I would further suggest that you are incapable of apologetic dialog and even simple religious discussion because you are too steeped in your own bias and prejudices. You might reconsider bothering to post here because you “do not care” enough to make the effort to pursue the fullness of truth no matter where the Holy Spirit might lead you.

Many devout and faithful Catholics have spent their precious time and energy to make a case that you can understand and if you “do not care” enough to make an equal effort then perhaps you need to spare us your faith sharing efforts.:bible1:
 
You are so right --very strict rules over there! Certainly they would never let me post my refutation regarding these ex-priest conversion storys; they wouldn’t even let me attempt to establish the fact that Peter comes from kepha, not petra (transliteration cephas), and that this Aramaic language is actually preserved in the N.T.; they simply said,* “you are mistaken.”*
–Or that there is in fact an Aramaic and Greek word for small pebble, or pebble, which the Authors of the Bible certainly would have used (did use) --if/when applicable. It does in fact get lost in translation in the Greek language when going from petra to petros, at least to those unwilling to delve into the matter. I even explained to them that it was my integrity and love for the bible, not Catholicism, that I was trying to defend my position --to no avail --and that was the truth. I even explained that almost all prominent Protestant scholars today have jettisoned the whole petra/ petros argument as obsolete, but they removed my post and told me I violated their rules. You can be as kind-hearted as Jesus Himself but if you don’t play within the confines of their rules and regulations, you are simply kicked out. Ironically this is a complete violation of sola scriptura (Individual private interpretation of the bible) --Apparently, anything goes when it comes to the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura, unless of course you are a Catholic, or employing irrefutable logic. But, what ya gonna do? I guess all anyone can do is give it a go, get rejected, and wipe the sand from your sandals, bless 'em, and move on.:thumbsup:I have said it before and I’ll say it again. That is why I do not post on those kinds of forums any more.

I feel that in posting there we unwisely support their “ministries” by giving them Catholics to argue with. (Let them dry up from lack of Catholic participants) I have left all of those forums and will not post there. It is my opinion that we all should just quietly walk out and not return and never post there again. Let them witness the deafening silence that falls when they can only sit around and argue among themselves.

When I first did this on one a-C forum, I checked in to see what was posted during the following 2 weeks and it was funny to see them posting like bullying children who suddenly find themselves with no playmates and whining about it.

“I have no one to play with…” :crying::crying::crying:

They have heard the truth, now obey the Lord and knock the dust from your sandals and let Him deal with them.

Luke 9:5
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off even the dust of your feet, for a testimony against them.


Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
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