The Chosen People

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Oh, and by the way, during a long and distinguished military career, followed by a career in social services, I have trained, fought and worked alongside people of every single color creed and denomination, many christians of every hue, many non believers. And yet, I have never heard anyone, ever, refer to Jesus as being ‘‘produced’’.

OneTrueCathApos gets the award for the most disrespectful, disgraceful and downright ignorant remark I have ever heard regarding the birth of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ.
And you get the award for the most anti-Catholic person ever to arrive on these forums. And I still stand at what I said. Perhaps you should speak to Scholarly people on this and they will agree with me. Christ was PRODUCED to the Jews to lead them to US, the Gentiles. But then again:
TO BE DEEP IN HISTORY, IS TO CEASE TO BE PROTESTANT.
 
Oh, and by the way, during a long and distinguished military career, followed by a career in social services, I have trained, fought and worked alongside people of every single color creed and denomination, many christians of every hue, many non believers. And yet, I have never heard anyone, ever, refer to Jesus as being ‘‘produced’’.

OneTrueCathApos gets the award for the most disrespectful, disgraceful and downright ignorant remark I have ever heard regarding the birth of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ.
My, my, such “charity”. Didn’t you just speak about this earlier? If my remark that Christ was produced by the Jews to lead them to us was ignorant to you as you say, than Jesus is also ignorant as well. 🙂 Have a great night as I
must head out.
 
And you get the award for the most anti-Catholic person ever to arrive on these forums. And I still stand at what I said. Perhaps you should speak to Scholarly people on this and they will agree with me. Christ was PRODUCED to the Jews to lead them to US, the Gentiles. But then again:
TO BE DEEP IN HISTORY, IS TO CEASE TO BE PROTESTANT.
You said, and I quote, claiming it was in scripture:
Originally Posted by OneTrueCathApos
Jesus was produced to be led to the Gentiles.
Read it again. Jesus was produced to be led to the Jews. That is what you said. Now, for the fifth time, chapter and verse please. 👍 I’ll help you out again - you won’t find it 😉

As for the rest of your post regarding being deep in history :shock:

:juggle::juggle:

Did you read those links I gave you to your own catholic churchs history written by catholic authors :rolleyes:

Interesting huh??? :D:D

Oh, I nearly forgot - here’s something from EWTN to read about why Jesus came

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/JESUS2.TXT

And don’t forget to read your catechism. Here’s some of what it has to say on the matter:

The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world,” and “he was revealed to take away sins”:70

Nowhere will you read Jesus came to lead the Jews to the Gentiles :rotfl:

Can you please check your magic cloak of knowledge - it definately says ‘‘catholic’’ right??

I’d take it back to the store if I were you !!!
 
CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code:
 This continual attempt to charge those who criticize the Israeli government and policies with anti-Semitism is simple slander and libel. It has been very successful, sadly, in squelching those who hesitate to speak up for fear of retaliation. Am I anti-Black because I criticize the govenment of Zimbabwe? Am I anti-Arab because I criticize the policies of Saudi Arabia? Am I anti-Asian because I speak out against policies of China and North Korea? Am I anti-American when I oppose some policies of the USA? And we could go on and on.

  You quote Dr. King. I happened to know Dr. King personally, and in fact twice went to jail early in the civil rights movement. A long story which may not be relevant here. What I can say is that Dr. King was increasingly concerned about the injustice directed against the Palestinian people. Yes, he had sympathy for Israel, as we all do. The Jews suffered enormously at the hands of Europeans, and we hailed the creation of Israel. My first doubts came in 1956 when the Israelis invaded Egypt. Thanks to President Eisenhower they soon withdrew. Frankly, Jewish participation and Jewish money were very important in the struggle for civil rights, This had considerable influence on Dr. King as it does today on most national politicians who dare not defy the AIPAC and other segments of the Israeli lobby.

    Fortunately, more and more American Jews are coming to realize that Israeli policies are unjust and self-defeating. How can any fair-minded person defend the continual grab of Palestinian land on the West Bank with special roads for Jews only? It's an outrage. American public opinion will some day turn, and Israel has only so long to devise a more compassionate policy, else it will find itself alone. 

     There are no Chosen People. God is no respecter of persons, as the scriptures tell us. There is no chosen church, either. This kind of arrogance is an enemy of unity and good will. We are all God's children, trying our best to understand this mammoth and mysterious universe. I'm sure the Lord smiles upon our efforts but is annoyed far more by pious pretensions than any mistakes we might make in matters of theology. Too many modern-day Jews, Christians and Muslims act like the Pharisees who were quite convinced that their way was the one and only correct way. There are many paths to the one true God. And we are saved by grace and not by theology or church affiliation.

   May God bless the whole world - no exceptions.
 
Please forgive me if i am repeating anything someone has already posted as I did not read all 10 pages.

The OP wanted to know why the persecution of Jews all these centuries.

First it is a given that the jews were , and remain, God’s Chosen to bring the Law to the world. And then He chose them to have the Word made Flesh. So that the Gates of Heaven would be opened, and sin may be forgiven. The Lamb of God is the final blood sacrifice.
It is easy for us to say that we are the Bride of Christ . But, read Scripture, and it tells you that the Jews are to be the wife of God( the Father). Did you know that? That is how important they are to Him.

But, for His purpose, some have been blinded to Messiah, until the end of times.

But why so much horror done to them? From the beginning, according to Holy Scripture (Old testiment) they have been a stiff necked people, who once were almost wiped out if not for Moses argueing with God on their behalf. They wanted to go back to Egypt and remain slaves! And many turned away from God.

But God has remained faithful to them. God does not break Covenant. even the disporia was written that it would happen.

Why? All this so that, on the day of God’s choosing, He will do something so mighty for His people Israel, so that they will know that “I AM their God and they are my people” .

The whole world will know.

God has His ways and does what is His Will at His timing. We are so blessed to have been grafted into the Olive Tree.

remember, He will come again in Glory. And the Jews will have Messiah.
 
CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code:
 This continual attempt to charge those who criticize the Israeli government and policies with anti-Semitism is simple slander and libel. It has been very successful, sadly, in squelching those who hesitate to speak up for fear of retaliation. Am I anti-Black because I criticize the govenment of Zimbabwe? Am I anti-Arab because I criticize the policies of Saudi Arabia? Am I anti-Asian because I speak out against policies of China and North Korea? Am I anti-American when I oppose some policies of the USA? And we could go on and on.

  You quote Dr. King. I happened to know Dr. King personally, and in fact twice went to jail early in the civil rights movement. A long story which may not be relevant here. What I can say is that Dr. King was increasingly concerned about the injustice directed against the Palestinian people. Yes, he had sympathy for Israel, as we all do. The Jews suffered enormously at the hands of Europeans, and we hailed the creation of Israel. My first doubts came in 1956 when the Israelis invaded Egypt. Thanks to President Eisenhower they soon withdrew. Frankly, Jewish participation and Jewish money were very important in the struggle for civil rights, This had considerable influence on Dr. King as it does today on most national politicians who dare not defy the AIPAC and other segments of the Israeli lobby.

    Fortunately, more and more American Jews are coming to realize that Israeli policies are unjust and self-defeating. How can any fair-minded person defend the continual grab of Palestinian land on the West Bank with special roads for Jews only? It's an outrage. American public opinion will some day turn, and Israel has only so long to devise a more compassionate policy, else it will find itself alone. 

     There are no Chosen People. God is no respecter of persons, as the scriptures tell us. There is no chosen church, either. This kind of arrogance is an enemy of unity and good will. We are all God's children, trying our best to understand this mammoth and mysterious universe. I'm sure the Lord smiles upon our efforts but is annoyed far more by pious pretensions than any mistakes we might make in matters of theology. Too many modern-day Jews, Christians and Muslims act like the Pharisees who were quite convinced that their way was the one and only correct way. There are many paths to the one true God. And we are saved by grace and not by theology or church affiliation.

   May God bless the whole world - no exceptions.
Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"
  • Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
    ". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely ‘anti-Zionist.’ And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God’s green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews–this is God’s own truth.
    "Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested–DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God’s promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just ‘anti-Zionist’!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled–as others have been–into thinking you can be ‘anti-Zionist’ and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews–make no mistake about it."

From M.L. King Jr., “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend,” Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., “This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.”
 
Oh, and by the way, during a long and distinguished military career, followed by a career in social services, I have trained, fought and worked alongside people of every single color creed and denomination, many christians of every hue, many non believers. And yet, I have never heard anyone, ever, refer to Jesus as being ‘‘produced’’.

OneTrueCathApos gets the award for the most disrespectful, disgraceful and downright ignorant remark I have ever heard regarding the birth of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ.
Then please accept my sincere apology, I mis-read and mis-understood. You are correct in your assertion and I agree with you 100%. OneTrueCathApos has made a very serious
error.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Once again I will put my two cents worth in this discussion of the Chosen People.

All Jews are still God’s chosen people. They were the only nation to recognize God
as the One Supreme Being and Creator of the universe. As such, they were chosen by God to carry out His plan and He made an everlasting covenant with them which
is still in effect even though they have turned their backs on Him many times, He
forgave the each time. God does not go back on His word. So, if you still disagree, then as I’ve said before, go argue with God and tell Him where He is wrong.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
All Jews are still God’s chosen people. They were the only nation to recognize God as the One Supreme Being and Creator of the universe. As such, they were chosen by God to carry out His plan and He made an everlasting covenant with them which is still in effect even though they have turned their backs on Him many times, He forgave the each time. God does not go back on His word.
What is the evidence that the Mosaic Covenant was an “everlasting” covenant as opposed to one conditioned on performance? The fact that God might keep his end in the face of Israel’s transgressions does not imply that it is everlasting.

I might make an agreement with you and ignore your first 100 violations of that agreement but on the 101’s violation I give up and consider the agreement to be broken.
 
What is the evidence that the Mosaic Covenant was an “everlasting” covenant as opposed to one conditioned on performance? The fact that God might keep his end in the face of Israel’s transgressions does not imply that it is everlasting.

I might make an agreement with you and ignore your first 100 violations of that agreement but on the 101’s violation I give up and consider the agreement to be broken.
Don’t tell me, tell God.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code:
You can continue to assert that criticism of Israel and its policies is anti-Semitism. That is ridiculous, and if you don't see that there is no purpose in further dialogue. Did you feel that criticism of Germany under Hitler was anti-German? That to criticize Italy under Mussolini was anti-Italian? That to criticize Spain under Franco was anti-Spanish? That to criticize the USSR under Stalin was anti-Russian?

 Do you think that Dr. King and I and millions of others were anti-American because we critized policies of the US government?

 There are and continue to be anti-Semites, of course. But this label is constantly attached to Israeli critics indiscriminately to keep them intimidated, and it has worked. My Reform rabbi friend has been listed as a self-hating Jew on one web site because he has issues with the Israeli government.  Is it fair and democratic to squash free speech by slandering people who want to exercise it? He is a Zionist, was once president (I believe) of some national young Zionist organization, and loves Israel. He is, however, disillusioned and humiliated by Israeli policies that ruthlessly suppress Palestinians, and he has refused to support the Sharons and the Netanyahus.

  Again, I knew and worked with Dr. King and he became increasingly sensitive to the sufferings of the Palestinians. Had he lived longer I'm sure he would have said so, as he came out against the war in Vietnam one year to the day before he was assassinated. 

  There are no chosen people! I could not for a moment believe in a God who would choose one group over the rest, however one wants to define chosen. Remember how the priest and the Levite bypassed the man dying by the wayside. It was a despised Samaritan, whose people had intermarried and abandoned traditional Judaism, who is the hero of Jesus' parable.
 
**No, it is absolutely not disrespectful in any way because you people ALL know exactly what I am saying.
My bible teacher, who is a Scholar, who has numerous degrees in the faith has also agreed with me. That produced means born, that you people know exactly what I mean. I will stand by what I say and I am so over this. It is you people that need to understand this. I know He is the only begotten son of the Father, and you all know this is what I meant. period. **
 
No, it is absolutely not disrespectful in any way because you people ALL know exactly what I am saying.

No, you see, if you’re going to be an apologist, you need to be very clear about what you are saying. You can’t say one thing, and just assume anyone reading will somehow just know that you meant something else. What you say must convey what you mean. You cant leave it to the reader to guess what you meant.
OneTrueCathApos;5435024:
My bible teacher, who is a Scholar, who has numerous degrees in the faith has also agreed with me.
Thats nice :rolleyes:
I will stand by what I say and I am so over this. It is you people that need to understand this.
Sounds like it :rolleyes: Excellent approach to catholic apologetics by the way :rolleyes:

Now, there’s two versions of the following that you wrote and you claim is in scripture:

first you claim** Jesus was produced to be led to the gentiles**.

then you claim Christ was PRODUCED to the Jews to lead them to US, the Gentiles

So, which is it, and what did you really mean :confused: :rolleyes: Because I cant find a word in scripture, and you claim it is in scripture, that Jesus came to bring the jews to the gentiles.
 
**No, it is absolutely not disrespectful in any way because you people ALL know exactly what I am saying.
My bible teacher, who is a Scholar, who has numerous degrees in the faith has also agreed with me. That produced means born, that you people know exactly what I mean. I will stand by what I say and I am so over this. It is you people that need to understand this. I know He is the only begotten son of the Father, and you all know this is what I meant. period. **
Is you bible teacher a theologian? If so, then he should know that using the word produced is disrespectful of Jesus and is not in accord with Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church never has, nor ever will, use the word produce to refer to Jesus. Please re-read the Church’s catechism.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Bubba

When God and Abraham had their little meeting, you know the one with the split animals, well, that is a blood covenant. if you do a bit of research, you will understand that a blood covenant is not to be broken. God even says that , even if the Jews break that covenant, God Himself WILL remain faithful to it. Their inheritanece is forever. God does not lie.

And this is why it was so important for Jesus to shed blood. He was the Lamb of God. All those animal scarifices for the atonement of sin were blood covenants. God would cover the sins of the Jews with animal blood and those sins were forgiven. Jesus, being the perfect Lamb, had to shed His Blood for the new and everlasting covenant.

And if you remember, Abrahman was to take his son up the mountain and kill him as a sacrifice to God ( the “type” fore-shadowing Christ). This too, was to be a blood covenant.
But when Issac asked where was the ram to sacrifice, Abraham answered that “God would provide a Lamb”. Note the father said lamb, not the ram tied to the bush as shown by the angel. That was prophecy.

:Begin to understand the importance of such blood covenants. Matter of fact, go back to Eden and look at Adam and Eve . When God came into the garden, after they sinned, asking "where are you?’ now, God wasn’t really asking, He knew already.People always think God was screaming in anger. But, was He not asking, maybe just a little sad and hurt that He has do this.Just like a Daddy, looking for His children who had done bad and now, for thier own sake, so they will remember the rules, they must be punished.

And what does He do? He does the first kill, the first shedding of blood. He covered(again that word) them with the skins and gave them meat for survival until they could provide for themsleves , under thier own labor. That, my friend, was the first blood covenant.

Even Passover was a blood covenant. The animal blood on the door was placed so that the Jews’ first-born would not die.

Blood covenants were of God’s making. They are forever.

And This Blood is why Holy Communion is so vital that we accept Jesus Word that the wine is indeed His Blood.

We have Messiah. Everything now points to Jerusalem. All of history, past and future, points to His Second coming and to Jerusalem. All so that God can remain faithful to His Chosen because of that Blood Covenant. And we , Chrsitians, were grafted into that Blood Covenant by the shed Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

One Covenant does not eliminate the other. Each suceeding one magnified the next.
 
Doxiemom, thanks for dropping in. Hopefully we can have an interesting discussion between the name calling.
When God and Abraham had their little meeting, you know the one with the split animals, well, that is a blood covenant. if you do a bit of research, you will understand that a blood covenant is not to be broken. God even says that , even if the Jews break that covenant, God Himself WILL remain faithful to it. Their inheritanece is forever. God does not lie.
So what are the elements of this coveneant?

In this covenant, God promised many things to Abraham. He personally promised that He would make Abraham’s name great (Genesis 12:2), that Abraham would have numerous physical descendents (Genesis 13:16), and that he would be the father of a multitude of nations (Genesis 17:4-5). God also made promises regarding a nation called Israel. In fact, the geographical boundaries of the Abrahamic Covenant are laid out on more than one occasion in the book of Genesis (12:7; 13:14-15; 15:18-21). Another provision in the Abrahamic covenant is that the families of the world will be blessed through the physical line of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 22:18). This is a reference to the Messiah, who would come from the line of Abraham.

Now, in view of the context of our discussion, one must ask: What part of this covenant is not fulfilled by Christianity? The most interesting and relevant is the “numerous physical descendents” and “father of a multitude of nations” which is fulfilled not only in the theological sense that Judaism is the root of Christianity but also in the literal sense that Jewish Christians undoubtedly intermarried with gentile Christians so that almost anyone (in the west anyway) could claim Abrahamic ancestry.

Note, however, that the breach of a blood covenant does have consequences. Traditionally, very bad things happen to the party who breaks a blood covenant.

In this case, my question was directed toward the Mosaic covenant which was not a blood covenant.

For an example of a broken covenant, see the first covenant, the Adamic covenant. God granted Adam and Eve dominions over the Garden of Eden, save for the Tree of Life. You know the rest of the story.
And this is why it was so important for Jesus to shed blood. He was the Lamb of God. All those animal scarifices for the atonement of sin were blood covenants. God would cover the sins of the Jews with animal blood and those sins were forgiven. Jesus, being the perfect Lamb, had to shed His Blood for the new and everlasting covenant.
Of course, for Christians, this is an explanation of the end of the Jerusalem Temple. But this is much more complicated for Jews. I’m debating this issue in another thread (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=311165).
We have Messiah. Everything now points to Jerusalem. All of history, past and future, points to His Second coming and to Jerusalem. All so that God can remain faithful to His Chosen because of that Blood Covenant. And we , Chrsitians, were grafted into that Blood Covenant by the shed Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You will find throughout the OT various references to people being “cut out”. God threatened to do this to Israel when they built the Golden Calf. So it is not accurate to interpret even the blood covenant as being something that each individual can claim irrespective of his own choices.

I happen to be one of those who is skeptical of eternal hell but even I expect divine justice of some form. The question, then, is whether those we today call “Jews” are inside our outside the covenant. My guess is that rejecting Jesus as Messiah, at a minimum, places them outside.

And if they are outside, then the question then is what is necessary for them to come back into the covenant. The conventional answer is that they must become Catholic.

But show me a fourth or even third generation Jewish Catholic. Becoming Catholic inevitably means assimilating into a predominantly gentile blood and losing those pracitices that distinguished Jews and gentiles just as the 1C Jewish Chrisitans did.

Thus my earlier claim: the Jews were chosen to reject the Messiah. I’m half serious (at least).
One Covenant does not eliminate the other. Each suceeding one magnified the next.
It’s much more complicated than that. See the article referenced a while back which addressed some of these complexities.
 
Dear Bubba, I am sorry if it came across that I was name calling. But, well, your name is Bubba, after all. I could not help it. Well, i could have tried manybe a teeny bit more hard.

I am also sure, now that you answered me. that you know far more than me. This is our
first encounter.

Anyways, I am not a scholar so I tend to understand items in everday language, but i do try to understand Scripture and the catholic catichism as best as I can. And i post that way and i make mistakes. I am always willing to listen and have even(gasp! of all things) changed my mind over to the other’s arguments.

What is missing? As you asked?

First, I’d say that the fulliment of the prophesies concerning the People Israel have not been completed. I look at it this way: if a person accepts Jesus as Christ, then you must accept all that was Written about Him and all that is Written that is to come concernig Him. The future of jerusalem, and the People Israel, are still intimately tied to Jesus and the fulliment of prophecy. Scripture is either Truth or it is a lie. Not just a little truth, or a little lie.

yes, you can argue that , let us say, Revelation, is about the “catholic” church. yes, it is. And as you noted, things are much more complicated than that. Often prophecy relates to more than one event. Want to know what God is going to do? look to what He has done. He never changes. I have heard it said, and I think it is very true, that the New testiment is really the Old testiment fullfilled. I have also been told that all you really have to do is look at genesis. it is all in there. “The Shedding of innocent blood” that cries out to the Lord God, now, that, friend, can be said of all those jews who have been kept blinded, in each generation, to suit God’s purpose for them. Until all the world has been preached the Gosple of Jesus Christ so that He may Come again. When we complete that great commision, it will happen. Whether you are pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or no-trib, he is Coming.

“forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do” imples, to me, that the Jews . who could not see Him for Who He was( so that the gentiles’ sin could be forgiven) was a statement by Christ that the Old Blood covenant stands.

The catholic Church leans to an amilliniel view, but , as I understand, it gives some credence to the other “trib” or’ rapture" views. A catholic can accept a pre-tribulation rapture . And the coming fulliment of prophecy concerning Jerusalem. And the Jews, who have yet to see Him that they Pierced and mourn for their Brother.

Ya just about depeleted my entire stored up "knowledge’ such as it is.
 
CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code:
You can continue to assert that criticism of Israel and its policies is anti-Semitism. That is ridiculous, and if you don't see that there is no purpose in further dialogue. Did you feel that criticism of Germany under Hitler was anti-German? That to criticize Italy under Mussolini was anti-Italian? That to criticize Spain under Franco was anti-Spanish? That to criticize the USSR under Stalin was anti-Russian?

 Do you think that Dr. King and I and millions of others were anti-American because we critized policies of the US government?

 There are and continue to be anti-Semites, of course. But this label is constantly attached to Israeli critics indiscriminately to keep them intimidated, and it has worked. My Reform rabbi friend has been listed as a self-hating Jew on one web site because he has issues with the Israeli government.  Is it fair and democratic to squash free speech by slandering people who want to exercise it? He is a Zionist, was once president (I believe) of some national young Zionist organization, and loves Israel. He is, however, disillusioned and humiliated by Israeli policies that ruthlessly suppress Palestinians, and he has refused to support the Sharons and the Netanyahus.

  Again, I knew and worked with Dr. King and he became increasingly sensitive to the sufferings of the Palestinians. Had he lived longer I'm sure he would have said so, as he came out against the war in Vietnam one year to the day before he was assassinated. 

  There are no chosen people! I could not for a moment believe in a God who would choose one group over the rest, however one wants to define chosen. Remember how the priest and the Levite bypassed the man dying by the wayside. It was a despised Samaritan, whose people had intermarried and abandoned traditional Judaism, who is the hero of Jesus' parable.
Please read this slowly and repeatedly until you begin to understand. Of course there are no “chosen people” in the matter to which you refer as one group chosen over the rest. That concept of some sort of superior group has no basis in Judaism. Judaism teaches that it is easier for the Gentile to get to the world to come than for the Jew. Judaism teaches that we are all descended from a single father Adam so that no one can claim to be superior. Ideas such as only people who believe what I believe can find salvation or get to the world to come or can prevent themselves from going to Hell are not part of Judaism. They are believed by many Catholic posters here concerning non Catholics including Jews. I am sick and tired of having to refute your anti-Semitic comment that there are no “chosen people” when the concept, in the manner which you mean, is a Gentile anti-Jewish one.

As a Judge in a free and democratic country I spend every day defending free speech. When the movie “Jenin Jenin” came out with its horrific lie that there was a massacre of the local Arab population in Jenin (when in fact not only was there not a massacre of the local population but many Israeli soldiers died in the fighting rather than cause needless civilian casualties) the Israeli Supreme Court upheld the distribution and screening of the movie with zero censorship of any kind.

I find it ironic as a veteran of the first Israeli - Lebanon war who did five reserve tours defending and giving medical services to the local Christian population to save them from being massacred by Arafat and the PLO that you are so anti-Israel and so pro PLO.

As a Sgan Aluf (Lt. Col) in the IDF (res.) I can assure you that Palestinians (Palestine being the name that Hadrian gave to our country as punishment in 135 c.e. half a millennium before the first Arabs invaded our country and over a millennium since we lived here- I assume that you are referring to Arab Palestinians whom rightfully should be called “Falastinians” since they have no letter “P” to even pronounce the word Palestine) are not being “ruthlessly suppressed”

I suggest you examine how in the early 1990’s Bethlehem prospered under Israel rule with a majority Christian population and what happened to the Christians there when it came under “Palestinian Authority” rule.

I suggest you read the charter of the PLO and the Hamas charter if you want to learn about racism and apartheid and all the other things that ironically you and others like you accuse Israel.

Israelis and non Israelis are free to criticize Israel. That is the meaning of a democracy. I take umbrage with those who criticize Israel because of their problems with Jews and Judaism.

(Here’s something else that is really not funny- every Jew must thank God for Israel every day - ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3745700,00.html)
 
Dear Bubba, I am sorry if it came across that I was name calling. But, well, your name is Bubba, after all. I could not help it. Well, i could have tried manybe a teeny bit more hard.
Sorry, I wasn’t implicating you (or myself as victim) but alluding to the very many posts in this thread with no actual argument. Never mind.
I am also sure, now that you answered me. that you know far more than me. This is our first encounter.
Not necessarily, but I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. (I have argued both sides, see my thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=300093 where I argued for replacing replacement theology.
First, I’d say that the fulliment of the prophesies concerning the People Israel have not been completed.
This is a possibility that I have found most interesting. I am certainly willing to entertain it. However, I think that it is not exaclty an orthodox Catholic position. And if you want to entertain heresy, you might consider the possibility that Paul messed up in taking the Gospel to the gentiles before the Jews had been converted. This, also, is an interesting possibility.
I look at it this way: if a person accepts Jesus as Christ, then you must accept all that was Written about Him and all that is Written that is to come concernig Him. The future of jerusalem, and the People Israel, are still intimately tied to Jesus and the fulliment of prophecy. Scripture is either Truth or it is a lie. Not just a little truth, or a little lie.
Right, but who are the people of Israel? Replacement theory says that the Church is (now). And, further, that Jerusalem is metaphorical for the ressurected world, not the literal city.
yes, you can argue that , let us say, Revelation, is about the “catholic” church. yes, it is. And as you noted, things are much more complicated than that. Often prophecy relates to more than one event. Want to know what God is going to do? look to what He has done. He never changes. I have heard it said, and I think it is very true, that the New testiment is really the Old testiment fullfilled. I have also been told that all you really have to do is look at genesis. it is all in there. “The Shedding of innocent blood” that cries out to the Lord God, now, that, friend, can be said of all those jews who have been kept blinded, in each generation, to suit God’s purpose for them. Until all the world has been preached the Gosple of Jesus Christ so that He may Come again. When we complete that great commision, it will happen. Whether you are pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or no-trib, he is Coming.
Well, sure, but I am always suspicious of interpretations that rest too heavily on Revelations. It’s really very crytpic and people read a lot into it. I think we can say, generally, that there there will be a final restoration and remaking of creation some day (perhaps not even some day in our concept of time but rather in a remade universe after ours expands into cold death).
“forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do” imples, to me, that the Jews . who could not see Him for Who He was( so that the gentiles’ sin could be forgiven) was a statement by Christ that the Old Blood covenant stands. The catholic Church leans to an amilliniel view, but , as I understand, it gives some credence to the other “trib” or’ rapture" views. A catholic can accept a pre-tribulation rapture . And the coming fulliment of prophecy concerning Jerusalem. And the Jews, who have yet to see Him that they Pierced and mourn for their Brother. Ya just about depeleted my entire stored up "knowledge’ such as it is.
Millinialism was the orthodox view of the early church. I’m not sure when that changed but the CC is very conflicted on this. On the one hand, you have the very official belief in the ressurection of the dead (which is but the tip of an iceberg of concepts). On the other hand, you have the very general embrace of the opposing Platonic view of a disembodied heaven. Ask most Catholics (or Christians for that matter) what happens to them after they die and they will tell you they leave their body behind and go to heaven. That’s not from the Bible and it’s not from tradition. That’s from the Greeks.

If, on the other hand, we entertain the possibility that there will be a remaking of creation (a more perfect creation without death but still with physical bodies) then we get an entirely different picture. And if we go down that path then the idea of a physical Jerusalem is not so absurd. And if we have a physical Jerusalem, why not literal Jews?

But even granting all that, we still have the problem that the way that Christianity developed with the rejection of Judaizing, and this is described in Acts, Christianity is death to the Mosaic Law. Insofar as Judaism is defined by the Mosaic Law the two are incompatible. Either the apostles screwed up or the Mosaic Covenant has been broken.
 
As a Judge in a free and democratic country I spend every day defending free speech.
In Israel, I presume?

What, in your professional opinion, are the legal impediments to the reconstruction of the Temple of Jerusalem?

What, in your opinion, are the political impediments to the resumption of animal sacrifices at a reconstructed Temple?

I ask because it is my impression that the modern state Israel has no interest in rebuilding the Temple and has, in fact, made promises not to disturb the Mosque that sits on the temple mount.

Also, I have never met a Jew who was keen on the idea of resuming animal sacrifices though I know that there are a handful thinking about it seriously.
 
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