The Church Fathers...

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That’s elementary church history. Perhaps you should brush up before you just dive right in.
The Orthodox Church never interested me before the outrageaous claims they made (that they never changed and that they are in perfect harmony…I guess that lie’s been thrown out).

Besides, why bother myself with “other” Churches? It’s going to take me a lifetime just to learn Christianity.
 
As posted previously:

St. Meletius of Antioch, St. Gregory Nazianzus, St. Flavian of Antioch, etc.
Those are Catholic Church Fathers.

Not Orthodox Church Fathers.

All were members of The Catholic Church
(not The Orthodox Church).

Proof, they were Catholic with allegiances to Rome?

The years they lived.

5th Century.

👍

All Church Fathers prior to the 11th century are Catholic Church Fathers (not Othodox Church Fathers).

That is, unless you can find a Church Father that says that they were members of The Orthodox Church (and not The Catholic Church).
 
The addition of Filioque was orignally perpetrated by the Visigoths in the forth council of Toledo in 636. But the orthodox popes of Rome (especially Pope Leo III) always condemned the addition until 1014. In 1014, Pope Benedict VIII, under pressure from the Germans of the “holy roman” empire, changed the Nicene Creed by adding Filioque to the Creed in Rome. After one generation, in 1054, Rome and rest of the Catholic Church mutually excommunicated each other.
What takes precedence?

The Apostles Creed of The First Century?

Or the Nicene Creed of The 4th Century?

When do 5th Century Christians (be they Popes or popes) supercede The Apostles of Christ? :confused:
 
I have wondered why there is so much division between Catholics and Orthodox over the addition of the “Filioque” when the bible has instances of equating the Spirit to Christ, as in Philippians 2:1-13, Romans 8:10, Colossians 1:28 and 1 Peter 1:11. But perhaps this is a subject for another thread…
 
At this time we have all the church Fathers under the Catholic church for the next 1500 yrs.

The saints during this time wrote about the authority of the Chair of Peter ( the Pope) (WHERE THE BISHOP OF ROME IS, THERE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Now many schisms broke out among the magestarium and religious, who were excommunicated from teaching in error, some recanted others did not and many of there heretical teachings died out, and have surfaced in and out of history.

** Its important for Christians to learn about the early Church Fathers, because they denounced heretical christian teachings that many ** non Catholic christian churches in the U.S today, are teaching these heretical christian teachings again from the past., that the early Catholic Christian Church denounced.

I dont think there is any doubt or question of the (Catholic) early church Fathers. I believe its what they taught, that today non-Catholic christians dont know. Many are being mislead from the Vine of Truth. Many will find that What the early Church Fathers taught, has not changed today in the Roman Catholic Church.

For Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is the same yesterday, today and forever more.
As I’ve come to learn lately, some of those that were excommunicated actually started their own Churches.

Well, they were the same Churches, but they just changed the terms and introduced new terms that never existed into their sects of Christiantiy before they were forced out of The Church.

I’ve yet to see a Catholic Church Father that has recognized any Church outside of The Catholic Church.

In fact, I’ve only seen those men known as The Church Fathers to vehemently defend The Catholic Church against all those dessenters and schismers.

“One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic” Church.

One, being united.
Holy, started by Jesus.
Catholic, not based on any nationality or ethnicity or race.
Apostolic, founded by “The” Apostle chosen by Christ, Peter.

I don’t see any other words there.

I don’t see any other Church there but the only Church that existed when that phrase was created by The Apostles themselves.

It doesn’t say “One, Holy, Catholic and Nicean”.
 
I have wondered why there is so much division between Catholics and Orthodox over the addition of the “Filioque” when the bible has instances of equating the Spirit to Christ, as in Philippians 2:1-13, Romans 8:10, Colossians 1:28 and 1 Peter 1:11. But perhaps this is a subject for another thread…
Rocky, you start it, I’ll get to Googling, and we’ll see what we could dig up…by the way, great point.👍
 
Those are Catholic Church Fathers.

Not Orthodox Church Fathers.

All were members of The Catholic Church
(not The Orthodox Church).
They were members of the Catholic Church.

But not the Ultrmontanist church. Rome did not recognize any of them.
Proof, they were Catholic with allegiances to Rome?
The years they lived.
Begging the question. The facts of history show otherwise.
All Church Fathers prior to the 11th century are Catholic Church Fathers (not Othodox Church Fathers).
Ditto.
That is, unless you can find a Church Father that says that they were members of The Orthodox Church (and not The Catholic Church).
Comment on the posted excerpts from the Sixth Ecumenical Council first.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215445&page=35
 
=Isa Almisry;3283424]
But not the Ultrmontanist church. Rome did not recognize any of them.
Funny, but not only were they canonized by The Church, but one is even a “Doctor of The Church”.
Begging the question. The facts of history show otherwise.
Let’s see…No other Christian Church existed “but” The Catholic Church when they were around. They were Catholic Church members. I think that’s sufficient to believe that they were loyal to only The Catholic Church especially since they defended it so well.
.

:hug1:
Comment on the posted excerpts from the Sixth Ecumenical Council first.
:confused:
 
No where there does it state that there was ever a Church named The Orthodox Catholic Church. It says that that Eastern Church was called “Orthodox”
How **“Orthodox” became the proper name of the Eastern Church **it is difficult to say. It was used at first, long before the schism of Photius, especially in the East, not with any idea of opposition against the West, but rather as the antithesis to the Eastern heretics — Nestorians and Monophysites. Gradually, although of course, both East and West always claimed both names, “Catholic” became the most common name for the original Church in the West, “Orthodox” in the East. New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

Do you know what a proper name is? I’m not trying to humiliate you but I don’t think that you do. A proper is a name applied to a particular person, place, or thing. Instead of man, you are called 2ndGen. 2ndGen is your proper name. Instead of forum we are discussing this on the Catholic Answers Forum. And instead of church, “‘Orthodox’ (notice the capital O) became the **proper name **of the Eastern Church… long before the schism of Photius”

Do you get it?

Fallacy. Equivocation. 2ndGen is grasping at straws to prove that a proper name of a church denotes a quality of that church. But that is fallacious because labels often are falsely appiled. “The Churches of God” and “Churches of Christ” are actually more ancient proper names than “Catholic Church” but nobody here accepts that the title actually denotes that those communities are “Churches of God/Christ” but rather they are churches created after the Reformation. 2ndGen is equivocating in order to lauch another fallacious argument.

“because we are called Catholic and you are called Orthodox then we are the “original” Church and your church began in 1054”

Fallacy. Non-sequitor. The proper names of the two churches has no bearing on which church can rightfully claim continuity with the Church of the first millenium.
And guess what, if you can prove that The Orthodox Church was called The Orthodox Catholic Church before the 11th century, then you are also proving that The Orthodox Church is guilty of “deleting” Catholic from their name and that they are “not” the original Church.
Fallacy. Straw man argument. Nobody ever asserted that changing the proper name of the Church was something that can make you “guilty” of some canonical crime. However, as I have cited many times, changing the Creed was something that would make a bishop “guilty” of a canonical crime according to the canons of the 3rd and 6th Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church.
We are the true Church because Saint Peter started our Church (not his little brother).
Fallacy. Nonsequitor. St Peter also founded the church at Antioch.
What takes precedence?

The Apostles Creed of The First Century?

Or the Nicene Creed of The 4th Century?
According to the canons of the Catholic Church…

**The holy and Ecumenical Synod further says, this pious and orthodox (Nicene) Creed of the Divine grace would be sufficient for the full knowledge and confirmation of the orthodox faith. **
Sixth Ecumenical Council
 
Well, hello.
Funny, but not only were they canonized by The Church, but one is even a “Doctor of The Church”.
Funny indeed.
Let’s see…No other Christian Church existed “but” The Catholic Church when they were around.
Then why were the Ecumenical Councils called?
They were Catholic Church members.
Yes, they are. Orthodox Catholic all.
I think that’s sufficient to believe that they were loyal to only The Catholic Church
Yes.
especially since they defended it so well.
Against whom? You said no one else was around.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215445&page=35
Yes, I thought you would be. Care to claim those Fathers who anathematized the Pope? Their “perfect declaration of orthodoxy” in doing so?
 
Besides, why bother myself with “other” Churches?
Because if you want to argue against the Orthodox you should at least educate yourself concerning the history of the schism so as not to embarrass yourself by exposing your ignorance of such basic facts of church hisory such as the mutual excommunications of Pope Leo IX and Patriarch Michael I
 
Those are Catholic Church Fathers.

Not Orthodox Church Fathers.

All were members of The Catholic Church
(not The Orthodox Church).

Proof, they were Catholic with allegiances to Rome?

The years they lived.

5th Century.

👍

All Church Fathers prior to the 11th century are Catholic Church Fathers (not Othodox Church Fathers).

That is, unless you can find a Church Father that says that they were members of The Orthodox Church (and not The Catholic Church).
Actually, they are all 4th century.

During the years of conflict between East and West, the Roman pontiff remained firm, defending the Catholic faith against heresies and unruly or immoral secular powers, especially the Byzantine emperor. The first conflict came when Emperor Constantius appointed an Arian heretic as patriarch. Pope Julian excommunicated the patriarch in 343, and Constantinople remained in schism until John Chrysostom assumed the patriarchate in 398.
catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp

St. Gregory was Archbishop of Constantinople 379-381, i.e. between 343 and 398.

Not only did Basil’s representative have to travel from Cæsarea to Armenia, and from Armenia to Alexandria, he also had to go to Rome to obtain the sanction of Pope Damasus and the acquiescence of the West. Notwithstanding the blunder committed at Antioch in 363, the generous spirit of Athanasius gave hope of success, his sudden death, however (May, 373), caused all efforts to be abandoned. Even at Rome and in the West, Basil and Meletius were to meet with disappointement. While they wrought persistently to restore peace, a new Antiochene community, declaring itself connected with Rome and Athanasius, increased the number of dissidents, aggravated the rivalry, and renewed the disputes. There were now three Antiochene churches that formally adopted the Nicene Creed. The generous scheme of Basil for appeasement and union had ended unfortunately, and to make matters worse, Evagrius, the chief promoter of the attempted reconciliation, once more joined the party of Paulinus. This important conversion won over to the intruders St. Jerome and Pope Damasus; the very next year, and without any declaration concerning the schism, the pope showed a decided preference for Paulinus, recognized him as bishop, greeted him as brother, and considered him papal legate in the East…Two legates sent to Rome, Dorotheus and Sanctissimus, returned in the spring of 377, bringing with them cordial declarations which St. Basil instantly proceeded to publish everywhere. These declarations pronounced anathemas against Arius and the heresy of Apollinaris then spreading at Antioch, condemnations all the more timely, as theological excitement was then at its highest in Antioch, and was gradually reaching Palestine. St. Jerome entered into the conflict, perhaps without having a thorough knowledge of the situation. Rejecting Meletius, Vitalian, and Paulinus, he made a direct appeal to Pope Damasus in a letter still famous, but which the pope did not answer. Discontented, Jerome returned to Antioch, let himself be ordained presbyter by Paulinus, and became the echo of Paulinist imputations against Meletius and his following…Since the two factions which divided the Antiochene Church were orthodox there remained but to unite them actually, a difficult move, but easy when the death of either bishop made it possible for the survivor to exercise full authority without hurting pride or discipline. This solution Meletius recognized as early as 381, but his friendly and peace- making proposals were rejected by Paulinus who refused to come to any agreement or settlement.
newadvent.org/cathen/10161b.htm

Paulinus was Rome’s man in Antioch, not Meletius, who died in 381.

In the East Siricius interposed to settle the Meletian schism at Antioch; this schism had continued notwithstanding the death in 381 of Meletius at the Council of Constantinople. The followers of Meletius elected Flavian as his successor, while the adherents of Bishop Paulinus, after the death of this bishop (388), elected Evagrius. Evagrius died in 392 and through Flavian’s management no successor was elected. By the mediation of St. John Chrysostom and Theophilus of Alexandria an embassy, led by Bishop Acacius of Beroea, was sent to Rome to persuade Siricius to recognize Flavian and to readmit him to communion with the Church.
newadvent.org/cathen/14026a.htm

At the time of Siricius’ death (399), Rome still did not recognize Flavian.
 
Actually, they are all 4th century.

During the years of conflict between East and West, the Roman pontiff remained firm, defending the Catholic faith against heresies and unruly or immoral secular powers, especially the Byzantine emperor. The first conflict came when Emperor Constantius appointed an Arian heretic as patriarch. Pope Julian excommunicated the patriarch in 343, and Constantinople remained in schism until John Chrysostom assumed the patriarchate in 398.
catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp

St. Gregory was Archbishop of Constantinople 379-381, i.e. between 343 and 398.

Not only did Basil’s representative have to travel from Cæsarea to Armenia, and from Armenia to Alexandria, he also had to go to Rome to obtain the sanction of Pope Damasus and the acquiescence of the West. Notwithstanding the blunder committed at Antioch in 363, the generous spirit of Athanasius gave hope of success, his sudden death, however (May, 373), caused all efforts to be abandoned. Even at Rome and in the West, Basil and Meletius were to meet with disappointement. While they wrought persistently to restore peace, a new Antiochene community, declaring itself connected with Rome and Athanasius, increased the number of dissidents, aggravated the rivalry, and renewed the disputes. There were now three Antiochene churches that formally adopted the Nicene Creed. The generous scheme of Basil for appeasement and union had ended unfortunately, and to make matters worse, Evagrius, the chief promoter of the attempted reconciliation, once more joined the party of Paulinus. This important conversion won over to the intruders St. Jerome and Pope Damasus; the very next year, and without any declaration concerning the schism, the pope showed a decided preference for Paulinus, recognized him as bishop, greeted him as brother, and considered him papal legate in the East…Two legates sent to Rome, Dorotheus and Sanctissimus, returned in the spring of 377, bringing with them cordial declarations which St. Basil instantly proceeded to publish everywhere. These declarations pronounced anathemas against Arius and the heresy of Apollinaris then spreading at Antioch, condemnations all the more timely, as theological excitement was then at its highest in Antioch, and was gradually reaching Palestine. St. Jerome entered into the conflict, perhaps without having a thorough knowledge of the situation. Rejecting Meletius, Vitalian, and Paulinus, he made a direct appeal to Pope Damasus in a letter still famous, but which the pope did not answer. Discontented, Jerome returned to Antioch, let himself be ordained presbyter by Paulinus, and became the echo of Paulinist imputations against Meletius and his following…Since the two factions which divided the Antiochene Church were orthodox there remained but to unite them actually, a difficult move, but easy when the death of either bishop made it possible for the survivor to exercise full authority without hurting pride or discipline. This solution Meletius recognized as early as 381, but his friendly and peace- making proposals were rejected by Paulinus who refused to come to any agreement or settlement.
newadvent.org/cathen/10161b.htm

Paulinus was Rome’s man in Antioch, not Meletius, who died in 381.

In the East Siricius interposed to settle the Meletian schism at Antioch; this schism had continued notwithstanding the death in 381 of Meletius at the Council of Constantinople. The followers of Meletius elected Flavian as his successor, while the adherents of Bishop Paulinus, after the death of this bishop (388), elected Evagrius. Evagrius died in 392 and through Flavian’s management no successor was elected. By the mediation of St. John Chrysostom and Theophilus of Alexandria an embassy, led by Bishop Acacius of Beroea, was sent to Rome to persuade Siricius to recognize Flavian and to readmit him to communion with the Church.
newadvent.org/cathen/14026a.htm

At the time of Siricius’ death (399), Rome still did not recognize Flavian.
But there was no “Orthodox Chruch” back then, so they can’t be the Church Fathers of any Church today other than that of The Catholic Church.
 
Because if you want to argue against the Orthodox you should at least educate yourself concerning the history of the schism so as not to embarrass yourself by exposing your ignorance of such basic facts of church hisory such as the mutual excommunications of Pope Leo IX and Patriarch Michael I
Really? Sounds like a “personal” belief to me. I’m Catholic. I don’t to “protest” or “reform” or “schism” from any Church. I’m in “The” Church for Christians.

As for the history of schisms and all that sort, since I’m not a schismer, it doesn’t concern me and I certainly won’t obsess over it. That’s a schismer’s problem.

As for my embarrasing myself?

Wow…Hell have no fury like a schismer scorned.

😃
 
How **“Orthodox” became the proper name of the Eastern Church **it is difficult to say.

That’s talking about The Orthodox Church that exists today. 🤷

The Catholic Church is an “orthodox” (not “Orthodox”) church.

The “Orthodox” Church is not a Catholic Church, but an Orthodox (not “orthodox”) church.

Still haven’t shown me where in history the term or phrase “Orthodox Church” or “Orthodox Catholic Church” exists before the 11th century.

:coffeeread:
 
The Catholic Church is an “orthodox” (not “Orthodox”) church.
Your begging the question again.
The “Orthodox” Church is not a Catholic Church, but an Orthodox (not “orthodox”) church.
Your using equivocation with the proper names of the churches and the qualities of the churches. If you believe the Orthodox Church is not orthodox then state your case.
 
But there was no “Orthodox Chruch” back then, so they can’t be the Church Fathers of any Church today other than that of The Catholic Church.
So in your view Ultramontanist Fathers disobeyed the pope of Rome’s express commands on the patriarch of Antioch, remaining out of communion with Rome for several decades?

But the Church Fathers were not Ultramontanists, but Orthodox Catholic.
 
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