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Tiber_Pilgrim
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Says the woman who fails to understands my point because she has already picked up a pitchfork and is ready to storm the Duggar home.
The Duggars Respond to Reports That Josh Duggar Was Accused of Child Molestation
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Havard
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A pervert is someone who acts on perversion. You can’t be a pervert and not know it, unless you have a disassociative personality. I said he should find out if he is at risk to repeat, not “if he’s a pervert.”
And I never said the government should force him to. I’ve been very clear about talking about this, so I can only conclude that this comment was intended as a non sequitur.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
Unfortunately, in the circles the Duggars travel in (as was very obvious in the Derek/Jill and Ben/Jessa courtships), a courtship is treated as a prelude to engagement, which is a prelude to marriage. Breaking off a courtship has a heavy social stigma, and people who do so are often stigmatized in a similar way divorcees are. Anna very well could have been afraid that if she broke off the courtship, SHE would be seen as “damaged goods” and not be able to land another husband.
However, there are unfortunately many women who are NOT conservative fundamentalists who stand by partners who are guilty of child molestation; and I’m not talking about a remote history of it, I’m talking about actually finding out about abuse going on and turning a blind eye to it, or easily “forgiving” the perpetrator and taking him back.
Speaking of reality TV stars, Honey Boo Boo’s mother doesn’t strike me as particularly religious, but THAT show as cancelled after it was found out that she was dating a man who had been convicted of abusing his daughter.
It’s really sad how some of the big TLC reality TV families have fared. So now we have two child sexual abuse scandals, and two marriages (the Gosselins and Roloffs) that broke up. Not planning to tune into that channel anytime soon.
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KendraDZ1902
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Nope. Never said that. Just that what he did was horrific and I feel sorry for the victims. Never once did I say I wanted to do anything to them or their home. Don’t put words in my mouth. You got it?
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Tiber_Pilgrim
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Jesus also stated that if one looks at another person lustfully, they have committed adultery in their heart and therefore it is better to pluck one’s eye out and lose that member of the body than to have the whole body thrown into hell. I think he makes pretty clear the seriousness of the sin of adultery. We never read of Jesus putting a disclaimer out there about it being between “two consenting adults”. And yet, Jesus still showed mercy to the adulteress just as he shows mercy to ALL who seek His mercy, repent, and desire to sin no more.
I fully understand that sexual abuse is different from adultery. I am not arguing against that point. I am simply stating that both are sinful and our response to individuals trapped in sin should be one of mercy and not outright condemnation.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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I don’t think it is overboard. But perhaps that did have something to do with it. Who knows. What I do know is that Jim Bob never should have let the exploitation of his kids be something that would have this become public shame. He knew that this existed and happens and he knew people would try to dig into their past and he smiled for the camera and cashed the checks anyway. The whole time early in the show Josh was the star. From his engagement to his car dealership to his marriage to Anna. You can tell that this was the Duggars pride and joy. That type of celebration of Josh is what absolutely would devastate his victims that were his sisters. Now that the info is public, it is not hard to figure out who the sisters were. And some of them have husbands now.
Parading your daughter out as the token virgin who has not even kissed someone or held hands but ooooops was molested and sexually assaulted by her brother seems odd now doesn’t it.
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ToeInTheWater
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Two points:
Indeed, even their instructions to their daughters that they not let anyone touch them between the neck and knees, to me suggests they made the VICTIMS the primary line of defense against further assaults. Which sickens me.
- I get the feeling much of Kendra’s passionate responses in support of the victims came about because so many other posters have minimized Josh’s actions, and essentially engaged in victim blaming; apparently, if someone is severely affected by being sexually abused, gets PTSD and has flashbacks and suffers from sexual dysfunction, it’s the victims fault for not being a good forgiving Christian.
- Second point:
“Odd” would be one word for it, but I do suspect this was one reason the Duggars covered up Josh’s actions, that they knew their daughters would be seen as “damaged goods” themselves and be less likely to land husbands.
Indeed, even their instructions to their daughters that they not let anyone touch them between the neck and knees, to me suggests they made the VICTIMS the primary line of defense against further assaults. Which sickens me.
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KendraDZ1902
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:clapping::choocho:
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dixieagle
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Della, it is my understanding that the “counseling” received by Josh involved being sent away to an acquaintance for a year of intense physical labor, and a stern talking-to by a family friend who was a state trooper, who never reported the molestation as he had been required to do, and who is now jailed - yet again - as a child pornographer. Michelle Duggar finally admitted that there was no actual counseling involved.
Heaven only knows what kind of “counseling” his sisters and the other girl received.
Your point about some having it in for Christian families is well-taken, and all the more reason that we must follow the law - not to mention the Commandments - to the letter, and especially try not to give anti-Christians any fodder for their hateful agenda.
Heaven only knows what kind of “counseling” his sisters and the other girl received.
Your point about some having it in for Christian families is well-taken, and all the more reason that we must follow the law - not to mention the Commandments - to the letter, and especially try not to give anti-Christians any fodder for their hateful agenda.
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Galnextdoor
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If you are referring to my personal pain, no, it is not repressed. I live with it everyday. But as I mentioned before, my parents simply told me I had a wild imagination and that I must have misinterpreted something. I would explain in more detail, but it would not be appropriate for an open forum.
I simply choose to forgive and pray for the person. Just like I forgive and pray for the soul of a priest who molested me.
I think it is hardest to forgive my mother, because she would not listen to me. I get up every day and forgive her all over again.
I think that this case is different then mine. If you read the police report, in the incidences where the girls were awake, they were not aware that he had touched them in an inappropriate manner. There was only the last incident, after the little girl was told that he was not allowed to touch between the neck and the knees, that the girl told her mother that Josh touched her while she was reading a book to him. Nobody in the room with him saw it. I’m sure he touched her. Whether it was inappropriate or by accident is hard to tell.
The Duggars acknowledged what happened, tried to get help, and reported it to the police.
Although in the 3 and a half years after Josh returned home the girls said that he never touched them again, people feel that his treatment was not sufficient. There is no evidence that he ever repeated his actions again, but people want to lock him up and throw away the key. What is the point of treatment? Is it to correct a problem or is it to provide vengeance?
My brother is a sick person who lives on the street. I have never forgotten what he did to me.
These girls, the ones who were awake at the time, had to be reminded. The one little girl said that Josh told her that she had a hole in the jeans she was wearing under her dress. He touched the hole when he said it. That is what one of the charges of forcible fondling was for. The hole was in the seat of the jeans. The officer speculated that he touched skin when this happened, so that would make it a felony. The girl said she didn’t remember the incident until someone told her about it. I don’t know what kind of trauma she would have suffered from that. Do you think that would be traumatic enough for her to need counseling?
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Galnextdoor
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I think that the actions need to fit the punishment. If you read the police accounts, the forcible fondling consisted of Josh touching the hole in the seat of his sister’s jeans and telling her she had a hole in her jeans. This was considered a felony because the police speculated that he touched skin. Another incident of forcible fondling consisted of him removing a blanket from his sister while she was awake. She says she thought he had just taken the blanket off and walked away. She was awake and did not realize he had touched her inappropriately as he took the blanket off.
I am just going by the police report. Not people’s speculation or opinions.
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Galnextdoor
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To improve your understanding of what happened, you should read the actual report. A link to it has been posted to it over in a similar thread called Josh Duggar admits to molestation charges etc. in the news section of this forum. The state trooper was not a family friend. He was a Trooper who had done state inspection of the cars at the Duggars used car dealership. It was not the Duggar’s fault that he chose not to pursue and investigation. Josh Dugger was sent over 200 miles away to a Christian Ministry program. The father said he thought Josh was receiving counseling and hard labor.
I think you will find the actual report enlightening. One of the incidences of forcible fondling consisted of him touching a hole in the seat of his sisters jeans and telling her she had a hole there.
Another incident of forcible fondling consisted of him taking a blanket off of his sister and walking away with it. The sister did not realize he touched her breast when he took the blanket.
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oldgraymare2
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I agree with you, Kendra, and the point is, too, that it shouldn’t have even happened in the first place!
It’s like people are trying to justify that if his sisters weren’t aware of it, then it must not have been any big deal that he even did this in the first place, or his sisters must not have even been traumatized by it.
How does anyone even know that his sisters weren’t traumatized by this happening to them?! Sometimes people who were abused just don’t like talking about it! It doesn’t mean that they weren’t traumatized by it, because they aren’t talking about it!
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Galnextdoor
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You should read the actual police report. One of felony forcible fondling consisted of Josh touching a hole in the seat of his sister’s jeans and telling her she had a hole there. The officer speculated that he might have touched the little girl’s skin. Another incident of forcible fondling consisted of Josh pulling the blanket off of his sister and touching her breast while he did it. His sister said that she thought he had just pulled the blanket off of her. She was awake. She did not realize he actually touched her breast when he did it.
These are incidents that Josh confessed to his parents.
How many years should the 13 year old boy be in prison for this?
How many years of counseling do you think the two girls need for this?
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Cider
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Actually I think it’s the opposite. I think that often times the lynch mob is so overwhelming we have no choice but to try and interject a little sanity into the discussion. Even if we’d normally be in agreement with them. Sometimes it just goes too far.
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Bruised_Reed
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Nope. I agree with ToeInTheWater. And Kendra. And others who aren’t minimizing what happened.
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Cider
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I haven’t seen anyone minimize what happened. I’ve seen repeated posts discussing the actual facts in evidence based on the actual police report. And then I’ve seen a bunch of speculation based on assumptions.
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Cider
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Of course it shouldn’t have happened in the first place. No one is saying otherwise.
Although I’d really like you to explain how anyone can be traumatized by something they don’t know about. I can tell you, I’ve been traumatized by a few different things in my life and none of them were things I didn’t know about. I’m really serious, are you saying there is some sort of extra sensory perception that causes trauma that you don’t know about in any other way? I’m not being sarcastic. I’ve never heard of this. I don’t understand how someone can be psychologically traumatized about something you don’t even know about?
From the DRM ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466464/
As outlined in the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV-TR), PTSD develops after exposure to a Criterion A1 event, defined as involving actual or threatened death, serious injury, or threat to one’s physical integrity (American Psychiatric Association, 2000). To meet Criterion A1, the individual must have been directly involved in the traumatic event, witnessed the event, or learned about the death or serious injury of a family member or close friend.
I’ve never heard of such a thing as being traumatized by something you don’t know about, so I googled PTSD to see if there was more info.
Maybe you are right, and that explains why the world is so messed up. We’re all psychologically traumatized by all the crazy stuff that has happened in the world that we don’t even know of. What do I know?
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DakiniArtist
Guest
This is what parents were told to tell their kids in the '80s and '90s, and maybe now by many therapists. I told clients, and my own children, if someone touches them anywhere on their bodies where they are uncomfortable, to tell them to stop and to yell/tell an adult.
Sadly, I have been in the Duggars parents position. It’s an unbelievable, horrible situation and when you get the authorities, case workers, and counselors involved, you’re in crisis mode, being told several things sometimes. Our detective wanted the book thrown at our son. The judge felt otherwise, that he would be worse after going to detention. After being an adolescent counselor for some time, and being stuck in this impossible situation, it seemed rational. I was also hurting for our boy and wanting him to get help, not to go into a situation in which he was somehow made worse or exposed to worse than he had been in his mother’s home.
Was I judged? Yes. My teens found out and one no longer speaks to me. She told my family, and many of them blamed me. My in-laws circled their wagons around my daughter, who from 4 to 9 lived with this secret. They chose her over there grandson/nephew. An unbelievably hard choice. No matter what any of us did, we were wrong by other people. My best friend, in whom I confided, confided to other friends. I have been ostracized by our circle now. She stopped coming over, and looked at my husband with suspicion because that was his son. We had to talk to neighbors, and my daughter’s friends’ parents, to let them know so they could talk with their children. My stepson’s mother’s acquaintances starting coming out of the woodwork, saying this had happened to their children with this boy. Had someone, somewhere, called the police or CPS and been brave enough to see this through, my daughter wouldn’t have been hurt. Other kids wouldn’t have been hurt. He’s also, I hear, been in trouble at school for assaulting girls. His older brother (not my husband’s) is in prison for statutory rape.
I live with this everyday. The guilt is overwhelming. The gravity hit me recently and I have not dealt well with it.
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Cider
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Yes, the whole no one should touch you from your neck to your knees was pretty standard parenting advice in the 80’s and 90’s. I also taught similar to my kids. It has nothing to do with relying on the kids to be the gatekeeper. No one can be with their kids 24/7 and I was a stay at home mom. Your kids go to other peoples houses to play and participate in various activities. They need to know what is and isn’t acceptable because some of these people will tell kids it’s ok. A male friend in high school was molested by his coach, I found out years later when we were adults and he told me. Another friend of mine, his father was accused of molesting some girls in the neighborhood after I was an adult and moved away. He always gave me the creeps. I don’t think my parents ever discussed this kind of thing with us as kids. I certainly don’t remember it.
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