The elusive "I"?

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davidv said:
No, because there appears no connection between what I posted and your response.
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There is. You asked how I know that a molecule of water is not wet and I answered that: Because the state of water can change from liquid to sold to vapor depending on external parameters yet the molecules of water in all these cases are same. This means that the state of solid, ice, also should be wet if the molecule of water is wet which is not. Hence, the wetness is a bulk property.
 
STT said:
There is. You asked how I know that a molecule of water is not wet and I answered that: Because the state of water can change from liquid to sold to vapor depending on external parameters yet the molecules of water in all these cases are same. This means that the state of solid, ice, also should be wet if the molecule of water is wet which is not. Hence, the wetness is a bulk property.
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I still have no idea how this relates to the topic of this thread.
 
STT said:
Do you believe that there is a one to one correspondence between the electromagnetic field inside our brain and mental state, such as conscious state?
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Your question does not make sense. There are correlations between a person’s eeg patterns and level of consciousness. There would be some very slight magnetic change associated with these, which is a secondary phenomenon, Are you suggesting that consciousness is electromagnetic in nature. Interesting, but no cigar. You may want to consider how when the brain is subjected to quite strong fluctuating magnetic fields such as during an MRI, there are changes in the magnetic fields without any change in consciousness. At any rate, none of this is a matter of belief. Biology and especially neurophysiology is far more complicated than the simplistic thinking that seems to underlie what you are asking. I do have to add that your question has nothing to do do with my critique of the article you linked in a previous post.
 
Aloysium said:
Your question does not make sense.
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It makes sense.
Aloysium said:
There are correlations between a person’s eeg patterns and level of consciousness.
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Good.
Aloysium said:
There would be some very slight magnetic change associated with these, which is a secondary phenomenon, Are you suggesting that consciousness is electromagnetic in nature?
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Yes.
Aloysium said:
Interesting, but no cigar.
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Why is this not convincing for you? You already accept that there is a correlation between EEG and level of consciousness.
Aloysium said:
You may want to consider how when the brain is subjected to quite strong fluctuating magnetic fields such as during an MRI, there are changes in the magnetic fields without any change in consciousness.
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I am sure that the type of magnetic fields in two setups are different. I don’t know what is the difference.
Aloysium said:
At any rate, none of this is a matter of belief. Biology and especially neurophysiology is far more complicated than the simplistic thinking that seems to underlie what you are asking.
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I think the basic idea is very simple. All you have inside skull is neurons and electromagnetic field which the second one generate consciousness.
Aloysium said:
I do have to add that your question has nothing to do do with my critique of the article you linked in a previous post.
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I think we are moving in a good direction.
 
STT said:
. . . Why is this not convincing for you? You already accept that there is a correlation between EEG and level of consciousness. I am sure that the type of magnetic fields in two setups are different. I don’t know what is the difference. I think the basic idea is very simple. All you have inside skull is neurons and electromagnetic field which the second one generate consciousness. I think we are moving in a good direction.
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I don’t know how to respond to your posts. It isn’t a matter of accepting anything. When someone is having a seizure, an eeg demonstrates specific abnormalities. When a person is awake there is a certain pattern; when they are resting another and in deep sleep very low waves appear on the graph. If you are interested, Wikipedia has a fair enough explanation of the mechanism of the eeg, the how’s and what’s of the information it provides. The physiology and the biophysics are too detailed for me to describe. Forget electromagnetic fields. As I said earlier a Magnetic Resonance Imqgining scannner creates alternating magnetic fields that pass through the skull. They are sufficient to align the water molecules. As they shift back to random position, the change in the magnetic field is detected. The different types of tissues can be detected based on their water content and through the use of a computer an image is created. If things were as simple as you seem to suggest, there would be changes in consciousness during the procedure. Going back to TMS, the way it was used to create a flash of light was by focussing a strong magnetic field in the occipital area of the brain. What this caused was a movement of ions around the area, disrupting the normal functioning, which does not involve magnetic fields. Consciousness is not generated by physical events, although It is structured in accordance with the material, as it also is with the psychological and spiritual structures that form our being. That’s the very short of it.
 
STT said:
That is** not**
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Consciousness is associated with the collective firing of a set of neurons but we have **direct knowledge **that we are conscious whereas we infer the existence of everything else - including neurons. You are putting the cart before the horse! We begin with our mind and end with matter.
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Aloysium said:
I don’t know how to respond to your posts. It isn’t a matter of accepting anything. When someone is having a seizure, an eeg demonstrates specific abnormalities. When a person is awake there is a certain pattern; when they are resting another and in deep sleep very low waves appear on the graph. If you are interested, Wikipedia has a fair enough explanation of the mechanism of the eeg, the how’s and what’s of the information it provides. The physiology and the biophysics are too detailed for me to describe. Forget electromagnetic fields. As I said earlier a Magnetic Resonance Imqgining scannner creates alternating magnetic fields that pass through the skull. They are sufficient to align the water molecules. As they shift back to random position, the change in the magnetic field is detected. The different types of tissues can be detected based on their water content and through the use of a computer an image is created. If things were as simple as you seem to suggest, there would be changes in consciousness during the procedure. Going back to TMS, the way it was used to create a flash of light was by focussing a strong magnetic field in the occipital area of the brain. What this caused was a movement of ions around the area, disrupting the normal functioning, which does not involve magnetic fields. Consciousness is not generated by physical events, although It is structured in accordance with the material, as it also is with the psychological and spiritual structures that form our being. That’s the very short of it.
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I believe that the magnetic field is constant in space in Magnetic Resonance Imagining Scanner whereas in the second case the fields are tightly focused. That is a big difference which can explain why in there is no hallucination in Magnetic Resonance Imagining Scanner where there is hallucination in the cited experiment.
 
tonyrey said:
Consciousness is associated with the collective firing of a set of neurons but we have **direct knowledge **that we are conscious whereas we infer the existence of everything else - including neurons. You are putting the cart before the horse! We begin with our mind and end with matter.
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So you believe that you could be conscious without having a brain?
 
STT said:
I believe that the magnetic field is constant in space in Magnetic Resonance Imagining Scanner whereas in the second case the fields are tightly focused. That is a big difference which can explain why in there is no hallucination in Magnetic Resonance Imagining Scanner where there is hallucination in the cited experiment.
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Ya think? That’s what I said. The magnetism is a secondary effect. Primary only in disrupting the local ionic environment of the neuronal involved. The focussed magnetic field caused a shift in ions which acted similarly to an electric probe placed in that area of the brain. Those cells reacted. Cells do not create consciousness. They are a part of its organization. A person knows, perceives, feels, experiences. A person is whole, a unity.
 
Aloysium said:
Ya think? That’s what I said. The magnetism is a secondary effect. Primary only in disrupting the local ionic environment of the neuronal involved. The focussed magnetic field caused a shift in ions which acted similarly to an electric probe placed in that area of the brain. Those cells reacted.
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That we agree.
Aloysium said:
Cells do not create consciousness.
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Yes, cells create electromagnetic filed though firing. The combination of neurons and electromagnetic field produce a state so called conscious state. This is pretty similar to any state in nature, solid, gas, etc.
Aloysium said:
They are a part of its organization. A person knows, perceives, feels, experiences. A person is whole, a unity.
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What do you mean? Of course conscious state is unitary.
 
STT said:
. . . Yes, cells create electromagnetic filed though firing. The combination of neurons and electromagnetic field produce a state so called conscious state. This is pretty similar to any state in nature, solid, gas, etc. What do you mean? Of course conscious state is unitary.
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Forget I brought it up.
 
STT said:
Consciousness is associated
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Why not? There is no reason to believe physical objects existed before the mind which is certainly more powerful than the brain. There is no evidence the brain is aware of itself whereas we are conscious of our mental activity. I would prefer to have a bodiless mind rather than a mindless body, wouldn’t you? 🙂
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