The end of Protestantism

[PRmerger]

Ol’ Marty’s personal interpretation of anything really wouldn’t have a say, then or today. Like all who consider the Augsburg Confession to be the right reflection of Scripture and tradition, he’d be beholden to the Confessions, which do have a say. He’d lament those “Lutheran” churches that do not adhere to Lutheran doctrine, and he might be perturbed by a few modern practices which are adiaphora anyway, but he’d applaud those Evangelical Catholic churches who remained steadfast in their confession.

What would really upset him is how secularized Christians have allowed their civil governments to become. He might also be surprised at what today’s Church in Rome teaches; he might be a bit like Benedict - a Catholic who thinks a rather Lutheran.

While the first paragraph is based on Lutheran understanding of authority, the second paragraph is based solely on my personal opinion. These are all hypothetical, mind you.

Who wrote the Augsburg Confessions?

 

[MaryT777]

Ol’ Marty’s personal interpretation of anything really wouldn’t have a say, then or today. Like all who consider the Augsburg Confession to be the right reflection of Scripture and tradition, he’d be beholden to the Confessions, which do have a say. He’d lament those “Lutheran” churches that do not adhere to Lutheran doctrine, and he might be perturbed by a few modern practices which are adiaphora anyway, but he’d applaud those Evangelical Catholic churches who remained steadfast in their confession.

What would really upset him is how secularized Christians have allowed their civil governments to become. He might also be surprised at what today’s Church in Rome teaches; he might be a bit like Benedict - a Catholic who thinks a rather Lutheran.

While the first paragraph is based on Lutheran understanding of authority, the second paragraph is based solely on my personal opinion. These are all hypothetical, mind you.

The Concord book contains both Luther’s Small and Large Catechism does it not?
(Speaking from memory) I assume Luther wrote those?

It was my understanding at least here in the local LCMS those that confirm Lutheran confirm agreeing to Luther’s Small Catechism. Is that standard?

Do the Wels and the LCMS have altar and pulpit fellowship? Is the Wels considered a confessional Lutheran synod in the “eyes of the LCMS”

Mary.

 

[HomeInNE]

Egg-zactly.

It’s a tragedy of the greatest degree for folks to church shop. They find a church that suits their own theology.

Don’t you think, rather, that the paradigm should be: find the Church which Christ established, and then conform your theology to Christ’s?

Hmm, I generally try to avoid the use of the word “should” in reference to human behavior and decision-making, as I find it implies judgment that isn’t necessarily our own (in my opinion) to make. But as for me personally, I have indeed found that the more confusing and difficult life away from faith became, the more ardently I returned to it and I have certainly had the Catholic faith on my mind since then.

 

[ptisme]

Ol’ Marty’s personal interpretation of anything really wouldn’t have a say, then or today. Like all who consider the Augsburg Confession to be the right reflection of Scripture and tradition, he’d be beholden to the Confessions, which do have a say. He’d lament those “Lutheran” churches that do not adhere to Lutheran doctrine, and he might be perturbed by a few modern practices which are adiaphora anyway, but he’d applaud those Evangelical Catholic churches who remained steadfast in their confession.

What would really upset him is how secularized Christians have allowed their civil governments to become**. He might also be surprised at what today’s Church in Rome teaches**; he might be a bit like Benedict - a Catholic who thinks a rather Lutheran.

While the first paragraph is based on Lutheran understanding of authority, the second paragraph is based solely on my personal opinion. These are all hypothetical, mind you.

Give me a couple examples please.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Ol’ Marty’s personal interpretation of anything really wouldn’t have a say, then or today. Like all who consider the Augsburg Confession to be the right reflection of Scripture and tradition, he’d be beholden to the Confessions, which do have a say. He’d lament those “Lutheran” churches that do not adhere to Lutheran doctrine, and he might be perturbed by a few modern practices which are adiaphora anyway, but he’d applaud those Evangelical Catholic churches who remained steadfast in their confession.

What would really upset him is how secularized Christians have allowed their civil governments to become. He might also be surprised at what today’s Church in Rome teaches; he might be a bit like Benedict - a Catholic who thinks a rather Lutheran.

While the first paragraph is based on Lutheran understanding of authority, the second paragraph is based solely on my personal opinion. These are all hypothetical, mind you.

Agreed. The Confessions are given more weight than Martin Luther himself. When we are commissioned for a teaching job, for example, we pledge to faithfully uphold the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, not the person and character of Martin Luther. I’m pretty sure also that Luther himself, while I think he would vigorously condemn those Lutheran churches who have departed from the Confessions, he would also be quite content with those churches who have remained steadfast in the Confessions. I think he’d be more furious with the turn society itself has taken in the last 498 years or so. LOL, I’d love to think of the turn of phrase he’d use regarding the Devil and society… he’d probably call society " Satan’s overused ( insert expletive here)" or something.

 

[onenow1]

Do you think Protestantism will die out? I think so.

Hi, smead ! Just a thought; God knows all things before they even happen, if he did not want it to happen it would not. Truly in all things, it is God’s will not ours; how He accomplishes His will is truly a mystery; as He has said my ways are not your ways.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[ptisme]

Agreed. The Confessions are given more weight than Martin Luther himself. When we are commissioned for a teaching job, for example, we pledge to faithfully uphold the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, not the person and character of Martin Luther. I’m pretty sure also that Luther himself, while I think he would vigorously condemn those Lutheran churches who have departed from the Confessions, he would also be quite content with those churches who have remained steadfast in the Confessions.** I think he’d be more furious with the turn society itself has taken in the last 498 years or so. LOL, I’d love to think of the turn of phrase he’d use regarding the Devil and society… he’d probably call society " Satan’s overused ( insert expletive here)" or something. :**D

Luther himself was very aware of the battles between good and evil correct? I thought I read that he had battles with spiritual warfare…

 

[steido01]

Who wrote the Augsburg Confessions?

Good question! That’s actually a lot like asking “Who wrote the U.S. Declaration of Independence?” It was literally penned by Thomas Jefferson, but written by the Revolutionists. Similarly, the Augsburg Confession was penned by Philip Melanchthon, but was prepared by all the Catholics in the “Evangelical party” at the time (they were still considered Catholic then, remember). Sometimes people like to put all the blame/thanks on Luther because he was the loudmouth who Rome named the movement after. But he did not exist in a vaccuum. The Reformation that bears his name today began well before him, took place around him, and even without him. The Augsburg Confession itself was signed by the following leaders:
John, Duke of Saxony, Elector
George, Margrave of Brandenburg
Ernest, Duke of Lueneberg
Philip, Landgrave of Hesse
John Frederick, Duke of Saxony (Luther’s protector)
Francis, Duke of Lueneburg
Wolfgang, Prince of Anhalt
Senate and Magistracy of Nuremburg
Senate of Reutlingen

The Concord book contains both Luther’s Small and Large Catechism does it not?
(Speaking from memory) I assume Luther wrote those?

It’s called the Book of Concord, or Concordia. It contains several documents:

• Preface to the Book of Concord
• The Apostles Creed
• The Nicene Creed
• The Athanasian Creed
• The Augsburg Confession
• The Apology to the Augsburg Confession
• The Smalcald Articles (Luther)
• The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope
• The Small Catechism (Luther)
• The Large Catechism (Luther)
• The Epitome of the Formula of Concord
• The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord

These were written by Philip Melanchthon, Jacob Andreae, Martin Chemnitz, Nicholas Selnecker, David Chytraeus, Andrew Musculus, Christopher Koerner and others, including the bishops and pastors of the early church who wrote the Apostles, Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. Note that the only bits Luther wrote were the Catechisms and the Smalcald articles.

It was my understanding at least here in the local LCMS those that confirm Lutheran confirm agreeing to Luther’s Small Catechism. Is that standard?

Well, here’s the LCMS Confirmation Rite, which is essentially standard across Lutheranism.

Do the Wels and the LCMS have altar and pulpit fellowship? Is the Wels considered a confessional Lutheran synod in the “eyes of the LCMS”

The WELS and the LCMS have not shared pulpit and altar fellowship since 1961, but the leaders still meet to teach and admonish each other, and each synod acknowledges the other to be a Confessional Lutheran body, with rightly-called and ordained ministers and rightly administered sacraments. The synods simply use fellowship as a tool to call other synods to repentance and to return to Confessional teachings (indeed, full fellowship between them is not broken, but simply “suspended” temporarily). They’re all close and conduct themselves with collegiality. They, and their smaller sister the ELS, may yet return to full fellowship within my lifetime.

Give me a couple examples please.

Sure thing. He might find Rome’s re-formulated position on Justification, as outlined in the JDDJ, to be more palatable than the borderline works-righteousness that had run rampant in the Church during his time. He might especially approve of the way Pope Benedict used to speak of Faith Alone. He’d most definitely be surprised by the Christian charity that popes display (it’s a stark contrast from the Medicis and Borgias…). Granted, he’d still take serious issue with some of the theology surrounding the Mass, and other things, but to see that Rome has seemingly moved Wittenberg’s way on some major points of the Reformation would certainly surprise him.

 

[Peter_J]

he might be a bit like Benedict

OK that makes sense: more of a Pope Emeritus than a sitting Pope.

Kidding. But seriously, you guys say that Luther isn’t your equivalent of a Pope … And yet you’re “Lutherans”.

 

[aidanbradypop]

OK that makes sense: more of a Pope Emeritus than a sitting Pope.

Kidding. But seriously, you guys say that Luther isn’t your equivalent of a Pope … And yet you’re “Lutherans”.

Are you Peterians?

 

[steido01]

But seriously, you guys say that Luther isn’t your equivalent of a Pope … And yet you’re “Lutherans”.

I’ve discussed the whole name thing before, so I’ll simply respond with a quote fitting for the day:

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy.
Thou art thyself.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Peter_J]

Are you Peterians?

Well, occasionally I’m “PeterJericus”.

But seriously , we Catholics (ICWR) have our Thomists, our Franciscans, our Dominicans, and our Benedictines … I might suggest that that is more the way you guys ought to use the words “Lutherans”, “Calvinists”, etc rather than the current usage. (Or at least I would suggest that, if it were any concern of mine. )

 

[aidanbradypop]

Well, occassionally I’m “PeterJericus”.

But seriously , we Catholics (ICWR) have our Thomists, our Franciscans, our Dominicans, and our Benedictines … I might suggest that that is more the way you guys ought to use the words “Lutherans”, “Calvinists”, etc rather than the current usage. (Or at least I would suggest that, if it were any concern of mine. )

So like I am an Evangelical Arminian?

 

[Peter_J]

Ah, Arminian. I didn’t even think of that one. (I thought of “Zwinglian” as another possible example, but decided not to include it. Of course there’s also “Wesleyan”.)

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ah, Arminian. I didn’t even think of that one. (I thought of “Zwinglian” as another possible example, but decided not to include it. Of course there’s also “Wesleyan”.)

Correct. There is Wesleyan Arminianism also.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Correct. There is Wesleyan Arminianism also.

Exactly and this just shows the complete absurdity of Protestantism and its literally infinite fracturing and ideas. Anything goes!

 

[aidanbradypop]

Exactly and this just shows the complete absurdity of Protestantism and its literally infinite fracturing and ideas. Anything goes!

I guess I am an absurd Evangelical Arminian then. I should get that on a bumper sticker!

 

[eightydeuce82]

I guess I am an absurd Evangelical Arminian then. I should get that on a bumper sticker!

I’m sure they make it. Id rather have a bumper sticker for the Church God created not a mishmash of human lines of theological thought based on a Catholic document 16 centuries later. That’s just me thou.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I’m sure they make it. Id rather have a bumper sticker for the Church God created not a mishmash of human lines of theological thought based on a Catholic document 16 centuries later. That’s just me thou.

I’m sure they make those as well.

 

[aidanbradypop]

They do make them.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)