The Fear of Hell

[fred_conty]

Sometimes we hear unbelievers say they cannot respect the idea of a God who would prepare for us a place of everlasting suffering. Such a God is petty and vindictive. How would you answer this critique of the Christian hell?

You mentioned unbelievers.

To clearify unbelievers, they are also christians who deny anyone is in hell, which is to say, they don’t believe in hell either because they feel noone goes there.

So to them I would like to present what St. Faustina said after an angel gave her a tour of hell. …She said that most of those in hell didn’t believe in it.

“I know the sun is shinning even when it isn’t shinning.” Christian hymn

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So to them I would like to present what St. Faustina said after an angel gave her a tour of hell. …She said that most of those in hell didn’t believe in it.

And evidently didn’t believe in heaven either.

 

[oldcelt]

You are still not getting it.

We damn ourselves to eternal torment because we could have chosen eternal joy and peace.

Oh, I get it. I just don’t believe it.

 

[inocente]

Sometimes we hear unbelievers say they cannot respect the idea of a God who would prepare for us a place of everlasting suffering. Such a God is petty and vindictive. How would you answer this critique of the Christian hell?

Christians don’t all share a belief in hell. An article at SEP explains why, starting with these propositions:

*"(1) All humans are equal objects of God’s unconditional love …]

(2) Almighty God will triumph in the end and successfully reconcile to himself each person whose reconciliation he sincerely wills or desires.

(3) Some humans will never be reconciled to God and will therefore remain separated from him forever.

If this set of propositions is logically inconsistent, as it surely is, then at least one proposition in the set is false.

…] the Augustinians, named after St. Augustine of Hippo (354–430), believe strongly in both the sovereignty of God’s will (proposition (2)) and the reality of an everlasting separation from God (proposition (3)), they finally reject the idea that God’s unconditional (or electing) love extends to all humans equally (proposition (1));

…] the Arminians, named after Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) for his opposition to the Augustinian understanding of limited election, believe in both God’s equal love for all (proposition (1)) and the reality of an everlasting separation from God (proposition (3)), they finally reject the idea that God’s desire to win over all will be fully satisfied (proposition (2));

…] the Christian universalists believe in both God’s equal love for all (proposition (1)) and the ultimate triumph of his loving will (proposition (2)), they finally reject altogether the idea of an everlasting separation from God (proposition (3)).

• plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/*

 

[Charlemagne_III]

inocente;12760671

• 1. 
     *]]Christians don’t all share a belief in hell. An article at SEP explains why, starting with these propositions:
     [/QUOTE]
     Do you believe in the hell described by Jesus?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Oh, I get it. I just don’t believe it.

Is it that you’d rather put the onus on God than on man?

 

[oldcelt]

Is it that you’d rather put the onus on God than on man?

Just the opposite…I don’t believe that god has anything to do with us. We create our own legacy through absolute free will.

 

[inocente]

Do you believe in the hell described by Jesus?

I posted an article which explains why some Christians do not believe in hell. According to the article, those who say that some will forever remain separated from God must necessarily believe either that God does not love everyone equally (that He has a chosen elect), or else that He will forever fail to win over some people (that His love is not omnipotent).

Seems straight forward. I don’t see how me going into my personal beliefs could stop you being confused by that article.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Seems straight forward. I don’t see how me going into my personal beliefs could stop you being confused by that article.

You are pretty straightforward about not wanting to take a stand. Thank you.

My understanding is that Baptists believe in the existence of heaven and hell.

So if one doesn’t believe in the existence of God, can one still be a Baptist?

Or are Baptists allowed to believe anything they want to believe?

If so, they have no creed?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Just the opposite…I don’t believe that god has anything to do with us. We create our own legacy through absolute free will.

Having created us, why doesn’t God have anything to do with us?

Or is it just that deists don’t want anything to do with God?

 

[oldcelt]

Having created us, why doesn’t God have anything to do with us?

Or is it just that deists don’t want anything to do with God?

No, we just recognize that the world as it is cannot be the product of a benevolent and interventionist creator.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

No, we just recognize that the world as it is cannot be the product of a benevolent and interventionist creator.

You’ve never once demonstrated how that is true. You’ve demonstrated how, in your opinion, it can’t be; but opinion is far removed from fact in many cases. Unless you can demonstrably prove your point, beyond how you -think- the world should be, then your claims hold no water.

 

[oldcelt]

You’ve never once demonstrated how that is true. You’ve demonstrated how, in your opinion, it can’t be; but opinion is far removed from fact in many cases. Unless you can demonstrably prove your point, beyond how you -think- the world should be, then your claims hold no water.

I’m afraid that if you can’t see the suffering, injustice, starvation, exploitation, and so on…there is little that I can do to help you. A God that is all good and possessing infallible forenowledge and immutable preordination would not have created such a system. I am therefore forced to conclude that god created the initial universe, and has had no interaction with it since.
Most religions, particularly the revealed religions, have tried for millenia to explain away these issues. I find all their answers to be wanting.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

No, we just recognize that the world as it is cannot be the product of a benevolent and interventionist creator.

But you haven’t explained why God is not benevolent or interventionist.

If you say God is not benevolent because life is not good, that flies in the face of people holding onto the life God gave them as long as they can.

If you say God should intervene to stop all suffering, you are asking for a tyrannical God who will not tolerate free will.

And by the way, both the Old Testament and New Testament declare, above all, that God is constantly intervening in human affairs, not so as to destroy human freedom, but to make men more free than they have made themselves.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I’m afraid that if you can’t see the suffering, injustice, starvation, exploitation, and so on…there is little that I can do to help you.

I am quite capable of seeing it, and do see it.

A God that is all good and possessing infallible forenowledge and immutable preordination would not have created such a system.

This is your personal opinion, but is not based in reality. We create most of our own evils, and you have failed to provide a substantial reason that it is God’s job to fix our messes.

I am therefore forced to conclude that god created the initial universe, and has had no interaction with it since.

You think this in spite of the fact that He’s revealed Himself throughout the ages… but of course, you’re under no obligation to acknowledge this revelation, that’s part of free will and all. Of course, people not believing in it or Him is part of what’s put us in the pace we find ourselves. It kind of circular that way.

Most religions, particularly the revealed religions, have tried for millenia to explain away these issues. I find all their answers to be wanting.

Explaining is different from explaining away. You may find their answers wanting, but that doesn’t change the fact that your views are based on your opinion of how you think the world should be, or what God should do. I’m quite happy with the Catholic Church, which look at the world as it is.

Regardless, I’m out for the night. Have a good one.

 

[oldcelt]

But you haven’t explained why God is not benevolent or interventionist.

If you say God is not benevolent because life is not good, that flies in the face of people holding onto the life God gave them as long as they can.

If you say God should intervene to stop all suffering, you are asking for a tyrannical God who will not tolerate free will.

And by the way, both the Old Testament and New Testament declare, above all, that God is constantly intervening in human affairs, not so as to destroy human freedom, but to make men more free than they have made themselves.

Both you and Prodigal are completely missing my point. I acknowledge that this world is our creation. I accept it as it is and even find great beauty a midst the confusion. My point is that an all-knowing (past, present future) etc., etc., God wouldn’t intentionally create such a mess…and according to you, he infallibly knew all this in advance.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Both you and Prodigal are completely missing my point. I acknowledge that this world is our creation. I accept it as it is and even find great beauty a midst the confusion. My point is that an all-knowing (past, present future) etc., etc., God wouldn’t intentionally create such a mess…and according to you, he infallibly knew all this in advance.

Then what did the deist God know about his Creation from outside of time? Nothing? If he knew nothing about his creation, you are stuck with a God who creates a universe without knowing what he is doing.

If he knew nothing, how paltry is this deist God? If he knew everything, you are mocking not only the Christian God, but also the deist God.

Come now John, Deism is just atheism dressed up to sound respectable when it is nothing of the sort.

 

[oldcelt]

Then what did the deist God know about his Creation from outside of time? Nothing? If he knew nothing about his creation, you are stuck with a God who creates a universe without knowing what he is doing.

If he knew nothing, how paltry is this deist God? If he knew everything, you are mocking not only the Christian God, but also the deist God.

Come now John, Deism is just atheism dressed up to sound respectable when it is nothing of the sort.

Except that we believe in a god who must have known enough to jump start everything. And you are speculating about the out of time attribute which, does not match with omnipresence.

 

[tonyrey]

In a previous post you implied that creation is continuous, not a once-for-all affair. In either case it seems very odd that the Creator doesn’t know what He is doing. Your idea of God seems to be an impersonal Source of energy.

In fact, John, your idea of God is so nebulous it is impossible to refute but that weakness also makes it incoherent and unconvincing. Agnostics at least profess to be completely in the dark - but their weakness is even more devastating: they ignore the reality of evil which you regard as evidence against divine love.

 

[inocente]

You are pretty straightforward about not wanting to take a stand. Thank you.

My understanding is that Baptists believe in the existence of heaven and hell.

So if one doesn’t believe in the existence of God, can one still be a Baptist?

Or are Baptists allowed to believe anything they want to believe?

If so, they have no creed?

Oh, I see your problem. You imagine that there’s some rulebook in the sky which says belief in God requires belief in hell. Where in heaven’s name did you get that rule?

I joined this thread to post an article from SEP which I thought you may find interesting. You’ve given no indication that you’ve bothered to read it. Do so and it will disabuse of your naive notion that all theists must believe whatever you believe.

Of course they don’t.

As I think I’ve told you many times before, the basic principles of the Baptist faith are freedom of conscience, freedom of worship, freedom of religion. We shall not be slaves to rulebooks invented by men, Baptists have no creed. We accept Christ as our personal savior, we are subjects of Christ alone, and in Christ we have our freedom.

Although if you look way back in my posts, I did say the Apostle’s Creed publicly here on some forgotten thread. I’ve never seen you do that, and it might be an idea if you repeated that Creed to yourself, as you appear to think it includes belief in hell. It does not. - vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P13.HTM

Give some indication that you have read and understood the article and I’ll discuss my beliefs further, but not before, I didn’t join the thread to play games.