The Fear of Hell

[Charlemagne_III]

If you think the doctrine of hell is more important than to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself, then that’s called legalism, something which made Jesus angry.

Jesus does not say the doctrine of hell is more important than loving our neighbor. He says the doctrine of hell is the consequence of failing to love God and our neighbor. Mattthew 25

"Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

And this shows us what made Jesus angry.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I understand. And if you believe it is wrong to have long hair, and you are doing it to sin against God it is a sin, even if its not your denomination. (do you understand what I am saying)?

That is why sin is tricky and different for everyone.

It sounds like you are specifically talking about malicious intent.

 

[rinnie]

It sounds like you are specifically talking about malicious intent.

To an extent. Rather it is to yourself or God or others. Hard to believe people could actually choose to hurt themselves huh? Unfortunately pain, fear, anxiety, lust, selfishness, I could go on and on, seems to contribute to one hurting themselves and others.

And it usually leads to some kind of sin, or results from it.

 

[inocente]

The doctrine of hell is the corollary of the commandment to love God.

I think there are sincere Christians who believe God is love and that love never fails, that it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres, and therefore love always wins in the end. And since God always prevails, no one spends an eternity cut off from His love.

But I recognize that there are those who believe that God’s love is not omnipotent, that in the end God fails.

 

[inocente]

I guess the answer would be on who is telling it. Like if the weather man says its going to rain today. One may say it is going to rain. The other may say precipitation.

But anyway what the Church teaches is the righteous who were held were in the bosom of Abraham who were to be delivered when Christ decended into hell. His death was of no avail to the damned.

Hell has many different names for it. Greek= Hades, Hebrew=Sheal. In the English language there are many different words we can use for hell.

As I stated before it depends on how the person chooses to us it.

I may say to you I am going to pick up my Mother from the airport tomorrow. And may say to the same person I am going to pick up Mom. To my daughter, you grandmother, etc.

Yes, but why does the English CCC have two different wordings for the Apostles’ Creed rather than one? If you were editor of the English CCC, what reason would you give for including two different wordings rather than one? I think I’ll give up asking as no one seems to know why.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, but why does the English CCC have two different wordings for the Apostles’ Creed rather than one? If you were editor of the English CCC, what reason would you give for including two different wordings rather than one? I think I’ll give up asking as no one seems to know why.

Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed? Homoousios became a consistent mark of Nicene orthodoxy to weed out the false teachers of iniquity. We have a few methods thus two creeds. Or did you mean two versions of the same apostles creed? Both are outlines of the Gospel through apostolic tradition.

 

[Lucy107]

I really don’t know what you consider religious people. Could you define?

Anyone who declares themselves to be a member of a religion.

You don’t have to be religious to know what peoples needs are. If so there would not be so many people who have to go to therapy to find out what they want or need or their problems are.

And its usually something they know but cannot face up to, or something that is so bad they convince themselves they have forgotten it and its eating them alive.

The problem is knowing what people need or want, its watching them deny it and destroy themselves and suffer avoiding it.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.

CS Lewis, “God in the Dock” (1948)

 

[rinnie]

I think there are sincere Christians who believe God is love and that love never fails, that it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres, and therefore love always wins in the end. And since God always prevails, no one spends an eternity cut off from His love.

But I recognize that there are those who believe that God’s love is not omnipotent, that in the end God fails.

While I agree no one ever is cut off from the love of God, many will spend eternity cut off from his presence because of their own free will of refusing to repent and obey him.

 

[rinnie]

Anyone who declares themselves to be a member of a religion.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.

CS Lewis, “God in the Dock” (1948)

True in so many ways.

 

[Lucy107]

While I agree no one ever is cut off from the love of God, many will spend eternity cut off from his presence because of their own free will of refusing to repent and obey him.

And the sad irony is that this might not be the standard atheists a la Richard Dawkins. Militant atheists as they may be, they couldn’t commit a mortal sin even if they wanted to, because they are too ignorant of theology for that.

It’s the atheists one can find in pews and pulpits, those that seem like the pillars of religion that have in them the potential for a deliberate refusal of God.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

To an extent. Rather it is to yourself or God or others. Hard to believe people could actually choose to hurt themselves huh?

Not really…

Unfortunately pain, fear, anxiety, lust, selfishness, I could go on and on, seems to contribute to one hurting themselves and others.

And it usually leads to some kind of sin, or results from it.

Okay, so when you use the word “sin” you are using it to refer to a concept similar to (but not quite the same as) “mens rea.” I’ll add that to my catalog of various concepts and rules to which people ascribe the word “sin.”

 

[Lucy107]

To an extent. Rather it is to yourself or God or others. Hard to believe people could actually choose to hurt themselves huh?

People don’t choose to hurt themselves.
But they probably have different values and priorities as you think they do or as you think they should have.

E.g. A person who cuts themselves, doesn’t do that to hurt themselves. They do it because it makes them feel good, and they don’t know any other way to find that kind of feeling good in some other way, or they don’t trust that it might be worth it or possible to look for that feeliing good some other way.

A drug addict doesn’t shoot posion up their veins because they would want to hurt themselves, but because it makes them feel good, and they don’t know any other way to find that kind of feeling good in some other way, or they don’t trust that it might be worth it or possible to look for that feeliing good some other way.

The doctrine of hell is the corollary of the commandment to love God.

How?
“Love God, or you’ll go to hell!”
-?

 

[rinnie]

And the sad irony is that this might not be the standard atheists a la Richard Dawkins. Militant atheists as they may be, they couldn’t commit a mortal sin even if they wanted to, because they are too ignorant of theology for that.

It’s the atheists one can find in pews and pulpits, those that seem like the pillars of religion that have in them the potential for a deliberate refusal of God./

Dawkins, a person who knows practically nothing about Philosophy of Science, even less then that about Theology or the History of Religion.

To believe anything he says you would have to accept to begin with in my personal opinion is:

l. You have no conscience.
2. You are truly a robot.
3. Ignorance because you want to be ignorant, you have no desire to even learn what others believe as truths.

 

[rinnie]

People don’t choose to hurt themselves.
But they probably have different values and priorities as you think they do or as you think they should have.

E.g. A person who cuts themselves, doesn’t do that to hurt themselves. They do it because it makes them feel good, and they don’t know any other way to find that kind of feeling good in some other way, or they don’t trust that it might be worth it or possible to look for that feeliing good some other way.

A drug addict doesn’t shoot posion up their veins because they would want to hurt themselves, but because it makes them feel good, and they don’t know any other way to find that kind of feeling good in some other way, or they don’t trust that it might be worth it or possible to look for that feeliing good some other way.

How?
“Love God, or you’ll go to hell!”
-?

But what is the point here, rather they choose to hurt themselves for reasons we cannot understand or even can understand at times, are you saying they have no choice, and are not hurting themselves?

And are you saying when someone shoots poison up their veins, they do not know that they are slowing killing themselves? I don’t buy that for a moment. And are you saying that they don’t have free will to ask for help? Again totally against the teaching of the RCC.

We are taught there is no sin that cannot be overcome with the grace of God.

BY the way, both examples proven.

 

[rinnie]

Not really…

Okay, so when you use the word “sin” you are using it to refer to a concept similar to (but not quite the same as) “mens rea.” I’ll add that to my catalog of various concepts and rules to which people ascribe the word “sin.”

Not at all. Although there are times it is possible, not usually. You are always conscience of sin, in the back of your mind. As I stated you know right from wrong.

Kind of like the world is today. The Pope said it best, the worst sin in this world is actually the denial that it truly exists.

Let me give you a few ways of the world. Get them before they get you. Beat them to the draw. If it feels good do it. No one can tell you what to think or feel, do what you want. As long as I am happy. I could go on and on. Money isn’t anything its the ONLY thing. (I must admit I find humor in that one).

What people do today is this, most anyway, or the world would be different, they either deny their sin, validate it. Very few are unaware of it, Of they can say that did not know. But deep down there is a Piece of God in everyone. That is one of the largest denial of all.

An example is this, I was going to get my own way, no matter what, Say I rob a bank, and I had no intention of killing the guard, well it got in my way, so! It was my choice to get money for my own intentions, he just got in the way so he had to go.

 

[rinnie]

People don’t choose to hurt themselves.
But they probably have different values and priorities as you think they do or as you think they should have.

E.g. A person who cuts themselves, doesn’t do that to hurt themselves. They do it because it makes them feel good, and they don’t know any other way to find that kind of feeling good in some other way, or they don’t trust that it might be worth it or possible to look for that feeliing good some other way.

A drug addict doesn’t shoot posion up their veins because they would want to hurt themselves, but because it makes them feel good, and they don’t know any other way to find that kind of feeling good in some other way, or they don’t trust that it might be worth it or possible to look for that feeliing good some other way.

How?
“Love God, or you’ll go to hell!”
-?

No offense, but if you did not Love God why would you want to have everlasting life with him? And why does that seem to be so offensive to you? God in heaven or hell without him. I do not understand why that seems so wrong.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

And the sad irony is that this might not be the standard atheists a la Richard Dawkins. Militant atheists as they may be, they couldn’t commit a mortal sin even if they wanted to, because they are too ignorant of theology for that.

This is a radical version of moral relativism.

Whoever you are, you certainly don’t think the scriptural position.

Atheism is the refusal to love God, and so it is self condemning.

There isn’t any greater sin than to refuse to love God because you say there is no God to love.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

But what is the point here, rather they choose to hurt themselves for reasons we cannot understand or even can understand at times, are you saying they have no choice, and are not hurting themselves?

There’s multiple motivations that can lead to this. One that comes to mind is depersonalization which can be triggered by stress, trauma, or neurological conditions. For some the feeling of being real is achieved through feeling pain and some prefer to feel pain than to feel like an inanimate object. There’s more to it than that, but that might be enough to get you started on understanding.

And are you saying when someone shoots poison up their veins, they do not know that they are slowing killing themselves?

This get’s into motivation theory. Often times there are multiple factors behind the motivation for someone’s behaviour. There may be awareness that a habit can eventually lead to life altering injury or death. But that might not be the objective of the person that is engaging in the behaviour. In the case of certain drugs one of the results may be temporary relief from from other condition within someone’s life. A recent study of addiction looked at why people that have been a pain killer that is similar to heroine in a hospital don’t generally become addicted and go looking for it after release from the hospital but others are addicted. It seems that what’s going on in one’s life emotionally is a significant factor.

Not at all. Although there are times it is possible, not usually. You are always conscience of sin, in the back of your mind. As I stated you know right from wrong.

There are behaviour prescriptions on which I’m sure many people within the same culture can agree, but I’m not sure that there’s going to be compatibility in what someone feels is right or wrong in the back of their mind. A recent example that came up in discussion here was a man that owned a pizza shop here in the Atlanta area that did an honor killing of his daughter. When the police arrive they were some what confused at him plainly stating that he killed her daughter without any and sign of fear, hesitation, regret, so on. I can’t say with confidence that he felt the honor killing was wrong in the back of his mind.

Let me give you a few ways of the world. Get them before they get you. Beat them to the draw. If it feels good do it. No one can tell you what to think or feel, do what you want.
…An example is this, I was going to get my own way, no matter what, Say I rob a bank, and I had no intention of killing the guard, well it got in my way, so! It was my choice to get money for my own intentions, he just got in the way so he had to go.

But that would establish mens rea pretty well.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

People don’t choose to hurt themselves.
But they probably have different values and priorities as you think they do or as you think they should have.

E.g. A person who cuts themselves, doesn’t do that to hurt themselves. They do it because it makes them feel good, and they don’t know any other way to find that kind of feeling good in some other way, or they don’t trust that it might be worth it or possible to look for that feeliing good some other way.

A drug addict doesn’t shoot posion up their veins because they would want to hurt themselves, but because it makes them feel good, and they don’t know any other way to find that kind of feeling good in some other way, or they don’t trust that it might be worth it or possible to look for that feeliing good some other way.

People do choose to hurt themselves. They choose to hurt themselves because they have given themselves to an evil life or to despair. People commit suicide at the devil’s urging, not God’s.

People choose to have nothing to do with God at the devil’s urging. What they will not admit is that they have everything to do with the devil. So having made that decision, respecting everyone’s free will, God lets the devil take them. God is not so tyrannical that he will force people to love Him. He gives everyone’s sufficient grace to love Him, but many refuse that grace.

Fortunately, at the end of life many atheists come to their senses and reach out to God because they are tired of reaching out to the devil and want a chance to be judged accordingly.

 

[rinnie]

There’s multiple motivations that can lead to this. One that comes to mind is depersonalization which can be triggered by stress, trauma, or neurological conditions. For some the feeling of being real is achieved through feeling pain and some prefer to feel pain than to feel like an inanimate object. There’s more to it than that, but that might be enough to get you started on understanding.

This get’s into motivation theory. Often times there are multiple factors behind the motivation for someone’s behaviour. There may be awareness that a habit can eventually lead to life altering injury or death. But that might not be the objective of the person that is engaging in the behaviour. In the case of certain drugs one of the results may be temporary relief from from other condition within someone’s life. A recent study of addiction looked at why people that have been a pain killer that is similar to heroine in a hospital don’t generally become addicted and go looking for it after release from the hospital but others are addicted. It seems that what’s going on in one’s life emotionally is a significant factor.

There are behaviour prescriptions on which I’m sure many people within the same culture can agree, but I’m not sure that there’s going to be compatibility in what someone feels is right or wrong in the back of their mind. A recent example that came up in discussion here was a man that owned a pizza shop here in the Atlanta area that did an honor killing of his daughter. When the police arrive they were some what confused at him plainly stating that he killed her daughter without any and sign of fear, hesitation, regret, so on. I can’t say with confidence that he felt the honor killing was wrong in the back of his mind.

[SIGN]But that would establish mens rea pretty well.

]

But it does not take away the ability to know right from wrong, it only takes away the choice to acknowledge it.