The Fear of Hell

[rinnie]

While I agree that some people can have mental disorders, and they can lead a person to act against their own free will, that is not what we are talking about here.

Sin is doing harm to oneself or others knowingly, and still doing it. And knowing it is wrong, regardless of the circumstances.

As I said, I choose to rob a bank, I am in despair, full of anxiety, full of fear of losing my home, family, etc. Regardless of the feelings that drove me to the sin, in no way departs from my knowing right from wrong, and free will to rob the bank.

Regardless of your own human emotions, that granted play a part in your choices, in no way takes away ones ability to know right from wrong.

You cannot compare a person who is mentally insane to a person who is temporary insane. When someone is insane, they are totally out of their right mind. If you are not in your right mind, you cannot even begin to think rationally.

I am speaking of people who are in their right mind. People can be under unthinkable conditions and still have a rational mind.

 

[rinnie]

By the way I also agree with you how some people can beat addictions easier then others. I do not disagree with this, and I do accept some people can beat a chemical addiction easier then others.

Is it in their DNA? Possibly, could it be their faith? Possibly. But I do agree it would be wrong to questions ones faith, as much as it would be to questions ones DNA.

But what I am saying as I said before there is an out. The sin is not in the addiction, the sin is ones selfishness to put the fix, the gain, above all else, and everyone else.

 

[Lucy107]

And are you saying when someone shoots poison up their veins, they do not know that they are slowing killing themselves?

Of course they know that.
But it doesn’t matter to them.

And are you saying that they don’t have free will to ask for help?

They have some free will in the matter, sure.
But not the hope that asking for help will actually bring help.

Chances are they have asked for help before, many times, knocked on many doors. And didn’t get any help.

We are taught there is no sin that cannot be overcome with the grace of God.

Yes, that’s what, you, the insiders believe. Although, not even all insiders believe that.

No offense, but if you did not Love God why would you want to have everlasting life with him? And why does that seem to be so offensive to you? God in heaven or hell without him. I do not understand why that seems so wrong.

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[Lucy107]

This is a radical version of moral relativism.

Whoever you are, you certainly don’t think the scriptural position.

Atheism is the refusal to love God, and so it is self condemning.

There isn’t any greater sin than to refuse to love God because you say there is no God to love.

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."62

For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
Rom 2:24

People do choose to hurt themselves. They choose to hurt themselves because they have given themselves to an evil life or to despair. People commit suicide at the devil’s urging, not God’s.

People choose to have nothing to do with God at the devil’s urging. What they will not admit is that they have everything to do with the devil. So having made that decision, respecting everyone’s free will, God lets the devil take them. God is not so tyrannical that he will force people to love Him. He gives everyone’s sufficient grace to love Him, but many refuse that grace.

Fortunately, at the end of life many atheists come to their senses and reach out to God because they are tired of reaching out to the devil and want a chance to be judged accordingly.

But what I am saying as I said before there is an out. The sin is not in the addiction, the sin is ones selfishness to put the fix, the gain, above all else, and everyone else.

Philantrophic people lose all sense of humanity. It’s their distinguishing characteristic.
Oscar Wilde

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Yes, that’s what, you, the insiders believe. Although, not even all insiders believe that.

Which insiders in the Catholic Church do not believe that we are given grace sufficient to overcome sin?

It is an essential doctrine of Catholicism that anyone can be saved under the right conditions of repentance.

 

[Lucy107]

Which insiders in the Catholic Church do not believe that we are given grace sufficient to overcome sin?

Some so-called “cafeteria Catholics,” then all those who declare to be Catholic, but who nevertheless have all kinds of problems with the faith (as numerous threads here evidence). Then all those who declare to be Catholics, but who are very mean toward others - those Catholics who don’t believe that other people are given sufficient grace to overcome sin. A good portion of the conversations here would not take place if people would actually believe that sin can be overcome by grace.

It is an essential doctrine of Catholicism that anyone can be saved under the right conditions of repentance.

That’s the theory. The practice looks otherwise.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

*2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. *

Psalms 14:1

“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is good.”

The Catechism says the imputability of this offence can be “significantly diminished.” It does not say it can be wiped out. Catholics may share in the imputability of the offence by their own actions that scandalize them as hypocrites, or false representatives of the Church, for examples.

 

[Lucy107]

Psalms 14:1

“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is good.”

The Catechism says the imputability of this offence can be “significantly diminished.” It does not say it can be wiped out. Catholics may share in the imputability of the offence by their own actions that scandalize them as hypocrites, or false representatives of the Church, for examples.

I do wish - and I realize it is an utterly vain wish - that you people would have a bit more empathy. It would actually help everyone.

For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
Rom 2:24

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Some so-called “cafeteria Catholics,” then all those who declare to be Catholic, but who nevertheless have all kinds of problems with the faith (as numerous threads here evidence). Then all those who declare to be Catholics, but who are very mean toward others - those Catholics who don’t believe that other people are given sufficient grace to overcome sin. A good portion of the conversations here would not take place if people would actually believe that sin can be overcome by grace.

That’s the theory. The practice looks otherwise.

Maybe you are not looking at it correctly?

You have not given examples of Catholics who do not believe in the doctrine of sufficient grace. You have only given examples of Catholics who are not obedient to the teachings of the Church. There are many such, and always have been. Paul complained about them often. Many Catholics think like Protestants. And isn’t that how Protestantism got started by the Catholic priest Martin Luther?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I do wish - and I realize it is an utterly vain wish - that you people would have a bit more empathy. It would actually help everyone.

For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
Rom 2:24

We have plenty of empathy. We just don’t let empathy make fools of us.

 

[Lucy107]

You have not given examples of Catholics who do not believe in the doctrine of sufficient grace.

For that I would have to give names. That would be against forum rules.

But I’ve described such Catholics. If you look, you can recognize them.

We have plenty of empathy.

You most certainly don’t.
You don’t even try to place yourself into another’s shoes. You just condemn them.

We just don’t let empathy make fools of us.

That’s probably because you think that empathy is something lovey-dovey or some such.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The atheist wants to die alone without God. Here is the antidote, with plenty of empathy thrown in by Johnny Cash.

youtube.com/watch?v=4udoRz-m2Dw

 

[Charlemagne_III]

For that I would have to give names. That would be against forum rules.

But I’ve described such Catholics. If you look, you can recognize them.

You most certainly don’t.
You don’t even try to place yourself into another’s shoes. You just condemn them.

That’s probably because you think that empathy is something lovey-dovey or some such.

Well, now you are just being downright insulting, so you have already violated forum rules. So much for your empathy. I will not be reading any more of your posts. :sad_bye:

 

[rinnie]

Of course they know that.
But it doesn’t matter to them.

They have some free will in the matter, sure.
But not the hope that asking for help will actually bring help.

Chances are they have asked for help before, many times, knocked on many doors. And didn’t get any help.

Yes, that’s what, you, the insiders believe. Although, not even all insiders believe that.

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

You said Love God or go to hell! is that not what you said? I was referring to that statement.

 

[Lucy107]

You said Love God or go to hell! is that not what you said? I was referring to that statement.

Then you took it out of context, along with disregarding the question mark. Here’s the post again:

The doctrine of hell is the corollary of the commandment to love God.

I asked the other poster how the doctrine of hell is the corollary of the commandment to love God.

 

[rinnie]

Some so-called “cafeteria Catholics,” then all those who declare to be Catholic, but who nevertheless have all kinds of problems with the faith (as numerous threads here evidence). Then all those who declare to be Catholics, but who are very mean toward others - those Catholics who don’t believe that other people are given sufficient grace to overcome sin. A good portion of the conversations here would not take place if people would actually believe that sin can be overcome by grace.

That’s the theory. The practice looks otherwise.

Why does the practice look otherwise.

If you go to a Priest, confess your sin, are truly sorry for the sin, and truly repent the sin it is forgiven.

That’s it slate wiped clean, but there is one more problem, it is not enough to be sorry, and confess, the hard part is truly living the rest of your life not repeating the sin.

For some they confess, repent, and never repeat it. For others its a work in progress. But the main point of repentance is wanting to be rid of the sin, and praying and asking for the Priest to pray for you, that the Grace of God can help you not crave the sin any longer. And it is hard. but possible.

 

[Lucy107]

Why does the practice look otherwise.

If you go to a Priest, confess your sin, are truly sorry for the sin, and truly repent the sin it is forgiven.

That’s it slate wiped clean, but there is one more problem, it is not enough to be sorry, and confess, the hard part is truly living the rest of your life not repeating the sin.

For some they confess, repent, and never repeat it. For others its a work in progress. But the main point of repentance is wanting to be rid of the sin, and praying and asking for the Priest to pray for you, that the Grace of God can help you not crave the sin any longer. And it is hard. but possible.

How is this relevant to outsiders to Catholicism?

 

[rinnie]

How is this relevant to outsiders to Catholicism?

Where did I say it was relevant to outsiders of Catholicism? I commented on what was said.

The Doctrine of Catholicism is that everyone can be saved under the right conditions.

You said in theory in practice it looks otherwise. How does the Practice look otherwise?

 

[Aloysium]

How is this relevant to outsiders to Catholicism?

I take it that it has no meaning for you.
The reality is that Jesus Christ died for all our sins, whether you are aware of it or not.
I think you may know what love is as an act and you may be aware where you have not acted in a loving way towards others.
If you are sorry and try to behave differently, God is aware of this.
Because you have love in your heart, you should be saved.
If there is no love, if you have hurt others and could care less, it is a different story.

BTW - your signature
“For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” - Rom. 2:24”
is supposed to be applied to oneself.
The matter would be, to what extent have you been hypocritical and thereby brought those truths that you believe, into disrepute.
If by it, you want to criticize a bunch of sinners trying to be good, doing the will of God as best they can, well knock yourself out; have fun.

 

[rinnie]

Of course they know that.
But it doesn’t matter to them.

They have some free will in the matter, sure.
But not the hope that asking for help will actually bring help.

Chances are they have asked for help before, many times, knocked on many doors. And didn’t get any help.

Yes, that’s what, you, the insiders believe. Although, not even all insiders believe that.

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

It does not matter to them? And you know this how?

SOME how free will, others do not? And your proof others have not free will?

And your proof that they asked for help and were refused?

And you know what anyone truly believes? And your magic power is?? Reading of minds?

You seem to know much, but show no proof of how this knowledge came about.

The Church teaches no one knows a heart but God. You seem to indicate you know how other feel. You know what they truly believe. I ask how can this be?