The "Fruit of the Vine" versus wine.

[KathleenGee]

Sam,

Jesus also said He is the Bread of Life…bread is a more predominant in the world than grapes.

The Church will not use grape juice. And you will not be forced to do anything against your will.

Remember, in the Transubstantiation, we no longer eat bread or consume wine. We are now receiving the Manna from Heaven, the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ…along with His soul and divinity…that transcend alcohol and its effects.

That is the focus of your belief. And yet you can abstain from alcohol.

To make amends with the Jewish Christians, it was decided a long time ago that the customs we would keep of Judaism would be to abstain from blood, from eating animals sacrificed to idols, and from eating of animal carcasses. We would abstain from excess of indulging in foods, and any other inordinate desire of the flesh…and instead embrace monogramy, truthfulness, and centering our lives on the life of Jesus.

 

[vsedriver]

So shall I understand from that if a Catholic Church in a remote area run out of wine for any reason (earthquake, flood, war, etc), then that Church is prohibited from using grape juice in its Eucharist?

that is correct. Grape juice would never be substituted for sacramental wine. Of course if you have grape juice on hand you only have to wait a while for it to ferment and become wine.

 

[Esdra]

Man, if I have understood you correctly, I can 100% agree to the sentence in bold.
This is the same as my dad always keeps saying.
Actually, this is the first time, I have read that from a Catholic here at CAF. Normally people say, “Christ has founded the CC and has and will guide it into ALL truth”.

But probably, I have understood you not correctly.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic Church contains the full deposit of faith in the Fullness of Truth…Protestants are our separated brethren, and most deny the sacraments except baptism and matrimony…but matrimony is a sacrament and permanent in Catholicism.

The Catholic Church recognizes a Christian marriage of permanent Protestant unions. And people also have to realize that it is the couple who marry each other before a witness…a priest or minister. They make solemn vows before God in Christ.

Many Protestants believe in most of the Creed, but they reject a universal and instituted Church. We do because we believe the faith Christ invites us to is intended for all mankind, and the need for discipline and authority to insure the message and life of Christ is secured for each generation any where, any place.

To be a Catholic, you have to accept discipline and submitting to a higher authority. So many times, our own passions and emotions deceive us. That is one of the benefits of having a neighbor is that they point out our blind spots.

And the Church raises the bar, always assisting us to grow to our potential in the Lord…

 

[Esdra]

No, from my talks to my dad I know that he believes ALL Churches together have the full Truth. Thus every single denomination has only bits of the truth.
And actually this also links to Jesus prayer, “21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.”
As I already have pointed out my dad is a very strong believer in Vaticanum II. He there saw great efforts towards eucumenical Christianity. Especially the steps towards the Lutherans (and Reformed) in Vaticanum II was well recieved by him. I guess he always has sympathizised with them.
He believes that all Churches (and denominations) should work together and come together again. Maybe in the sense of a Big Tent Christianity. (There has been an intersting discussion about that topic last year here on CAF.)

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes,…the deacon is thinking it would be best if we returned to this norm…especially since here confirmation is reserved for teens…developmentally they are in a different place then as a teen.

I remember as a 6 year old child recognizing the reality of Christ in the Eucharist and knew the consequences of not receiving worthily.

We visited the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. My university age son was 4 years old at the time. He followed us up, and the priest gave him Holy Communion. When he received, his eyes got so big…he was in shock…

"Mom, I felt so much power!!.."and he said so most seriously…literally, the reception profoundly affected him…a 4 year old child…he did not formally receive until he was 8 years old.

 

[po18guy]

So shall I understand from that if a Catholic Church in a remote area run out of wine for any reason (earthquake, flood, war, etc), then that Church is prohibited from using grape juice in its Eucharist?

Yes, that is true. For a Sacrament to have its force and effect, it must be done in the proper form and using the proper physical matter. All baptism must be done using water alone, and it must be done “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. To use something other than water, or some other words, invalidates the sacrament. The Sacrament must follow exactly the words and teaching of Christ, since they are His commands.

And, so it is with all of the Sacraments. If there is no wine, then His Blood will not be offered. In an emergency, leavened bread might be used, and it will be a valid Sacrament, but will also be illicit - or outside of the discipline of the Church. This is because leavened bread still contains all of the elements of unleavened bread, but is adulterated by the addition of leavening. In the case of grape juice, it does not contain alcohol, which is one of the components of wine. Since it lacks a vital component, it cannot become the Blood of Christ. A Priest who does this (uses leavened bread or grape juice) must confess it to his confessor. However, while both are illicit, the leavened bread is valid, while the grape juice is not.

 

[Esdra]

Actually, I don’t really believe that dad has missunderstood Vaticanum II. He studied theology ('though didn’t finish at because when he did so one had to become a deacon and thus live in celibacy. And he couldn’t really decide with full purpose of heart to live celibate…). I think it is more likely that I missunderstood him somehow. And I also must point out that I have never read Vaticanum II so far.
Well, for me Jesus didn’t lie, as I don’t believe in a visible Church. All denominations/Churches believing and proclaiming in Christ are one (univisible) Church.
But concerning my dad I maybe should also add that he always has been a free thinker.

Ecumenism is a valid goal but it must not be based on false ideas or merely the desire to feel good. How groups with wildly varying views on numerous subjects would unite is questionable. The Catholic Church teaches a number of subjects are not negotiable. Such as the fact that abortion is always a moral evil and that homosexuality is always disordered. Ultimately when groups with contrasting views try and square that with Catholicism Big Tent Christianiy becomes merely the meaningless soundbite it always has been.

I can go with the abortion thing, as well as that homosexuality being disordered. And, frankly, I guess with these specific two points all Evangelicals (in the sense of Baptists, Mennonites, Pentecostals etc. Or simply ‘Evangelical’ as a counterpart to ‘Mainline Protestant Churches’. [Man, it was hard to for me to learn about the Protestant Churches in the US. That’s a complicated matter!]) can agree.

I didn’t undestand the sentence in bold, sorry.

 

[po18guy]

I am not trying to steer Sam toward a false communion. (Btw., from my point of view the Protestants don’t have “false communion”. But that’s just my personal opinion.)

I understand your opinion, but cannot understand how a communion that differers from what Christ commanded is somehow “valid”.

Btw, he posted his question in the non-Catholic forum of CAF and thus I assume that he is also interested in the opinion of other denominations than Catholic and Orthodox concerning this matter.

There must be 33,000+ protestant sites that he can go to, if he is interested in the bewildering variety of beliefs in protestantism, wouldn’t you say?

I nowhere wrote that he has to go to a Protestant denomination or so. (Despite the fact that Protestantism isn’t really an option for him as he himself has stated in this thread. 'Though that’s sad IMO. I think you shouldn’t exclude certain denominations when searching “the Truth” [Which is very subjective, IMHO!].)

Well, atheism is also a valid option, but you don’t lead him there, do you? Since Sam is Muslim, perhaps that is why he posted it here. Here is the thing: The Holy Sprit clearly lead him away from his former faith and directly into Christianity via this Catholic website. Should we therefore introduce thousands of different protestant variations in belief to him. That is not what he is asking for, and not what he should receive.

I do not want to derail this thread further, but let us keep the message pure to a Muslim who has seen the light of Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

Esdra,

If you don’t believe in a visible church…well then what is it you do believe in?

Ours centers on the Word Made Flesh. The 7 sacraments are concrete. There is nothing to debate or argue, you either believe sacraments are tangible signs with the inner life of Christ within or you don’t.

Faith that is based only on words sets itself up to arbitration and continual dismantling by others who disagree.

True faith also has the value or quality of certitude.

There is a book out by Fr Thomas DuBay, Marist, “Faith and Certitude”, and he explains some of the problems people have in why they can’t believe in the Church and sometimes it all boils down to authority. They do not believe any human being like themselves, was given authority to decide in God about Christian life in the Church.

 

[Esdra]

I understand your opinion, but cannot understand how a communion that differers from what Christ commanded is somehow “valid”.

If you go strictly by the bible actually only the Baptists and the Pentecostals (and similar groups) who use grape juice instead of wine “invalid Eucharist”. IMO.
Did you know that i.e. Lutherans use wine and even unleavened bread? And I am not sure but actually I also believe to know that also the Reformed/Presbyterians do so.
But for me the Lord’s Supper is a “remembrance meal”. Nothing more, but also nothing less.

There must be 33,000+ protestant sites that he can go to, if he is interested in the bewildering variety of beliefs in protestantism, wouldn’t you say?

Well, as I know that he isn’t intersted in Protestantism at all this is irrelevant.

Well, atheism is also a valid option, but you don’t lead him there, do you? Since Sam is Muslim, perhaps that is why he posted it here. Here is the thing: The Holy Sprit clearly lead him away from his former faith and directly into Christianity via this Catholic website. Should we therefore introduce thousands of different protestant variations in belief to him. That is not what he is asking for, and not what he should receive.

Actually, if he really wants to, he can go as far as I am concerned. I here trust firmly in God because only He can attract him. We as humans can in the end only tell him about Jesus and Christianity. But God has to and also will gladly move his heart to Him (Is this a correct English sentence?)

I do not want to derail this thread further, but let us keep the message pure to a Muslim who has seen the light of Christ.

Which is glad and I am really happy for Sam! Whatever choice he makes concerning Church/denomination.

Well po18guy, this thread is already so derailed… This doesn’t matter anymore!

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,

If you don’t believe in a visible church…well then what is it you do believe in?

I believe in the unvisible Church consisting of ALL believers of Christ who are united by Him. As He is our saviour and redeemer and our Lord. And this goes for ALL Churches and even denominations.

Ours centers on the Word Made Flesh. The 7 sacraments are concrete. There is nothing to debate or argue, you either believe sacraments are tangible signs with the inner life of Christ within or you don’t.

There are IMO only two Sacraments: Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
And yes, they are tanigble signs.

Faith that is based only on words sets itself up to arbitration and continual dismantling by others who disagree.

At least my faith is not based on “words” but on THE word, the Holy Bible.

True faith also has the value or quality of certitude.

I don’t have the feeling that the Baptist Church I am attending is “uncertain”. (?)

There is a book out by Fr Thomas DuBay, Marist, “Faith and Certitude”, and he explains some of the problems people have in why they can’t believe in the Church and sometimes it all boils down to authority. They do not believe any human being like themselves, was given authority to decide in God about Christian life in the Church.

Sounds logical to me. Jesus is the head of His Church. And actually, didn’t the whole Reformation come up because of the Catholic authority at that time (16-18th century AD)? As far as I know they lived a quite “unchristian” life.

 

[Esdra]

If you don’t just talk to a mainline protestant and other Liberal Protestant Churches, IMO, you will always find agreement concerning the two specific points above.
But actually, I also know of “liberal” Catholics who even would argue with you concerning abortion! - Okay they are so to speak “officially” not Catholic anymore, as they don’t stick to the doctrine.

But even between you and me we’ve seen where we would have many points of contention. I think we have managed to discuss them in a honest and generally respecful way but they are real differences on essential areas.

Yes, it’s really nice discussing with you. You are also honest and respectful.

 

[Esdra]

No, I didn’t know that. And what happens then if you excommunicate yourself? Is there also a kind of formal part, or how does the bishop know?
Because if none knows, those people could simply go on to mass and even recieve Communion. (I mean if they are at the point to support abortion, I think they also don’t really care that they, if excommunicated, wouldn’t be allowed to recieve Eucharist?

 

[po18guy]

If you go strictly by the bible actually only the Baptists and the Pentecostals (and similar groups) who use grape juice instead of wine “invalid Eucharist”.
But for me the Lord’s Supper is a “remembrance meal”. Nothing more, but also nothing less.

First, Jesus gave Eucharistic authority only to the twelve - not to all. Only the Catholic and Orthodox have such authority today. In your community, you do this to remember, while Catholics and Orthodox actually eat His Body and drink His Blood - just as He commanded. He said “Do this in remembrance” not do this as a remembrance. Big difference. And, what is the “Do this” that He spoke of? He did not say “bread” and “wine”, but “My Body” and “Blood”. It has to change to be even a valid remembrance. Jesus is the Paschal Lamb. The lamb had to be eaten, not simply remembered. And, it was lamb, not chicken.

Well, as I know that he isn’t intersted in Protestantism at all this is irrelevant.

So, why keep mentioning it as an option? Just as I invite Sam to examine the Catholic faith, so also do I invite you to seek the truth.

Actually, if he really wants to, he can go as far as I am concerned. I here trust firmly in God because only He can attract him. We as humans can in the end only tell him about Jesus and Christianity. But God has to and also will gladly move his heart to Him (Is this a correct English sentence?)

You are correct - but God has chosen and built One Church for that purpose. All others are derivative and lack something of the original.

 

[KathleenGee]

Esdra,

Baptism incorporates us into the mystical Body of Christ. But it does not initiate us into His Church in itself.

The Eucharist has been the center and summit of faith for 2,000 years in the Apostolic tradition, the Orthodox also tracing their origins to some of the Apostles.

Protestantism threw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak by rejecting the Church, rejecting the Holy Spirit working through so many people and many years in praying and discerning which books were to be canon for the Bible, not formally reciting together in the assembly the Nicene/Apostles Creed at weekly gatherings, the license to divorce and thus bring about the breakdown of the family, to facilitating secularism in Europe where now man makes himself and his feelings and his passions his god.

There is great worry in the Church that by 2050, Europe could be Muslim.

The Church is the Bride of Christ – that has its code of theology of the True Christ, the 7 sacraments, Sacred Scripture understood from the context of its whole – rather than parts divorced that unfortunately lead to new divisions and denominations vs Christ calling us to be one, and our Creed, our catechism of morality of prayer, our liturgy and its norms, canon law and governance of all the different kinds of people, clergy, religious congregations, associations and apostolates in many different races and languages, our spirituality and various forms of prayers.

All exist in and for Christ, defined and administrated through human discipline. We may seek to grow in holiness, but if we try to grow in doubt and dissension and disregard, following our own whims and fancies, we will never achieve a higher spiritual plane because we are following our will and looking at things constantly from our own perspectives.

My pastor told me alot of good Christians cannot take a step further that takes them fully into the Catholic Church because they do not like the discipline. My father was in the Benedictine seminary for two years, but found out he did not have a calling. Our Italian pastor, we the only Irish in an Italian mission parish, wanted my father to be his deacon, but he did not have the health and stamina to do so. But he filled our home with such good and solid books. He told me it takes an act of faith to not only believe in Jesus, but to also believe in Christ’s Catholic Church.

We are to look at faith and not dwell on those who do scandal because their behaviors are so dangerous they can destroy our faith. As Christ said, those who cause scandal need a millstone around their neck and dropped into the deepest part of the sea.

 

[Sam_777]

Yes, that is true. For a Sacrament to have its force and effect, it must be done in the proper form and using the proper physical matter. All baptism must be done using water alone, and it must be done “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. To use something other than water, or some other words, invalidates the sacrament. The Sacrament must follow exactly the words and teaching of Christ, since they are His commands.

And, so it is with all of the Sacraments. If there is no wine, then His Blood will not be offered. In an emergency, leavened bread might be used, and it will be a valid Sacrament, but will also be illicit - or outside of the discipline of the Church. This is because leavened bread still contains all of the elements of unleavened bread, but is adulterated by the addition of leavening. In the case of grape juice, it does not contain alcohol, which is one of the components of wine. Since it lacks a vital component, it cannot become the Blood of Christ. A Priest who does this (uses leavened bread or grape juice) must confess it to his confessor. However, while both are illicit, the leavened bread is valid, while the grape juice is not.

It’s clear now, thank you.

 

[Sam_777]

FYI:
New U.S. Dietary Guidelines.
“For some Americans, drink less alcohol”

 

[KathleenGee]

Yummy…looks good, Sam…

We have crabbies, clammies, shrimps, salmon, trout, and bass. We used to have alot of smelt…little fish and when you fry them, they were so good.

We also had a man who owned a restaurant and called himself ‘Captain’. When he got older, he said he was going to retire and take off with his million ‘clams’. Unfortunately, and this happens from time to time, the Lord took him instead.

The Europeans drink and approach alcohol differently. My uncle owned the first beer brewery in his town. He would bring us fresh crab from the spit and big loaves of French bread and beer for my dad, and we would feast!

He would take my siblings and I around the block in his empty beer truck.

But no drunkenness allowed!!

Europeans approach alcohol differently…thinking of the French and Italians…I had water for dinner in Italy, and they would put a few drops of wine in to change the taste of their water…and alot of good…and good company!

 

[agent_grey]

my understanding is that wine and grape juice where by and large the same thing. So to interpret grape juice is correct and to interpret wine is also correct.

ALL that matters is that the wine/grape juice becomes the literal blood shed by christ while being in the visible form of wine/grape juice. If the wine/grape juice does not actually become the literal blood shed by christ then you gravely sin. Continue to return and you blashemy the Holy sprit(mark of the beast).