The morally emasculated: Death for Death Penalty Opponents

[ansel123]

vern humphrey:

Then TAKE the training – when you volunteer, it will be provided by the Bureau of Prisons, free of charge.

God has called me to take a different path in life. I respect the job that corrections officers do. They are aware of the risks they face and are highly trained to do their jobs. To suggest that just anyone could step in and take their place is disrespectful.
vern humphrey:

Did you miss the point that he killed THREE people – in THREE separate incidents? And each time he got a life sentence without parole?

And for some strange reason, after receiving two sentences of life without parole for two separate murders, he was not deterred from killing Merle Clutts!

Although the death penalty would clearly have prevented Clutts’ murder, it seems that changed prison policies could also have prevented his murder. If a prisoner is so dangerous, why does he have contact with other prisoners? There are penal tools to deal with violence in prison. The death penalty is not necessary. We need to give the corrections system the resources it needs to carry out the job properly.
vern humphrey:

Church teachings are one thing, your teachings are another. I have shown how dangerous inmates can be – and how corrections officials place their lives on the line guarding these people.

I encourage you to read the Catechism, the encyclical Evangelium Vitae, the position of the US Bishops, and this article by Cardinal Schoenborn, who is the director of the Catechism and not considered liberal by any measure:

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Dossier/9-10-98/article.html

These aren’t my teachings in the sense that I created them, but they are teachings I follow because I am Catholic.

 

[Binney]

I was never a proponent of the death penalty. These days I am even more convinced that I don’t believe in it because my young daughter is sharing with me what she is learning about psychology in college. People who commit these terrible crimes are sick and in need of help not our condemnation.
All those in favor of the death penalty on this forum should consider prison ministry. Even if you don’t volunteer and be a prison minister consider praying for those who are brave enough to.

 

[rastell]

ansel123:

Pro-life means pro-life across the board.

Phrases like this bother me. They are often used by pro-abortion people to put pro-liers on the spot and push pro-lifers to dilute their message, loose supporters, and divide up their funds. The death penalty can USUALLY be wrong (as the Church teaches) but abortion is ALWAYS wrong (as the Church also teaches)

I’ll devote 1/2 my time and money to fighting the death penalty and 1/2 of my time to fighting abortion when either of the following occurs:

1. The number of people executed in the U.S. reaches 1,500,000 per year (the current number of unborn babies killed)

or

2. The number of abortions drops to 70 per year (the number of killers executed in the US each year)

 

[Lisa_N]

THere are circumstances where death is the only alternative if society is not safe while the person lives. Aside from the 'Tommy the Terrible" kind, there are those who through contacts on the inside can arrange drug deals, murders, and terrorism. We know now that some of the previously jailed terrorists (the “Blind Sheik”) were able to get messages out through their attorneys or others and continue to carry out their plots. Organized crime figures and drug kingpins are also able to work from inside. We run against the cruel and unusual punishment issue if we isolate the person with no contact. So there aren’t a lot of alternatives.

So while it would be rare, certainly there will be reasons to keep this punishment on the books.

 

[rastell]

Lisa N:

We run against the cruel and unusual punishment issue if we isolate the person with no contact. So there aren’t a lot of alternatives.

So while it would be rare, certainly there will be reasons to keep this punishment on the books.

Maybe the definition of “cruel and unusual punishment” should be revisited.

 

[ansel123]

rastell:

Phrases like this bother me. They are often used by pro-abortion people to put pro-liers on the spot and push pro-lifers to dilute their message, loose supporters, and divide up their funds. The death penalty can USUALLY be wrong (as the Church teaches) but abortion is ALWAYS wrong (as the Church also teaches)

I would ask you not to insinuate that I am pro-choice, because that is the furtherest thing from the truth. When did we get so suspicious of one another in our Church?

First, my phrase was inspired by the phrase “consistent ethic of life,” which can be attributed to our previous Holy Father.

I also think Cardinal Bernadin put it best when he said:

“Surely we can all agree that the taking of human life in abortion is not the same as failing to protect human dignity against hunger. But having made that distinction, let us not fail to make the point that both are moral issues.”

The death penalty is not only a moral issue, but its also a life issue. We agree that abortion is always wrong, but we should also agree that the death penalty is also wrong in the majority of cases where it has been imposed. You say “usually wrong” - the Catechism says practically “non-existent.” 3,500 people on death row and 486 executions since 1976 is NOT approaching non-existent.

While comparing the numbers of children murdered by abortion to the numbers executed from death row should be a guide to how our resources should be expended, the gravity of one does not excuse ignoring the gravity of the other. 70 lives are still 70 human lives. You can take the time to write a letter to Congress and state legislatures.

 

[legeorge]

Vern, I think you may have missed this part of my post?

Maybe in extremely rare cases.

I think your example would fall under the category of extremely rare case.

 

[rastell]

ansel123:

I would ask you not to insinuate that I am pro-choice, because that is the furtherest thing from the truth. When did we get so suspicious of one another in our Church?
.

"Phrases like this bother me. They are often used by pro-abortion people to put pro-lifers on the spot and push pro-lifers to dilute their message, loose supporters, and divide up their funds."

These are my exact words! I did not insinuate you are pro-choice- YOU inferred it. As a matter of fact, since you are posting on these Catholic Forums, I ASSUMED YOU ARE PROLIFE! That is why I didn’t bother to spend time writing that I am not referring you as a pro-abortion person.

 

[ansel123]

I am glad that we are both under the same banner.

I did not mean to infer anything of that sort. My phrase was inspired by John Paul II (consistent ethic of life) and Joseph Cardinal Bernadin (seemless garment of life).

We shoud not let anti-life groups steal our pastoral phrases.

I apologize for any confusion.

 

[ansel123]

ansel123:

First, my phrase was inspired by the phrase “consistent ethic of life,” which can be attributed to our previous Holy Father.

I also think Cardinal Bernadin put it best when he said:

“Surely we can all agree that the taking of human life in abortion is not the same as failing to protect human dignity against hunger. But having made that distinction, let us not fail to make the point that both are moral issues.”

The death penalty is not only a moral issue, but its also a life issue. We agree that abortion is always wrong, but we should also agree that the death penalty is also wrong in the majority of cases where it has been imposed. You say “usually wrong” - the Catechism says practically “non-existent.” 3,500 people on death row and 486 executions since 1976 is NOT approaching non-existent.

While comparing the numbers of children murdered by abortion to the numbers executed from death row should be a guide to how our resources should be expended, the gravity of one does not excuse ignoring the gravity of the other. 70 lives are still 70 human lives. You can take the time to write a letter to Congress and state legislatures.

 

[vern_humphrey]

ansel123:

God has called me to take a different path in life. I respect the job that corrections officers do. They are aware of the risks they face and are highly trained to do their jobs. To suggest that just anyone could step in and take their place is disrespectful. .

You don’t recognize God’s calling. He is calling you to be a Corrections Officer.

ansel123:

Although the death penalty would clearly have prevented Clutts’ murder, it seems that changed prison policies could also have prevented his murder. If a prisoner is so dangerous, why does he have contact with other prisoners? There are penal tools to deal with violence in prison. .

At the time of Clutts’ murder, Tommy Silverstein was on 23-hours a day lockdown. When he was out of his cell, he was handcuffed and escorted by THREE corrections officers.

The article didn’t mention it, but ANOTHER corrections office was murdered in Marion the same day, and the evidence is this was a plot. At leat two other officers were targeted for death that day.

Now, earlier you said:

ansel123:

To suggest that just anyone could step in and take their place is disrespectful…

And now you say:

ansel123:

it seems that changed prison policies could also have prevented his murder…

On the one hand, you admit you aren’t qualified, and on the other hand, you say you know better than the people running the prison.

ansel123:

The death penalty is not necessary. We need to give the corrections system the resources it needs to carry out the job properly…

And the main resource they need is YOU. Youi’re so knowledgeable that you can say

ansel123:

it seems that changed prison policies could also have prevented his murder…

You have a moral obligation to give them the benefit of your insights.

ansel123:

I encourage you to read the Catechism, the encyclical Evangelium Vitae, the position of the US Bishops, and this article by Cardinal Schoenborn, who is the director of the Catechism and not considered liberal by any measure:

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Dossier/9-10-98/article.html

These aren’t my teachings in the sense that I created them, but they are teachings I follow because I am Catholic.

I’ve read it all – and I think the people who run the prisons know how dangerous many of their inmates are.

 

[vern_humphrey]

legeorge:

Vern, I think you may have missed this part of my post?

I think your example would fall under the category of extremely rare case.

If such cases are rare, then surely there should be enough people who are opposed to the death penalty in all cases to guard and care for these extremely dangerous convicts.

 

[Lisa_N]

rastell:

Maybe the definition of “cruel and unusual punishment” should be revisited.

I agree but our courts have defined this very liberally. I don’t trust them to redefine it
Lisa N

 

[ansel123]

vern humphrey:

You don’t recognize God’s calling. He is calling you to be a Corrections Officer.

I would ask you not to be uncharitable. I follow the vocation God has asked me to follow. Vocations are serious callings.
vern humphrey:

On the one hand, you admit you aren’t qualified, and on the other hand, you say you know better than the people running the prison.

I didn’t say I know better. If someone is killed in prison, obviously there is a problem. If prisoners have weapons and handcuff keys, something is wrong with the procedures at that prison or else they don’t have enough resources.

Also, being qualified to be a corrections officer and being qualified to make general observations about the information in an article are NOT the same thing. You and I are not theologians, but we are opining on the moral status of the death penalty.

Further, you are quick to point to the death penalty as a solution in the Silverstein case. Have you completed a thorough investigation of prison policies and do you know all the facts about everything that went on when Silverstein killed? Of course not. None of us do. So you shouldn’t be so quick to put this man to death before doing what the Church requires - making a determination that the ONLY way society can be protected is by carrying out a capital sentence.
vern humphrey:

I’ve read it all – and I think the people who run the prisons know how dangerous many of their inmates are.

Then we should all support some kind of system where the people who run the prisons participate in a procedure to make the determination the Church’s teachings require - that the death penalty is absolutely necessary in an individual case.

As I have said earlier, the Church’s teachings don’t call for a blanket ban, but they set forth stringent requirements. We have a moral obligation to see that they are followed.

 

[Trelow]

There is always a next level we can take it before executing someone. Today there is no need for the death penality in the US.

Put the offender in a 6x6 concrete box with a hole to releive himself in, and toss him a few Coast Guard emergency rations a day through a hole itn the top. Heh, even better you can stack the boxes, put the worst offenders in the bottom ones. :bounce:

 

[Matt25]

Isidore_AK:

My heart doesn’t bleed for those that are justly executed (and the vast majority of executions ARE just)

How many innocent people do you think it is OK for the state on your behalf to kill every year to ensure that the guilty are also killed?

Incidentally murder rates in Western Europe which does not have the death penalty are lower than those in the USA. If you want to spare innocent lifes then try studying the facts before assuming that an eye for an eye will somehow help improve the worlds eyesight.

 

[vern_humphrey]

ansel123:

I would ask you not to be uncharitable. I follow the vocation God has asked me to follow. Vocations are serious callings…

Indeed they are – Merle Clutts died for his vocation.

And now people who think they know better – without ever setting foot inside a prison – want to increase the danger Corrections Officers face.

And none of those people would dare to volunteer for the same dangerous duty.

ansel123:

I didn’t say I know better. If someone is killed in prison, obviously there is a problem. If prisoners have weapons and handcuff keys, something is wrong with the procedures at that prison or else they don’t have enough resources…

The problem is that a man who has murdered twice, and received two life sentences without parole has no reason not to murder again, if he can only receive another life sentence.

ansel123:

Also, being qualified to be a corrections officer and being qualified to make general observations about the information in an article are NOT the same thing. …

I agree that you have the right to callously dismiss the dangers Corrections Officers face. I don’t agree that you are right when you do it.

ansel123:

Further, you are quick to point to the death penalty as a solution in the Silverstein case. Have you completed a thorough investigation of prison policies and do you know all the facts about everything that went on when Silverstein killed?..

How do you think I have the facts of the Silverstein case at my fingertips?

Are you suggesting that you, who never heard of Tommy Silverstein until I mentioned him, know more about him and his case than I do?

Have you made an investigation into my expertise in prisons?

(I was part of a team that did work on this case under contract to the Federal Bureau of Prisons.)

ansel123:

Then we should all support some kind of system where the people who run the prisons participate in a procedure to make the determination the Church’s teachings require - that the death penalty is absolutely necessary in an individual case.

And do away with trials, judges and juries?

ansel123:

As I have said earlier, the Church’s teachings don’t call for a blanket ban, but they set forth stringent requirements. We have a moral obligation to see that they are followed.

An if you had ever set foot inside a Federal Maximum Security prison, you’d be amazed at how many truly dangerous people there are.

 

[Isidore_AK]

Matt25:

How many** innocent** people do you think it is OK for the state on your behalf to kill every year to ensure that the guilty are also killed?

Incidentally murder rates in Western Europe which does not have the death penalty are lower than those in the USA. If you want to spare innocent lifes then try studying the facts before assuming that an eye for an eye will somehow help improve the worlds eyesight.

No one is innocent.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Isidore_AK:

No one is innocent.

Actually a lot of people are innocent – they are the victims of crimes.

Locking up a murderer is an experiment – when he kills again, you know the experiment failed.

 

[animalluvr77]

vern humphrey:

Those who talk about keeping criminals “locked up for life” ought to study the case of Tommy Silverstein. The account below was written in 2001.

---

Thomas Silverstein is often described by the authorities as America’s most dangerous prisoner.

In the six years after he was jailed for armed robbery in 1977 he killed two fellow inmates - and stabbed to death prison guard Merle Clutts. He was cleared of a fourth murder.

At the time, the murder of a federal prison guard was not a capital offence and Silverstein was sentenced to life in jail - the maximum term available.

After the murder of Mr Clutts, in Marion penitentiary in Illinois, he was placed on “no human contact” status.

Silverstein, now 49, spends his days in a specially-designed cell deep in the bowels of Leavenworth federal penitentiary in Kansas.

The lights are allegedly kept on 24 hours a day for security reasons.

Guards refuse to talk to “Terrible Tom” out of respect for Mr Clutts.

At the time of Mr Clutts’ death, Silverstein was one of the leaders of the Aryan Brotherhood (AB), the most powerful white gang in the US prison system.

Silverstein has always claimed Mr Clutts had been persecuting him but the prison authorities said he should have raised his grievances through the proper channels.

At Marion he was held in his cell for 23 hours a day but he took his one opportunity to kill the guard.

As he returned, handcuffed, from the shower block Silverstein walked over to chat to an AB friend, Randy Gometz.

Gometz suddenly produced a stolen key and unlocked Silverstein’s cuffs.

Silverstein leaned through the bars and pulled a shank (improvised knife) from Gometz’s waistband before stabbing Mr Clutts 20 times.

After the murder he was moved to a special cell in Atlanta, Georgia, but was freed by a gang of Cubans during a riot in 1987. He was recaptured - traded in by the Cubans - and moved to Leavenworth.

For the past 14 years he has been kept in a special cell at Leavenworth, one of America’s toughest jails.

---

Silverstein committed THREE murders AFTER he was sent to prison!!

What do we do with people like Silverstein – when we give them life without parole and they kill again?

Let me offer the opponents of the Death Penalty a challenge – Silverstein needs someone to bring him his meals, see that he is bathed, gets his hair cut, and so on. And he spends his whole day exercising in his cell, and thinking about how he will kill the NEXT guard. How about volunteering to take care of Tommy – so other people don’t have to put their lives at risk?

Hey Vern, maybe you should volunteer to be the one who puts these people to death on a daily basis for about a year or two! And if there aren’t enough scheduled for each day you could always travel to each state that does need you to do it for them and then come back and let us know how you feel about it!!