The morally emasculated: Death for Death Penalty Opponents

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legeorge:
Eureka, I’ve got it. We isolate an island. Make sure it is absolutely impossible to escape from, and air drop in prisoners and supplies at regular intervals. With high tech technology, this should be a snap. What do you think? :whacky: Heck, we could make it international even. The prisoners would kill each other off faster than any penal system could. 😦
Did’t somebody already try that?

Now we have all these dang Kiwis running around. 😛
 
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Trelow:
I say we put him in the bottom box.
But who will go into the cage he’s in now, wrestle him outl, and PUT him in that box?

And who will take him out for a shower or hair cut when the Supreme Court says we have to?
 
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ByzCath:
This is your opinion and not the teaching of the Catholic Church as shown by the paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You can not argue against an actual cite of a Magisteral Document with your personal opinion of what others say. Please provide the cites that say a Catholic may in no case support capital punishment.

As the Catechism says, there are cases were capital punishment could be applied. While those are very rare they still could exist.
If you take the time to actually READ what I wrote, you will find that I have said over and over in this thread that neither I nor our Church is calling for a blanket ban on the death penalty. Please don’t misrepresent what I say and then use the misrepresentation against me. As PRACTICED in the U.S., the death penalty does not meet the criteria of the Catechism. While the death penalty should be theoretically available, it is not necessary, thus does’t meet the Church’s criteria and thus immoral in most if not all cases. The Church leaves the door open, but at the same time says it should be practically non-existant. 3,500 people on death row and over 486 executed since 1976 is NOT even approaching non-existent.

As for documents of authority, the Catechism and the encyclical Evangelium Vitae (which also condemns abortion, euthanasia, etc.) are authoratative teachings. While you may have different personal views on the death penalty, you are bound to follow the Church’s teachings in these documents. We don’t get to pick and chose which teachings we want to follow and which ones we don’t.

And the fact that there is a standard and not an absolute prohibition is no excuse. The teachings say that the death penalty should be practically non-existent, which it is clearly not in this country.

Here are some excerpts from Cardinal Sconborn’s article (catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Dossier/9-10-98/article.html) citing the relevent teachings. Cardinal Schonborn directed the development of the Catechism. EV refers to the encyclical of John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae:

**"[The Catechism] made a further step in formulating as a strict requirement, and as a moral obligation, binding public authority to make use of bloodless means in every situation where they are sufficient." **

AND
“The following number, however, introduces an important restriction the significance of which has not been sufficiently noticed. “**If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, **because these better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person” (CCC, 2267).”

AND

"The intentions of the Holy Father with respect to the death penalty are clearly shown in his 1995 encyclical Evangelium Vitae. In number 27 the **Pope lists “among the signs of hope” for “a culture of life” those who are opposed to the powers of the “culture of death,” “the growing public opposition to the death penalty, even when such a penalty is seen as a kind of ‘legitimate defense’ on the part of society. **Modern society in fact has the means of effectively suppressing crime by rendering criminals harmless without definitively denying them the chance to reform” (EV 27).

AND
It seems clear to me that if the Pope sees “a sign of hope” there, he himself shares that “opposition to the death penalty, even when such a penalty is a kind of “legitimate defense.” Two arguments are advanced to justify this opposition and are taken up again more explicitly in number 56 of the encyclical: “Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent” (EV 56).

I am not sure why you think my position is my position and not our Church’s.
 
vern humphrey:
It would be a lot less dangerous if we consistently executed the stone killers like Tommy Sliverstein, and did it within a year or two of them committing crimes.
First of all, your position is shocking. How many people have been freed from death row who were innocent of the crime only because they were kept alive over those years because of litigation, appeals, and stays? In Illinois, in 1998, 9 were exonerated. Over 75 nationally and probably more. Some people have been released from death row after 10-15 years there. If we put your system into practice, innocent people would be dead - murdered by the state.

You want to deny captial defendents their constitutional right to appeals by cutting their habeas petitions off and then put them to death in 1-2 years? I think any reasonable person would be unconfortable with the paltry amount of process you are advocating when the penalty is taking someone’s life. The extra hearings and appeals that take years are at least some kind of back-up to insure that the defendent actually committed the crime.

Even if you are pro-death penalty, you can at least support enough judicial process to insure that the defendent actually committed the crime. Anything less is endorsement of an criminally inaccurate system that executes innocent people.

Finally, you advocated putting Silverstein to death after his first or second murder. Where is the mercy in this? Where is his chance to find Christ? If we put everyone to death after their first murder, the death penalty definitely would not be rare or practically non-existent.

I am in no way saying that these people don’t deserve harsh punishment. You have experience with prisons and know that a life sentence without parole is a very severe punishment. But we can’t just give lip service to being pro-life, to the Church’s teachings on the death penalty, and to Christ’s mercy. The true test of mercy is not when we apply it in the easy cases, but when we apply it in the most difficult ones.
 
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bogeyjlg:
Better to let a guilty man go free than to have your hands stained with the blood of the innocent.
I will admit the possiblity of the innocent being condemned to die troubles me greatly. At the same time, I think that if you let someone guilty go free and they killed again then wouldn’t your hands still be stained with blood?
 
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ansel123:
If you take the time to actually READ what I wrote, you will find that I have said over and over in this thread that neither I nor our Church is calling for a blanket ban on the death penalty. Please don’t misrepresent what I say and then use the misrepresentation against me. As PRACTICED in the U.S., the death penalty does not meet the criteria of the Catechism. While the death penalty should be theoretically available, it is not necessary,
The “not necessary” argument would be a LOT more convincing if the people who oppose the death penalty would take on the dangerous chore of guarding all those people who scare the bejabbers out of the rest of us.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
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legeorge:
Eureka, I’ve got it. We isolate an island. Make sure it is absolutely impossible to escape from, and air drop in prisoners and supplies at regular intervals. With high tech technology, this should be a snap. What do you think? :whacky: Heck, we could make it international even. The prisoners would kill each other off faster than any penal system could. 😦
Isn’t this what Devil’s Island was? I know that I saw a Dustin Hoffman in a movie called Papillion along time ago. He was attempting to escape from Devil’s Island. Supposedly, it was based on a true story.
 
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deb1:
I will admit the possiblity of the innocent being condemned to die troubles me greatly. At the same time, I think that if you let someone guilty go free and they killed again then wouldn’t your hands still be stained with blood?
Right now we have a steady diet on the news about missing and murdered children – and often the perpetrator is someone the system SHOULD have dealt with years ago.

Now I notice that those who tell me that we can safely lock up serial killers are not themselves willing to do the locking and guarding.
 
I was listening to the radio the other day, and the Sherriff of Maricopa county in Arizona was on. Have you guys ever heard of him? The prisoners were stealing underwerar and selling it, so all underwear is dyed pink. He has the meals down to .23 cents a day. I guess the townsfolk donate cassoroles and stuff, plus other donations. The prisoners don’t get TV and all that trash. And the prisoners sleep in tents on cots. Anyway, from what I understand, the prisoners are hating life there!
 
vern humphrey:
Right now we have a steady diet on the news about missing and murdered children – and often the perpetrator is someone the system SHOULD have dealt with years ago.

Now I notice that those who tell me that we can safely lock up serial killers are not themselves willing to do the locking and guarding.
“A revised edition of the Catechism issued in 1997 contained even stronger language against the death penalty, reflecting the views expressed by Pope John Paul II in his 1995 encyclical, “The Gospel of Life.” At a September 9, 1997 Vatican press conference introducing the new edition, Cardinal Ratzinger was asked to what degree the new version strengthened the Church’s opposition to the death penalty. **He replied that the new text “does not categorically say that it is impossible, but it gives objective criteria which make it practically impossible for all of them to be met. We don’t exclude it in principle, but we insist on these criteria.””

(cacp.org/pages/585246/)

**PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE says our Holy Father!!! Why don’t you write Pope Benedict and ask him to be a prison guard?!?
 
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lassi:
I was listening to the radio the other day, and the Sherriff of Maricopa county in Arizona was on. Have you guys ever heard of him? The prisoners were stealing underwerar and selling it, so all underwear is dyed pink. He has the meals down to .23 cents a day. I guess the townsfolk donate cassoroles and stuff, plus other donations. The prisoners don’t get TV and all that trash. And the prisoners sleep in tents on cots. Anyway, from what I understand, the prisoners are hating life there!
Why that’s awful! If this keeps up, people may stop commiting crimes in order to stay out of jail!!

I have to agree with my friend, Sheriff Andy Lee. He has a similar jail system, and was accused of only serving cold meals. He told the newsman interviewing him, "We do NOT serve cold meals! We serve ROOM TEMPERATURE meals."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
vern humphrey:
Its nice to know that even though we can heatedly disagree, we can joke and are still brothers in the Church. 🙂

I urge you to read over some of the Church teachings I have posted. I think our presumption as Catholics should be for life in all cases. Its the hard cases that challenge this, the cases that trigger strong emotions. I hope we can both agree that it should be our goal to ultimately make the death penalty unnecessary by all means at our disposal, whether its providing more resources to corrections officers, trying to deal with the root causes of crime, developing new penal policies and procedures, or engaging in prayer.
 
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ansel123:
Its nice to know that even though we can heatedly disagree, we can joke and are still brothers in the Church. 🙂

I urge you to read over some of the Church teachings I have posted. I think our presumption as Catholics should be for life in all cases. Its the hard cases that challenge this, the cases that trigger strong emotions. I hope we can both agree that it should be our goal to ultimately make the death penalty unnecessary by all means at our disposal, whether its providing more resources to corrections officers, trying to deal with the root causes of crime, developing new penal policies and procedures, or engaging in prayer.
I’ve read it all – the differnce between us is in our appreciation of reality. There are genuine monsters in prisons – people who are so dangerous to the rest of us that we cannot guarentee the safety of the innocent as long as they live. And frankly, I don’t see how we can deal with these people short of the death penalty.
 
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bogeyjlg:
Better to let a guilty man go free than to have your hands stained with the blood of the innocent.
Nice easy snappy saying but won’t you have the blood of the innocent on your hands if the guilty man you let go free kills?
 
vern humphrey:
I’ve read it all – the differnce between us is in our appreciation of reality. There are genuine monsters in prisons – people who are so dangerous to the rest of us that we cannot guarentee the safety of the innocent as long as they live. And frankly, I don’t see how we can deal with these people short of the death penalty.
I appreciate and understand the dangers of these people. I also appreciate and understand that (1) our justice system is not perfect, (2) innocent people have been released from death row, (3) innocent people have almost certainly been executed, (4) that black men are more likley to be executed than white men for the same crime and (5) the defendent is more likely to be sentenced to death when the victim is white than when the victim is black.

Either way, with the death penalty or not, innocent lives are at risk. Putting people to death does not insure that innocent people or offenders that are sentenced to death only because of racial bias will be protected. Sentencing people to life without parole does not eliminate the risk to corrections officers (although violence in prison is a problem that needs to be dealt with regardless of capital offenders).

I side with the Church and put my faith in the teaching that the death penalty should be practically non-existent. Over time and with enough resources, we should be able to reduce or completely eliminate the risk that remains with life in prison when exceptional and uniquely dangerous offenders get that sentence rather than death.
 
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ByzCath:
Nice easy snappy saying but won’t you have the blood of the innocent on your hands if the guilty man you let go free kills?
I took several courses in Criminology from the Chief Sociologist of the Louisiana State Prison system. We spent one semester talking about the “root causes” of crime.

At the end of the semester, I asked him, “Mr. LeBlanc, what do YOU think causes crime?”

He looked at me and said, “Captain, some people are just BORN bad.”

He was a man with a LOT of experience inside prisons – and he harbored no illusions about dealing with “root causes” or “rehabilitation.”
 
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