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SirThomasMore
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And? My point is, it is a doctrine not specifically taught
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why_me
Guest
I was taught it when I was 18 and that was many moons ago. I always knew who are our heavenly parents and yes, heavenly mother was mentioned from time to time informally by members. It is taught in the lesson on the preexistence that we are born of heavenly parents. And when I was 18, it was said that heavenly mother is so honored that we don’t mention her out of respect because she is our heavenly mother. Now maybe that is mormon folklore but that is how it was taught.
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SirThomasMore
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RebeccaJ
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whyme anyone can go back and read what I said, and not your interpretation of it.
Investigators are not uniformly taught anything, so I don’t know how you can make a claim they are. Some are taught about a heavenly mother, others aren’t. Most of LDS manuals teach that in the mormon idea of a pre-existence, that all are spirit babies of the mormon heavenly father. Very seldom does anyone teach a ‘heavenly mother’. When they do, it is something more of a parenthetical idea (heavenly mother).
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RebeccaJ
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What’s behind the ambiguous “heavenly parents”? How many ‘heavenly mothers’ are there, and which one is the “mother” of the spirit baby Jesus? mormons believe their god the father is a polygamist god, with many goddess wives.
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why_me
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You mentioned the Gospel Prinicples manual. I proved that heavenly mother was mentioned. I also proved that mormons know who their heavenly parents are: a heavenly father and a heavenly mother. Even Paul conceded that point.
And there is no way that tom could not have known it too since the use of heavenly parents is often used and it has always implied a heavenly father and a heavenly mother. It is no secret and no deception. And that was my point. And in fact, if I were present in the lesson when chapter two of the Gospel Principles was being discussed and I mention Heavenly Mother, no one would have batted an eyelid. All know that in the lds doctrine we have a heavenly mother.
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why_me
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What? That you were taught that you had a Heavenly Mother? No problem.
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SirThomasMore
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Now now…there is no reason to resort to dishonesty. You know good and well that is not what I meant. I will forgive you for being dishoinest, but it does not speak well for the Mormons when their warrior has to be dishonest to make a point.What? That you were taught that you had a Heavenly Mother? No problem.
You proved my point that it was not commonly taught. Your mown words showed it.
Now, I hope, in the future, you will not need to resort to that. There is no reason we can’t get along without that kind of conduct. We should take the high road. Don;t you think?
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zaffiroborant
Guest
But people outside of LDS do not know this and it is NOT part of the teachings that missionaries give to prospects since the whole goddess business isn’t mentioned at all in the Preach my Gospel manual. Learning the teachings in the Gospel Principles manual is not required to be baptized into the LDS church. The Preach my Gospel manual actually instructs missionaries to get a commitment to baptism at the second meeting, long before any explanation of LDS goddesses or even any instruction in the “covenant” one makes in baptism. Nothing about various levels of heaven, like being given a new spouse/parent if yours didn’t make to the CK, the WOW, tithing and, temple recommends and, so fourth. Nope just the first lesson which can be summed up Christianity BAADD, apostate/ abomination, second lesson LDS GOOOOD followed up with "Will you follow the example of the Savior and be baptized on (date)?
No wonder people feel deceived by the missionaries.
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Roman_Catholic_1
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PaulDupre
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I can only report what I experienced as an investigator. Once the missionaries decided that I was “golden”, they answered all my questions very candidly. When I asked how Mary became pregnant with Jesus, Jeff (the senior companion who later married my sister and cheated on her until she divorced him) told me that Heavenly Father had intercourse with Mary. Ron (the junior companion) strenuously objected to this. After arguing about it in our living room for a few minutes, they promised to submit the question to their mission president and report the outcome at our next meeting. A few days later, Ron reported that he had been ignorant of the truth and had learned said truth from the mission president: heavenly father had indeed had carnal knowledge of his daughter Mary and therefore Jesus was the literal son of god the father after the manner of the flesh.
They also explained about heavenly mother and many other things. So I was unusually well-informed about Mormon doctrine before I joined. I knew (or cared) very little about biblical Christian teachings before I met the Mormon elders. But my life was a mess and I was ready for someone to straighten me out. I thought Mormonism would do that for me, so I bought it hook, line and sinker. And they did, in fact, straighten me out. For that I will always be grateful to them. But eventually I grew up and needed more than a keeper - I needed the truth, and Mormonism did not have the truth.
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zerinus
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I didn’t! Care to explain?
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eshuster
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WOW. There are a lot of thoughts here on the Mormon view of Jesus Christ. I see some threads of understanding, but I also see a lot of misunderstanding. At the core one must first understand that Mormons are scriptural Christians and do not believe in the Jesus of the Nicene Creed. We believe Jesus was who he said he was in the New Testament. This is the Mormon belief of Jesus from a Biblical standpoint:
Firstborn of All
Jesus Christ is not the firstborn in the flesh (that would be Adam), but he is the “firstborn of every creature,” meaning the firstborn spirit offspring of God the Father (Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:5-6). Jesus is also the only begotten son of God the Father by the Holy Ghost through Mary. All other men and women on earth, while also spirit offspring of God the Father, are begotten by mortal parents. Jesus is the elder brother among brethren, the spirit offspring of God the Father (Romans 8:29).
Mortal Son of the Father
The conception of Jesus was accomplished by the Holy Ghost overshadowing Mary (Luke 1:35 and Matthew 1:20, 23). Jesus thus became the only begotten son of God the Father (John 1:14 and John 3:16). Begotten in this context means “born in the flesh.”
The Atoner
Jesus atoned for the sins of all humankind. The Atonement of Christ eradicates the spiritual effects of sin and with repentance enables full reconciliation with God the Father (Romans 5:10-11). God the Son was perfect in every way, the unspotted sacrificial lamb, and thus the only one capable of performing the infinite Atonement (1 Peter 1:19). The Atonement began in the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus took upon him the sins of the world and suffered pain “even unto death.” His sweat became as drops of blood, and he begged God the Father, if it was the Father’s will, to allow him to forego the agony of the Atonement (Matthew 26:38-39 and Mark 14:34-36). But Jesus moved forward despite his fears, and was ministered to by an angel (Luke 22:42-44). Jesus completed the Atonement by dying on the cross (John 19:17-18, Matthew 27:33, 35, 46, 50, Mark 15:22, 25, 34, 37, and Luke 23:33, 46). Where thousands throughout history have been crucified, only one of them was both God and man. Only one went to his death voluntarily to atone for the sins of the World.
The Resurrected
Three days after his death, Jesus was resurrected through an integrated physical and spiritual process that is beyond human comprehension (Mark 16:6). The spirit of Jesus was reunited with his body in perfection and glory. Jesus showed his disciples his glorified physical body, but they feared he was a ghost (a spirit). He told them that a spirit did not have flesh and bones as he did, and he invited them to touch him to confirm this (Mark 16:9, 12, 14 and Luke 24:36-40). To further prove the resurrection of his physical body, Jesus ate a meal with his apostles (Luke 24:41-43) and declared that he would drink the fruit of the vine in his Father’s kingdom (Mark 14:25). After his ascension to God the Father (Acts 1:9-11), Jesus returned and revealed his resurrected physical body to a chosen few (Acts 7:55-56).
The Millennial King
Jesus will come again to rule and reign on the earth in what is referred to as the “second coming” (Isaiah 11:11 and Hebrews 9:28). He will return the same way he departed: in all glory and splendor (Revelation 1:7).
No man knows when the second coming will take place (1 Thessalonians 5:2), not even Jesus. Only the Father knows (Mark 13:32). The second coming of Jesus is described as both great and terrible (2 Peter 3:10-13)—great in that the faithful will reign with Christ during the millennium, and terrible for those who are unprepared at his coming.
Man of Many Names
Jesus is called Savior, Redeemer, and the son of God in the Bible. He also shares names that are usually reserved for the Father. For example, Jesus is called Everlasting Father, Immanuel, and Mighty God in the Bible. The choice of names or labels for Jesus is usually based on delegation: When Jesus acts for the Father, he may be called father, just as the copilot of an aircraft is called the “pilot” whenever he is at the controls, whether or not he is the senior officer. Names, then, can also signify function or esteem.
Here are some of the names for Jesus:
Isaiah 7:14—Immanuel, Isaiah 9:6—Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, Exodus 6:3—Jehovah, Mark 1:1—Son of God, Matthew 8:20—Son of Man, Matthew 15:22—Son of David, John 1:1—The Word, John 1:29—The Lamb of God, Matthew 16:16—Christ, Luke 2:11—Savior (Saviour), John 1:38—Rabbi, Mark 5:35—Master, Acts 3:15—Prince of Life, Revelation 1:8—Alpha and Omega, Almighty, Revelation 5:5—Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Revelation 19:16—King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Revelation 22:16—The Bright and Morning Star, Revelation 19:13—The Word of God, Acts 3:14—The Holy One, Ephesians 5:23—Head of the Church, Matthew 22:43-44—Lord, John 4:25-26—Messiah (Messias), Titus 2:14—Redeemer, John 8:12—Light of the World, 1 Timothy 2:5—Mediator, John 6:35—Bread of Life, John 14:6—The Way, the Truth, and the Life, Romans 11:26—Deliverer, Ephesians 2:20—Chief Corner Stone, and John 10:11—Good Shepherd.
Is this not the same Jesus Christ that you believe in?
Please folks - research the subject using credible sources AND talk to a few Mormons who understand and live their religion and you will find out the truth.
God Bless
Firstborn of All
Jesus Christ is not the firstborn in the flesh (that would be Adam), but he is the “firstborn of every creature,” meaning the firstborn spirit offspring of God the Father (Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:5-6). Jesus is also the only begotten son of God the Father by the Holy Ghost through Mary. All other men and women on earth, while also spirit offspring of God the Father, are begotten by mortal parents. Jesus is the elder brother among brethren, the spirit offspring of God the Father (Romans 8:29).
Mortal Son of the Father
The conception of Jesus was accomplished by the Holy Ghost overshadowing Mary (Luke 1:35 and Matthew 1:20, 23). Jesus thus became the only begotten son of God the Father (John 1:14 and John 3:16). Begotten in this context means “born in the flesh.”
The Atoner
Jesus atoned for the sins of all humankind. The Atonement of Christ eradicates the spiritual effects of sin and with repentance enables full reconciliation with God the Father (Romans 5:10-11). God the Son was perfect in every way, the unspotted sacrificial lamb, and thus the only one capable of performing the infinite Atonement (1 Peter 1:19). The Atonement began in the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus took upon him the sins of the world and suffered pain “even unto death.” His sweat became as drops of blood, and he begged God the Father, if it was the Father’s will, to allow him to forego the agony of the Atonement (Matthew 26:38-39 and Mark 14:34-36). But Jesus moved forward despite his fears, and was ministered to by an angel (Luke 22:42-44). Jesus completed the Atonement by dying on the cross (John 19:17-18, Matthew 27:33, 35, 46, 50, Mark 15:22, 25, 34, 37, and Luke 23:33, 46). Where thousands throughout history have been crucified, only one of them was both God and man. Only one went to his death voluntarily to atone for the sins of the World.
The Resurrected
Three days after his death, Jesus was resurrected through an integrated physical and spiritual process that is beyond human comprehension (Mark 16:6). The spirit of Jesus was reunited with his body in perfection and glory. Jesus showed his disciples his glorified physical body, but they feared he was a ghost (a spirit). He told them that a spirit did not have flesh and bones as he did, and he invited them to touch him to confirm this (Mark 16:9, 12, 14 and Luke 24:36-40). To further prove the resurrection of his physical body, Jesus ate a meal with his apostles (Luke 24:41-43) and declared that he would drink the fruit of the vine in his Father’s kingdom (Mark 14:25). After his ascension to God the Father (Acts 1:9-11), Jesus returned and revealed his resurrected physical body to a chosen few (Acts 7:55-56).
The Millennial King
Jesus will come again to rule and reign on the earth in what is referred to as the “second coming” (Isaiah 11:11 and Hebrews 9:28). He will return the same way he departed: in all glory and splendor (Revelation 1:7).
No man knows when the second coming will take place (1 Thessalonians 5:2), not even Jesus. Only the Father knows (Mark 13:32). The second coming of Jesus is described as both great and terrible (2 Peter 3:10-13)—great in that the faithful will reign with Christ during the millennium, and terrible for those who are unprepared at his coming.
Man of Many Names
Jesus is called Savior, Redeemer, and the son of God in the Bible. He also shares names that are usually reserved for the Father. For example, Jesus is called Everlasting Father, Immanuel, and Mighty God in the Bible. The choice of names or labels for Jesus is usually based on delegation: When Jesus acts for the Father, he may be called father, just as the copilot of an aircraft is called the “pilot” whenever he is at the controls, whether or not he is the senior officer. Names, then, can also signify function or esteem.
Here are some of the names for Jesus:
Isaiah 7:14—Immanuel, Isaiah 9:6—Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, Exodus 6:3—Jehovah, Mark 1:1—Son of God, Matthew 8:20—Son of Man, Matthew 15:22—Son of David, John 1:1—The Word, John 1:29—The Lamb of God, Matthew 16:16—Christ, Luke 2:11—Savior (Saviour), John 1:38—Rabbi, Mark 5:35—Master, Acts 3:15—Prince of Life, Revelation 1:8—Alpha and Omega, Almighty, Revelation 5:5—Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Revelation 19:16—King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Revelation 22:16—The Bright and Morning Star, Revelation 19:13—The Word of God, Acts 3:14—The Holy One, Ephesians 5:23—Head of the Church, Matthew 22:43-44—Lord, John 4:25-26—Messiah (Messias), Titus 2:14—Redeemer, John 8:12—Light of the World, 1 Timothy 2:5—Mediator, John 6:35—Bread of Life, John 14:6—The Way, the Truth, and the Life, Romans 11:26—Deliverer, Ephesians 2:20—Chief Corner Stone, and John 10:11—Good Shepherd.
Is this not the same Jesus Christ that you believe in?
Please folks - research the subject using credible sources AND talk to a few Mormons who understand and live their religion and you will find out the truth.
God Bless
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Roman_Catholic_1
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Read it, carefully:
I have never heard of a Mormon admit that their religion is nothing but 100% Biblical. For you to admit that the Mormon view of Christ is anything but Biblical (its “pretty close”) is a rather large admittance. Or maybe I am incorrect, is Mormonism open about their unbiblical doctrines? What else in Mormonism is “pretty close” to being Biblical but not quite?
God bless
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SirThomasMore
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Its just goes to show what we have said all along. Mormons worship a different Jesus. They do not worship the true God or the true Christ
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RebeccaJ
Guest
The OP defined the topic as the mormon idea of Jesus’ premortal existence. What mormons teach and believe about Jesus is not one and the same. You can list all the things you like out of scripture, but with the incorrect understanding that LDS have of Jesus Himself, His nature and person, it doesn’t show that LDS believe the same as Christianity.
Because in all those scriptures you listed, we understand them as speaking about GOD, Jesus Christ, a distinct Person of the Holy Trinity. LDS are talking about someone else entirely. A person who’s nature is no different than yours, mine, or anyone. This view begins with how lds understand Jesus in a premortal existence.
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CatholicGuyNY
Guest
The above issue is the one that I brought up. The difference between the Jesus Christ that Catholics believe in and the LDS understanding is that Mormons believe that Jesus was literally the firstborn spirit child of the Father and Heavenly Mother, and is a spirit child of them as we all are (in the pre-mortal existence). Traditional Christianity has no such belief, and we do not believe that Jesus was created/organized by the Father. Please see this excellent post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6735884&postcount=25
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Returning_Home
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You’re playing games because if you knew your own history, you’d see that it took Mormonism some 160 years to get to that point. Not only that, you forgot to mention that the jesus (small j) you believe in is the product of celestial incest (already noted in this thread) who happens to be mentioned in the Bible that’s full of errors, mistranslations, and tamperings.
Since you can’t even legally use the JST, you have no idea what the Bible actually means.
You speak of “credible sources,” but when I support the facts about Mormonism from pro- and LDS-produced works, I’m called an “anti-Mormon.”
What you actually mean is that unless someone simply takes your church’s word for it, ignoring the lies, inconsistancies, plagiarizations, and false prophecies, we must not understand.
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zerinus
Guest
What I meant by “pretty close” was not that the Mormon doctrine of Jesus does not fully conform to the biblical teaching. I meant the opposite, that it teaches them more clearly and unequivocally than the Bible does. Take the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ for example: whereas the biblical teachings on that contain some ambiguity, the Book of Mormon teaching on it contains no ambiguity, as shown in the quotes given earlier, with some additional ones added here:
Book of Mormon, Title Page:
. . . And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, ***the ETERNAL GOD, ***manifesting himself unto all nations . . .
2 Nephi 26:
12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.
Mosiah 3:
5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
3 Nephi 11:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
Ether 3:
17 . . . therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.
18 And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.
D&C 19:
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
(And there are more.) Nowhere in the Bible does it teach the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ as clearly and unambiguously as it does in the Book of Mormon and in the other modern scriptures of the LDS Church. If there are any differences, that is the difference, not that the Mormon teaching does not 100% conform with the biblical teaching.
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Returning_Home
Guest
You apparently didn’t notice while you were posting, but you undermined your entire position; you’re trying to prove that you believe in the Jesus of the Bible but unintentionally proved the glaring inconsistancy about Jesus’ nature. In all but one quote, you’ll find the the word *God *or Lord, which, used in the singular, means one and only, thus undercutting the notion of multiple gods in the Godhead.
This, when looked at chronologically, shows that when Smith wrote the BOM, he was of an essentially Catholic/Protestant frame of mind because God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one God, eternal and forever.
It’s not until we get to the LOF of 1835 that we see Smith’s opinion of God starting to change, culminating in the small, but very important change in the second edition of the BOM (1837):
“These records shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior.” (BOM, 1830, p.32)
“These records shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the *Son of *the Eternal Father and the Savior.” (BOM, 1 Nephi 14:30)
You shot yourself in the foot here because the BOM, supposed to be the cornerstone of the “restoration” of Jesus gospel, doesn’t even bother to address the specific unique apects of Mormonism: eternal marriage, baptism and marriage ceremonies for the dead, the premortal existance, three degrees of glory in Heaven, etrnal progression, multiple gods, or the need for the Aaronic or Melchizadek priesthoods in the Christian era.
So what exactly was your god restoring?
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