The Novus Ordo Mass-What do you like about it?

[Jakub]

Nota,

The Novus Ordo is the Mass Of the Latin Rite ? Where’s the Latin ?

Not in my neck of the woods.

And you wonder why there is a revision of a revision, they may get it correct in another 30 years, in time for my great grandchildren.

james

 

[bear06]

It’s ok to argue about discipline matters; you just can’t argue if the Church has authority to make those decisions ('cause it does). You have to be obedient. You’re allowed to argue whether it was the best decision (this is only true with discipline, not dogma and doctrine, you have to agree there). The Church is not infallible when it comes to discipline, only faith and morals. The form of the liturgy is discipline.

I sort of agree with you but I don’t think you’ve got it completely right. According to Pastor Aeternus ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm#6 you are not only to obey and to acknowledge that the Pope has the authority in regards to disciplines, you are to submit to it. Submission is a different from simply obeying. I always use the husband and wife as an example. I am not just called to obey my husband. I am called to submission. So while I agree that discipline doesn’t fall under infallible I don’t think arguing whether it is the best decision falls under submission. For example, I think my husband is making a wrong decision in x,y or z (not something sinful), I obey him in this decision but am I showing submission if I am harping on the fact that I don’t think it was a perfect decision? See below quote from PA.

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

Now if you’d like to say that we are allowed to argue in regards to which form is more pleasing to us, that would be fine and dandy.

 

[otm]

Things I like about the normative Mass, as opposed to the Indult:
More and greater emphasis on Scripture, with the addition of Old Testamet readings, and a greter exposure to the New Testamant with the extension of readings.

Emphasis on the Homily to “break open” the Scriptures, as opposed to getting a sermon on whatever topic might be chosen.

Additional Eucharistic Prayers; saying the same one over and over tends toward familiarity, which tends toward not paying attention.

Vernacular; I can pray along with the priest, and pay attention to what he is actually saying, rather than trying to read a translation and basically ignore him except for background sounds.

Communion in the Hand; it is a lot more sanitary and emphasizes the meal aspect of the Eucharist (see John:6). Communion under both Species (again, meal aspect emphasized).

Vernacular with better music than the sing-songy early music (Mother Dear, Oh Pay For Me comes to mind) or the concert aspect of listening to a choir go through their paces on some work by Palestrina (it is gorgeous music, but if I want a concert, I’ll pay for a ticket and go listen - I came to worship, not be entertained).

 

[Asimis]

I am still making the RCIA program, but since I was attending a NO Mass, I began to learn more about the Tridentine Mass and started to look at the differences and as such I felt the need to find a Tridentine Mass and attend that one instead of the NO, I have not been to one but I found a Church which does it and I will go this Sunday.

 

[Genesis315]

bear06:

I sort of agree with you but I don’t think you’ve got it completely right. According to Pastor Aeternus ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm#6 you are not only to obey and to acknowledge that the Pope has the authority in regards to disciplines, you are to submit to it. Submission is a different from simply obeying. I always use the husband and wife as an example. I am not just called to obey my husband. I am called to submission. So while I agree that discipline doesn’t fall under infallible I don’t think arguing whether it is the best decision falls under submission. For example, I think my husband is making a wrong decision in x,y or z (not something sinful), I obey him in this decision but am I showing submission if I am harping on the fact that I don’t think it was a perfect decision? See below quote from PA.

Now if you’d like to say that we are allowed to argue in regards to which form is more pleasing to us, that would be fine and dandy.

oooo, thanks for pointing that out! I always just assumed obedience and submission were the same. That was a good way of differentiating the two.

 

[BulldogCath]

Eddie

You do offer the best comments,

Things I never noticed but true

EddieArent:

I dislike the lack of it being universal in that you don’t know if the Mass is going to be completely in the vernacular, use Latin, etc. As well the “Liturgic inventions” I dislike very much. I like how EWTN priests celebrate. Atleast they have consistancy and respect. The chausable in the Tridentine Mass I like. You know he’s a Catholic priest. There are some priests here in Orlando that have plain colors as vestaments. No crosses or anything.

Regarding the rosary comment, I’d rather have people praying the rosary in Mass than people having their hands in their pockets dressed like a bum and mumbling while holding hands with their neighbor.

 

[BulldogCath]

Beautiful

I never knew that

marcus29:

This is what the reformers thought. Cranmer ordered his entire service to be said “plainly and distinctly”* (Rubric in the 1549 Communion Service)*

The Council of Trent anathematized anyone who condemned the silent Canon.

**"If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church prescribing that a part of the Canon and the words of consecration be recited in a low tone of voice, should be condemned; … **let him be anathema."

The German liturgist Father Jungmann says: “… the priest now separates from the people and makes his way before the all-holy God in order to offer up sacrifice to Him.” In many Eastern liturgies, not only is the Eucharistic Prayer said inaudibly— so is the Preface.

The liturgist Rev. Nicholas Gihr says the silent Canon, “betokens the Consecration and Sacrificial Act to be an exclusively priestly function.”

“In every Host there are miracles, as numerous as stars in the firmament,— yet not the slightest trace of the wonders appears externally. With all this the ecclesiastical rite harmonizes perfectly. The holy silence is quite suited to indicate and to recall the concealment and depth, the incomprehensibleness and ineffableness of the wonderful mysteries that are enacted on the altar.”

“Silent prayer is related to religious silence, and, therefore, expresses the humility, reverence, admiration, and awe wherewith the Church administers and adores the Mystery of the 'Altar. “The Lord is in His holy temple; let all the earth keep silence before Him” (Hab. 2:20). The sight of the priest at the altar, communing amid profound stillness with God alone, is, therefore, also an excellent means afforded to arouse and promote in those who are present the proper dispositions, with which they should admire, adore, and offer along with the priest So grand and sublime a Sacrifice. Quam terribilis est haec hora!—thus does the deacon cry out to the people in the Syrian liturgy—“How terrible is this hour!” While the tremendous Sacrifice is being accomplished on the altar, all present should be immersed in silent contemplation and in devout meditation of the divine Mysteries” Nicholas Gihr

 

[Agomemnon]

Having gone to both the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass-but I truly love and do not hide the fact that I truly love and respect the TLM and all that it stands for-and have difficulties with the Novus Ordo Mass and the subsequent changes-I am curious and throw down the challenge to the supporters of the NO mass-what exactly is it about the mass that you like so much?

I’m still waiting for a Vatican II Mass -

recall Vatican II said we are to have latin, gregorian chant, polyphany etc.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Excellent point about silence in this thread. We seem to have lost all concept of worshipful silence in the modern Mass. Must there be a constant nattering and piano tinkling from start to finish? I’ve even heard priests say quite distinctly the parts of the new Mass that are supposed to be “inaudible,” i.e. “Lord, wash away my iniquity…”

I also dislike priests who insist on ad libbing their own prayers. In the Latin Mass, even if the priest does ad lib, who’s gonna understand it?

I also love the use of Latin in the TLM - much like the way they celebrated Mass in the early church. Nope, no ICEL translations back in the early church.

 

[BecomeLowly]

Hello Dr. Bombay,

I too appreciate the beauty of the Latin Mass. But if I am not mistaken the early Church said Mass in the vernacular-- so Christians in Rome would have used Latin, Christians in Greece, Greek. Christians in Israel, Aramaic, and so on. The reason the vernacular was allowed by the Council was, I believe, to reinstitute the practice of the early Church.

Yours,
Jessica

 

[EddieArent]

I’m listening to a Mass from Poland now. No Latin, but I’ll take the Polish translations over the English anyday. Then again, I’m a functioning illiterate in Polish, so caveat emptor.

A few days ago a priest (or a bishop) told the faithful there to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, kneeling. There is a fight in Poland over the issue and hopefully the practice of kneeling will stand (pun intended).

 

[Isidore_AK]

I’m all for a correct NO. Ours aren’t quite as good as the ones on EWTN, but our Priest is practicing his latin…

He hopes to have at least one latin mass each month, if he can get the parish to partcipate…There’s a small, but emphatic core of us that want it to happen…now if we could just get the rest of the parish together on this…

No clowns or dancers here…but we are stuck with a parish building that was built in the late 70’s…at least we got rid of the green carpet :dancing:

 

[romano]

Nothing. It is an attempt to re-invent the wheel. Nothing that moderns create could ever begin to equal, let alone surpass, the glories that were bequeathed to us from the past. Moderns are in every way inferior to their forebears, and they’re getting worse.

 

[pnewton]

BecomeLowly:

I like the fact the Jesus is truly present, body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Most Holy Eucharist!

Yours,
Jessica

This was the first thing that popped in my head, too! I am not surprised that it became a popular answer.

Also, I like the submission to the church that comes with attending the parish down the street. I know of too many who spend time church shopping for what feels better for them. When I became Catholic, my perspective on that behavior changed. If I can accept the church’s teaching authority on important theological issues, I surely can do so on less important matters.

From a more practical point of view, I like the full participation that I can engage in. I can sing all the songs and speak all the responses. I understand all the prayers. My intellect is engaged along with my spirit.

When I am confronted by things I do not like, I focus on the reality behind the Sacrament. This usually doesn’t happen unless I am visiting elsewhere, though.

 

[Nota_Bene]

Jakub:

Nota,

The Novus Ordo is the Mass Of the Latin Rite ? Where’s the Latin ?

Not in my neck of the woods.

And you wonder why there is a revision of a revision, they may get it correct in another 30 years, in time for my great grandchildren.

james

You’re confused…

The Novus Ordo Mass is the normative Mass of the Latin Rite – like it or not. The Tridentine Mass is by indult only.

 

[Nota_Bene]

Genesis315:

Has anyone ever been to a Byzantine Rite Mass? I’m curious as to how it compares to the NO and TLM.

There is no such thing. The Mass is limited to the Latin Rite.

The Divine Liturgy is quite beautiful, however.

 

[Nota_Bene]

I clipped the following from a closed thread. This is what I like about the Novus Ordo Mass:

"Following is a wonderful letter from taken from the July-August 2004 issue of Adoremus:

The Old Mass

"Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

It’s so refreshing to see a cleric with such a clear view of things… Ref. adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html"

 

[BulldogCath]

God bless you

At first it may be a bit overwhelming-but like some of the masses from the East-the High Mass is full of reverence and beauty and Tradition.

Asimis:

I am still making the RCIA program, but since I was attending a NO Mass, I began to learn more about the Tridentine Mass and started to look at the differences and as such I felt the need to find a Tridentine Mass and attend that one instead of the NO, I have not been to one but I found a Church which does it and I will go this Sunday.

 

[EddieArent]

Nota Bene:

You’re confused…

The Novus Ordo Mass is the normative Mass of the Latin Rite – like it or not. The Tridentine Mass is by indult only.

Ecclesia Dei Protocol 500/90, check it out.

 

[Teresita]

otm:

Things I like about the normative Mass, as opposed to the Indult:
More and greater emphasis on Scripture, with the addition of Old Testamet readings, and a greter exposure to the New Testamant with the extension of readings.

Emphasis on the Homily to “break open” the Scriptures, as opposed to getting a sermon on whatever topic might be chosen.

Additional Eucharistic Prayers; saying the same one over and over tends toward familiarity, which tends toward not paying attention.

Vernacular; I can pray along with the priest, and pay attention to what he is actually saying, rather than trying to read a translation and basically ignore him except for background sounds.

Communion in the Hand; it is a lot more sanitary and emphasizes the meal aspect of the Eucharist (see John:6). Communion under both Species (again, meal aspect emphasized).

Vernacular with better music than the sing-songy early music (Mother Dear, Oh Pay For Me comes to mind) or the concert aspect of listening to a choir go through their paces on some work by Palestrina (it is gorgeous music, but if I want a concert, I’ll pay for a ticket and go listen - I came to worship, not be entertained).

A very interesting set of points. I would have agreed with every one of them eight years ago, and would have argued with anyone who disagreed. I too believed that beautiful music sung by a choir, though delightful in itself, was more fitting to a concert than to a church; indeed, that the church building itself was unimportant, being merely a convenient place to assemble. I believed that the language used shouldn’t be special or different (and used gently to mock those who thought we should address God in any fashion different from the way we’d talk to each other); that repeating prayers over and over again was only for those who had no real, living faith, because those who had faith would want just to chat with God in their own words; that the only real sermon was Scriptural exposition; and as for Communion in the hand, I’d never experienced it any other way.

In fact, I’d have agreed 300% with NotaBene - not just 100%, because there were all sorts of other problems I’d have had with traditional Catholicism.

Mind you, I was an evangelical Protestant at the time.

Sue