The Novus Ordo Mass-What do you like about it?

[TNT]

TLM Readings Continued
Here is a partial commentary by the TLM on the Gospel of today (Transfiguration):

**
Ttoday’s Gospel from Aquinas’ Catena Aurea.**

“And there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with them.”

Chrys.: There are inane reasons why these should appear. The first is this; because the multitudes said He was Elias, or Jeremias, or one of the Prophets, He here [p. 602] brings with Him the chief of the Prophets, that hence at least may be seen the difference between the servants and their Lord.

Another reason is this; because the Jews were ever charging Jesus with being a transgressor of the Law and blasphemer, and usurping to Himself the glory of the Father, that He might prove Himself guiltless of both charges, He brings forward those who were eminent in both particulars; Moses, who gave the Law, and Elias, who was jealous for the glory of God.

Another reason is, that they might learn that He has the power of life and death; by producing Moses, who was dead, and Elias, who had not yet experienced death. A further reason also the Evangelist discovers, that He might shew the glory of His cross, and thus soothe Peter, and the other disciples, who were fearing His death; for they talked, as another Evangelist declares, “of His decease which He should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Wherefore He brings forward those who had exposed themselves to death for God’s pleasure, and for the people that believed; for both had willingly stood before tyrants, Moses before Pharaoh, Elias before Ahab. Lastly, also, He brings them forward, that the disciples should emulate their privileges, and be meek as Moses, and zealous as Elias.

Hilary: Also that Moses and Elias only out of the whole number of the saints stood with Christ, means, that Christ, in His kingdom, is between the Law and the Prophets; for He shall judge Israel in the presence of the same by whom He was preached to them.

Origen: However, if any man discerns a spiritual sense in the Law agreeing with the teaching of Jesus, and in the Prophets finds “the hidden wisdom of Christ,” [1 Cor 2:7] he beholds Moses and Elias in the same glory with Jesus.

Jerome: It is to be remembered also, that when the Scribes and Pharisees asked signs from heaven, He would not give any; but now, to increase the Apostles’ faith, He gives a sign; Elias descends from heaven, whiter he was gone up, and Moses arises from hell; as Ahaz is bidden [Isa 7:10] by Esaias to ask him a sign in the heaven above, or in the depth beneath.

 

[Jakub]

Though painful to say & think about, it will be at least 10 years after the new Roman Missal is issued to start seeing things done correctly.

Don’t forget many have been converted or raised according to the existing Missal, about 36 years of the New Mass.

I brought my missal that I used when I was very young, My Sunday Missal, circa 1956, and used it during Mass, there is a big difference sad to say.

Of course Cardinal Mahony will do his best to delay any changes to the Mass and other issues as they exist today.

james

 

[Nota_Bene]

Jakub:

Though painful to say & think about, it will be at least 10 years after the new Roman Missal is issued to start seeing things done correctly.

Don’t forget many have been converted or raised according to the existing Missal, about 36 years of the New Mass.

I brought my missal that I used when I was very young, My Sunday Missal, circa 1956, and used it during Mass, there is a big difference sad to say.

Of course Cardinal Mahony will do his best to delay any changes to the Mass and other issues as they exist today.

james

Mahony will be retired and living in Newport Beach by then…

 

[Nota_Bene]

EddieArent:

Go order a copy of Life on The Rock and listen for yourself or are you too lazy to do that? I told you the episode was from this week. Have a blast finding it. If you call my comments garbage, then fine. It’s a compliment to me. I don’t need your approval last time I checked. I’m not going to follow blindly when folks are in error. St. Peter was put in his place by** St. Paul** and all wen well, but if you say something today against EWTN or anyone (or organization) else you’re agaianst the Church and everything.

You’re not St. Paul. Poor analogy.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Two things:

1. Medjugorje is not an approved apparition. E. Michael Jones has done a thourough job of debunking this Satanic nonsense in the pages of his magazines Fidelity/Culture Wars. Some info is available online:

culturewars.com/

1. Sr. Lucia attended the new Mass. In fact, I watched part of her funeral Mass from Portugal on EWTN today. It was beautiful. Communion in the hand was distrubuted too, btw.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

BackRowBaritone:

Here’s my trial balloon: Both Latin AND the vernacular are NECESSARY for a fuller understanding of the dual nature of our Lord. Latin emphasizes the majesty of His divinity, English emphasizes the humility of His humanity. Ideally (…I know, I know…), Latin Mass could be offered on Feast days and Solemnities as well as Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter; during Ordinary Time, Mass would be exclusively in English. Perhaps Latin Mass could be the first offering on Sunday morning, because those folks who as enthused about Latin would be the most willing to get to early Mass on time.

Several sensible people have noted that this would require a substantial amount of catechesis, something which is sorely deficient in the Church in the United States. Also, so few priests are able to celebrate Mass in Latin (willingness is another matter) that this is an admittedly theoretical exercise. My pastor celebrated Mass in Latin on All Souls Day and, as “traditional” as he is, his Latin pronunciation needed more practice. Even so, he did a good job as he always does, and I hope he will offer Mass in Latin more often.

On the issue of TLM or NO: when our Holy Father celebrates Mass, which one does he use? Pope John Paul II is a man of the Council, and he uses the Mass of Paul VI. Sorry … I agree that the Tridentine Mass is glorious, but if the Novus Ordo is good enough for John Paul the Great, it’s good enough for me. I understand Patrick Madrid has a new book out on our schismatic betheren called “Holier than the Pope” - it may be worth seeking out. Even Fr. Peter Stravinskas, an advocate for Mass in Latin, has stated that the Tridentine Mass was in serious need of revision, and he has never celebrated the old Mass.

O.K., friends, you can start shooting now …

I understand Archbishop Lefebvre was also in favor of some revision of the TLM. Obviously, he didn’t want it to go so far, but at one time he thought revision was warranted. I’d be interested to see some thoughts from Traditionalists on how the Mass as it existed in 1962 could have been revised in accordance with their thinking. Sadly, most Traditionalists nowadays consider it such a sacred cow that to even speak of revision is considered heresy. So I doubt that line of thought will ever be pursued.

Regarding the new Mass, I have a more ambitious agenda. If we are truly going to be following the “Spirit of Vatican II” then shouldn’t we be following all of Vatican II, not just those parts that appeal to us? Of particular note:

The use of the Latin language, with due respect to particular law, is to be preserved in the Latin rites. Sacrosanctum Concilium, 36 (1)

My contention is that every Mass, said everyday in the Latin rite should have some Latin. Obviously, this would be impossible now since most priests didn’t study Latin and wouldn’t have a clue.

However, if we limited Latin to the part of the Canon between the “Sanctus” and the “Per ipsum † , et cum ipso †…” we would limit the amount of Latin a priest would need to learn. He could even revert to English for the “Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith” so the people wouldn’t even have to know any Latin.

This would also have the advantage of eliminating the argument made by some radicals that the consecration as translated into English and other languages is invalid. If every priest in the world is saying the words of consecration in Latin, thus falls another of the rad’s straw men.

In my ideal world, all of the Ordinary of the Mass would be said in Latin, while only the Propers would be said in English. Again, with some exceptions. I think the Our Father, for instance, should be said in English, if we can get people to stop grabbing my hand! Also, I wouldn’t mind the Gloria and Credo in English, either. I much prefer the Latin Confiteor, however.

I’d also like it if they restored at least some of the prayers at the foot of the altar to the new Mass.

All of the above is personal preference, of course. Bottom line, I agree with you. If it’s good enough for the Pope, it’s good enough for me. I’d just like to find one Mass in my diocese that is said in English *exactly *the way the Church wants it said. I’m still looking. Happily, I live in a large diocese. There are dozens of churches yet to explore.

 

[bear06]

My question is (1)what percent of Catholics know the names of the various Masses?

I imagine most think of them in terms of “the Mass” and the “Latin Mass”. Not really sure why it matters who knows the coined terms.

(2)There are six to eight posters who seem adamant about Novus Ordo, why?

I don’t know if I am one of those people who you are referring to but I can tell you that, as I’ve said on numerous occaisions, my current status in life (young mother), is not very compatible with following the TLM. (refer to my earlier posts to see what this means). I simply want to be able to know exactly when the greatest miracle is happening!

(3)Why would anyone be defiant against the traditional Mass said in Latin? Who are you speaking of? I’m not defiant against any Mass said lawfully and that does not breed rebellion on either side of the coin.

 

[bear06]

TNT:

You have a “interminable” wait coming your way. 37 years and nothing on the horizon. Like the SDA’s and their awaiting the 2nd coming…any day now, yep.

I gave up on that in 2001…TLM, here I come.

Hellooooooooo? Once again I point out a little history for you. Don’t you realize that it took over 100 years to implement many of the things Trent called for and you’re suprised we’re still waiting after 37 years?

 

[bear06]

I find this thread has gotten rather ironic. The original question has almost all but stopped being answered and we’re just back to attacking the NO, Pauline Mass, Normative Mass or whatever else you want to call it. I find it quite funny that people who have similar thoughts to mine are accused of constantly attacking the Tridentine. I’m still in wonder about how people are coming to this conclusion.

oooo, thanks for pointing that out! I always just assumed obedience and submission were the same. That was a good way of differentiating the two.

BTW, Genesis, thanks for actually acknowledging my post. I’m not used to most actually wanting to look at PA. I started a whole thread on Pastor Aeternus and TNT was the only one who bothered to sort of respond. I believe that his response was that he’d let others respond. He thought for sure more Trads would jump in and yet the crickets are still chirping over there. Obedience and submission are not the same and I think that’s why so many on this thread like to ignore PA.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

1. "Catholics dont know hardly a lick about the Bible"
Catholcs know the WHOLE of the Bible, but can’t tell you the verse location That’s why God gave us Search Engines)… Prot’s. know 1/3 of the bible and can tell you the location of the verse.
2. Let’s debunk this false idea about “more bible in the NOM”:
Here is the Proper for today in the TLM:
That’s 7 readings by my count vs NOM 3 count. The Church has always “connected” the readings.

TNT,
Thanks for pointing this TLM readings/reflections stuff out, its news to me.

About what I said about horror stories, maybe its where I live, but they exist. I have heard it all from Catholics, one that takes the cake is the one I heard that the Ark of the Covenant was what Noah entered into!
I know exactly what you are saying about stuff like verse location, I didnt start reading the Bible with a rational mind till I was heart and soul Catholic, I know a lot more stuff even though I cant tell the verse and chapter off the top of my head. One thing I noticed is that the Church doesnt make a big deal about verse numbers because that is a distant second to why we have the Bible as a teacher not a lawyers notepad. But at the end of the day a lot of Catholics I see are weak in terms of what the Bible says.

Now when you say Catholics know the whole Bible, your 100% right. There are and always have been Catholics who know the Bible in and out. If you measured any Protestant’s grasp of the Bible to those well educated Catholics they would find there is no contest, the Protestant by definition cant accept the whole Bible. I think we are talking past eachother, because in the age of search engines and higher literacy rates I see Catholics who dont know the Bible. And that the time tested Jesuit schools that existed before reading rainbow and sesame street used time tested boot camp teaching methods to turn out well educated human beings who knew the Bible and became leaders, but those were a few of the lucky ones. The rest sat out in the cold.

No hard feelings?

 

[TNT]

No hard feelings?

Not at all.
This is off-thread, but on your well stated points:
When there were common Catholic schools run by religious, the Catholic learned a great deal should he choose to pay attention.
All that education source is GONE.
But, during that time, although there were some Prot. schools, the vast majority used the “twice-a-week” bible study classes to educate on their faith. Everyone is expected to attend the class appropriate for their state of religious education.
When the Catholic school system shut down, (by ONLY pure unadulterated coincidence), shortly after VATII’s “updating”, the parishes replaced it with…NOTHING that worked anywhere near as well as the Prot. bible study agenda.
The parishes who give a damn, must follow this plan for raising catechesis back up to, or exceeding the level of Catholic schools. It also creates a fellowship around the Teachings of the Faith, wherein they get support for persevering in the Faith.
The Newchurch refuses to admit this, and instead sponsors countless “ecumenical” agendas and gnostic spirituality conferences.
IMO, of course.
ps. When I say Newchurch I define it as:
The rulers from the top all the way down to the “nuns” who control the agenda of the Church, whose purpose is to destroy Oldchurch.

 

[Joe-S]

I think the perfect mass would be the TLM except in english. This way I could pray, sing and exalt from my heart and not flipping back and forth through the missal trying to keep up. I can’t imagine Christ had in mind a liturgy in a language other than the people. He is not a God of confusion.

Joe

 

[Catholic_Dude]

TNT:

All that education source is GONE. Its not just the schools its everything in general. Look at what they call art and music now days, they cant even come out with new ideas for movies, thats why they have to make a part 2,3,4,etc. Now they are at the point where they go into the vault at mgm and paramount and take the almost sacred classics and “remake” them with ADHD actors and slut actresses and desecrate the movie that was once a classic.
But, during that time, although there were some Prot. schools, the vast majority used the “twice-a-week” bible study classes to educate on their faith. Everyone is expected to attend the class appropriate for their state of religious education.
When the Catholic school system shut down there are still some places where the nuns have no problem punishing the children with rulers without fear of “abuse” “lawyers” “suing”,etc., (by ONLY pure unadulterated coincidence), shortly after VATII’s “updating”, the parishes replaced it with…NOTHING that worked anywhere near as well as the Prot. bible study agenda. i.e. not even the protestants felt like studying, so they came up with the all inclusive TNIV Bible and Christian Rap music!
The parishes who give a damn, must follow this plan for raising catechesis back up to, or exceeding the level of Catholic schools. It also creates a fellowship around the Teachings of the Faith, wherein they get support for persevering in the Faith.
The Newchurch refuses to admit this, and instead sponsors The dont sponsor anything, it is naked theft the amount of money I see wasted for “education”, both public and private. I live in Oregon where they are very close to putting in state sponsored gambling so they can help pay for “schools”, its insane, HELP!countless “ecumenical” agendas and gnostic spirituality conferences. What you dont want the children taking drama, modern art and sex-ed?, in this day and age they need to take comparative religions right? At least let them take intro to psychology. Your no fun.
IMO, of course. I say fact/strong-case not opinion for most of this.
ps. When I say Newchurch I define it as:
The rulers from the top all the way down to the “nuns” who control the agenda of the Church, whose purpose is to destroy Oldchurch. I dont know what to say, we’re in a bind./QUOTE]

 

[katolik]

Joe-S:

I think the perfect mass would be the TLM except in english. This way I could pray, sing and exalt from my heart and not flipping back and forth through the missal trying to keep up. I can’t imagine Christ had in mind a liturgy in a language other than the people. He is not a God of confusion.

Joe

Did you remember that God punished us with Babel? It’s not God’s fault…

Can you imagine an ICEL translation of the TLM? Horrors.
Stay with the original

 

[katolik]

bear06:

Hellooooooooo? Once again I point out a little history for you. Don’t you realize that it took over 100 years to implement many of the things Trent called for and you’re suprised we’re still waiting after 37 years?

Yeah, I know we will have a “united church” of lutherans,anglicans, catholics,orthodox,jews,muslims,hindus when Vatican II is fully implimented! Let us see what happens, when “Vatican II” is “fully implemented”.

 

[TNT]

To Mama Bear and all NOM lovers:
What I like about the NOM:
1. It is VERY flexible…it reminds me of silly putty in that regard.
2. You can tell a sincere NOM attendee as they will have the latest documents on liturgical abuses in hand.
3. It can be disguised as just about anything other than a Sacrifice of the Mass.
4. You can go to any ethnic neighborhood or non english speaking country and not understand a word as there is no english translation from their “missals” and no Latin, which I can understand.
5. You can go to 20 different parishes and learn 20 new songs you never heard before. Kinda like flipping thru Fm music stations.
6. You can find out the latest fashions in eucharistic vessels and musical instruments and amplifiers.
7. You can take in a dance musical while attending…free.
8. I don’t have to change posture when receiving from the way I receive at a McDonald’s counter.
9. One thing I don’t like is that you can’t avoid a traffic jam in the parking lot if you leave right after communion.
10.You can take your Lutheran relatives to it and they won’t know the difference, if it is “reverent”.
And finally:
11. It made me appreciate the TLM like never before.

ps. Nearly all my posts originate after a fitful sleep filled with nightmares…Except for the Apologetics. Those are all plagiaries.

 

[pnewton]

TNT:

ps. Nearly all my posts originate after a fitful sleep filled with nightmares…Except for the Apologetics. Those are all plagiaries.

Then I hope you got back to bed. I thought this thread was supposed to be about what people liked. That is the title. Someone is liable to take you serious and hold up your list as if it actual reflects reality. It is all just a dream. Go back to sleep.

 

[BulldogCath]

John Paul the great???

I love and respect our Holy Father as I must-but great is not an adjective I would use to describe him. Maybe some food for thought on these past 25 years as to why I and many feel this way:

• Could not work out a compromise with Archbishop Lefebvre and therefore an entire wing of the church has gone-while he cuddles up to schismatics, Protestants, Jews, Moslems, and allows Hindus to desecrate Fatima.
• 1000 canonizations during his pontificate-what is the meaning of that? More than all of the Popes added together over the past 5 centuies.
• The fall of communism-Had nothing to do with it, or very little-Communism was brought down by Gorby, Regan, and the arms race bankrupting the country. For that matter-It was from Vatican II on that the church-Pope John XXIII to get the Russian Orthodox to attend the council-signed a pact with Russia for the Vatican to no longer talk down about Communism.
• Falling away of the faithful-mass attendance at all time lows
• Priesthood and seminaries in a shambles
• Sexual abuse scandal-no leadership whatsoever on his part.

BackRowBaritone:

I posted the following as a new thread about a week ago, but only 2 people responded. Perhaps these ideas will draw more comments as part of this thread.

I’ve been reading a lot of material, here and elsewhere, about the relative merits of the Tridentine Mass versus the Novus Ordo Missae, and between Mass in Latin vs. Mass in English - some quite scholarly, some purely polemic. It occured to me that this was yet another case in which Blessed John Henry Newman could be of help. In his Apologia Pro Vita Sua (if I remember correctly), Newman introduces the idea of “the Catholic AND.” During his examination of Catholicism, he discovered that Protestant thought is often expressed in terms of “either/or” - either Faith OR Works, either Scripture OR Tradition. On the other hand, Catholic thought is expressed in terms of “both/and” - Faith AND Works, Scripture AND Tradition. I’m wondering if the same “Catholic AND” could be applied to this controversy as
well.

Here’s my trial balloon: Both Latin AND the vernacular are NECESSARY for a fuller understanding of the dual nature of our Lord. Latin emphasizes the majesty of His divinity, English emphasizes the humility of His humanity. Ideally (…I know, I know…), Latin Mass could be offered on Feast days and Solemnities as well as Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter; during Ordinary Time, Mass would be exclusively in English. Perhaps Latin Mass could be the first offering on Sunday morning, because those folks who as enthused about Latin would be the most willing to get to early Mass on time.

Several sensible people have noted that this would require a substantial amount of catechesis, something which is sorely deficient in the Church in the United States. Also, so few priests are able to celebrate Mass in Latin (willingness is another matter) that this is an admittedly theoretical exercise. My pastor celebrated Mass in Latin on All Souls Day and, as “traditional” as he is, his Latin pronunciation needed more practice. Even so, he did a good job as he always does, and I hope he will offer Mass in Latin more often.

On the issue of TLM or NO: when our Holy Father celebrates Mass, which one does he use? Pope John Paul II is a man of the Council, and he uses the Mass of Paul VI. Sorry … I agree that the Tridentine Mass is glorious, but if the Novus Ordo is good enough for John Paul the Great, it’s good enough for me. I understand Patrick Madrid has a new book out on our schismatic betheren called “Holier than the Pope” - it may be worth seeking out. Even Fr. Peter Stravinskas, an advocate for Mass in Latin, has stated that the Tridentine Mass was in serious need of revision, and he has never celebrated the old Mass.

O.K., friends, you can start shooting now …

 

[pnewton]

BulldogCath:

John Paul the great???

I love and respect our Holy Father as I must-but great is not an adjective I would use to describe him.

Why I have a more elevated view of the Holy Father, I totally agree that it is up to the next generation to make such determinations. I am sure his Holiness would not approve of such a premature evalutation.

 

[Asimis]

Yes, I went last Sunday and I found it to be true to the Tradition of The Church and also incrddibly reverence. It really reflected that one believed what was being done and what was said. As such I have decided to go to it all Sundays and to probably stop going ot the NO.

BulldogCath:

God bless you

At first it may be a bit overwhelming-but like some of the masses from the East-the High Mass is full of reverence and beauty and Tradition.